Rob2012 Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Boris has chickened out after being outmanoeuvred by Cameron and Gove. Hope it's the last we see of this fraudster. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 My prediction (with just a soupcon of wishful thinking) - There will be a general election in the UK this year and we'll end up with a coalition government. The Lib Dems will make huge gains on the promise not to leave the EU and also as a result of the disgust the public feels towards Labour and the Tories - especially now Boris has been shown to be a naive moron and has withdrawn from the leadership race. We'll either not leave the EU at all, or we'll leave and return relatively quickly (assuming the EU wants us back which is certainly not certain). Its also being reported that whoever the next PM is won't be able to trigger Article 50 (signalling a legal intention to leave the EU) without the consent of Parliament - and we know that almost two thirds of MPs want to remain in the EU. Fingers crossed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 If only, Ripley... There doesn't seem to be much interest with the Tories to hold an election, and even the current anti-Leave MPs can't really ignore the vote unless they want to trigger mass riots. Catch 22? I'm sorry for the 16 million people who did their best to stop this madness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 If only, Ripley... There doesn't seem to be much interest with the Tories to hold an election, and even the current anti-Leave MPs can't really ignore the vote unless they want to trigger mass riots. I think you overestimate how much most people rank the EU as an issue. If a Brexit triggering vote in the House of Commons looks like it could trigger a collapse in the markets and leave us - essentially - with no trade agreements to speak of, then people may start thinking pragmatically and coming round to the point of view that they were lied to about the impact of a LEAVE vote. It won't take a huge proportion of LEAVE voters to change their mind for a REMAIN consensus to emerge. I'm not saying this is likely, but I'm done with making predictions about all this. A few hours ago a PM Johnson looked nearly inevitable. Now he's decided not to run for the position. How can anyone predict what's going to happen months ahead when we can't even predict what the next day will bring at the moment?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshi Posted June 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Someone posted this to Facebook & an article about it appeared on my browser front page - it basically sums up the colossal clusterf**k that is British politics right now: So, let me get this straight... the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they'd all done nothing to help them. Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead. Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. Clear? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) North American clusterfuckage: ....don't feel too fucked politician-wise....self centered idiots are the norm. ....smooth move little Enrique. Obama equally idiotic in Cuba Clusterfucker in Chief Edited June 30, 2016 by paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arwebb Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 While I agree that this disaster was in the making way before Cameron took office, I couldn't disagree stronger with the notion that Cameron acted "courageously". In fact, he played a false play: First, he nourished the Eurosceptic feelings of large parts of his party, nagging about the EU for years - just to become the standard bearer of the Leave campaign in the last few months before the referendum. If instead, he had stood up against his parliamentary party and said: "You can expect a referendum on such a crap.py and plainly stupid idea like leaving the EU only over my dead body", now that would have been courageous! But no, he hoped to get the best of both worlds: the benefits of staying in the EU and keeping his job, even after having destroyed the EU's reputation among many of his fellow countrymen even further over the course of several years. Bad idea, mate, really bad idea. Instead, Britain experienced an awful week since the referendum - and that's why I'm still disappointed and angry as hell about this senseless decision, even one week later. "I hate to see Britain in decline" - those were Margaret Thatcher's words when Britain was the "sick man of Europe" in 1979. And now I share her sentiment, even if it came from a different political motivation and ideology than mine, while Britain turns to become the "sick man of Europe" again. Even if the auspices are somewhat different than 37 years ago, Britain now is not as strong as it could be. Large parts of its electorate believed in blatant lies ("Let's give the 350 million pounds to the NHS instead", "Let's take control of our borders again", "Let's use the benefits of the free world, we don't need the Common Market") made by political clowns who have absolutely no clue how to manage the Brexit negotiations with the EU. It hurts to see that a growing number of Brits seem to realise how they were betrayed, and even the yellow press which was very much pro-Brexit before the referendum seems to be appalled and to turn to a more differentiated and even critical view towards the Brexit. This is what I criticised one week ago: Britain (or at least those parts of its electorate who voted "Leave") is belittling itself, while it actually could be the respected and strong international partner it has been for so many years. What an utter shame! I think your argument about Cameron is flawed, primarily because it does not account for the threat posed to the Conservatives by UKIP. We shouldn't forget that UKIP won the European elections here two years ago as well as two by-elections in the run-up to the general election and polled more than four million votes across the country (making it the third largest party in terms of share of the popular vote) in May last year. I don't think there's any question that UKIP would have done much better without the Tory commitment to a re-negotiation and a referendum. Nor does it address the build-up over years, even decades, of anti-EU feeling within sections of the British population. That can't all be pinned on Cameron, or any of the other politicians who participated in this campaign. That is the result of we, the people, not being given a say for more than 40 years and the view, developed over that time and through the actions of too many politicians to name, that the European institutions are not what we signed up for and we were never asked to consent to the changes that have been made. As for the second part of your post, to say it has been an extraordinary week here in Britain is putting it very mildly indeed. But it is, in my mind, too early to say that we are "belittling" ourselves as a country, even if I do share that fear. There has been, on all sides, a lack of coherence in working out what should happen now that has been rather disturbing at times. But the flux that has been created is also an opportunity for everyone to work out the right path. That is just as important for Europe as it is for Britain because the perception of damaging oneself is not unique to Britain. Earlier today, I saw a tweet about a Dutch poll saying a majority there now favoured 'Nexit'. That is the threat the EU has to tackle and it belittles itself even more if it fails to do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arwebb Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 If only, Ripley... There doesn't seem to be much interest with the Tories to hold an election, and even the current anti-Leave MPs can't really ignore the vote unless they want to trigger mass riots. Catch 22? I'm sorry for the 16 million people who did their best to stop this madness. This is why I said there needed to be a pretty swift general election last Friday and I haven't changed my mind. It feels like the possibility has receded following Johnson's decision to back out of the leadership election (one which I was delighted by) but, as Rob alluded to, it is impossible to predict what is going to happen. Having said that, I will suggest that what happens in the Labour party is going to be crucial to whether we get an early election or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 arwebb, I would just say one thing to you back your argument about Cameron doing as he did because of the electoral threat posed by the UKIP. That is what is fundamentally wrong with democracies. Because at their heart, they are Machiavellian. Elected officials are so scared to make the tough decisions, that they just make decisions that will appease the most people so that they can stay in power. Instead of saying, you elected me and my government to lead this country in the ways we see it best. Its, I'll do whatever gives me the best chance to be elected. And what is transpired today with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove is the reason so many people hate politics and think politicians are all a bunch of self-serving slim balls. When the reality is usually the opposite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexjc Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 If you want to see how messy Democracy can be in the Modern Era... Read "World Order - Reflections on the Character of Nations and the Course of History" by Henry Kissinger. (2014). Explains why the dominos fell towards the Brexit Crisis, although at the time of writing still not predicted. (The Syrian refugee crisis as a result of Arab Spring, the tipping trigger to pretty much everything wrong with the world at the moment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Imagine this scenario- Merkel in Berlin, May in London and Le Pen in Paris - talk about girl power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Not to forget Mrs C in Washington...Though hopefully we'll be spared Le Pen! I'm not too optimistic about that however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) You don't even have to go abroad, We could easily have the the Conservatives, Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, and Greens lead by women by Autumn. Female PM, leader of Scottish Parliament and NI First Minister. Edited July 1, 2016 by Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Read on the BBC that some Eurocrat is saying that the UK will need to first divorce and then negotiate a trade deal. That effectively means that by the time the divorce is settled there will be no time left during the 2 year timescale set by article 50 to negotiate a trade deal. We'll be truly out in the cold and totally hobbled economically. Maybe we could sell Russia our new aircraft carriers to bring in some money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nacre Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 The UK may be better off focusing on the global economy rather than the European economy anyway. The UK's trade is already shifting towards the rest of the world. Unemployment in the EU = few people to sell goods and services to. The unfortunate thing for the UK is that the correct course of action depends on what will happen with the Euro and the terms of access to the trading bloc. And even Brussels doesn't know the answers to those questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekekelso Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Britain says it won't invoke article 50 until it has negotiated the replacement. The rest of Europe says it won't negotiate until Britain has invoked article 50. This isn't going to end well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexjc Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 The UK may be better off focusing on the global economy rather than the European economy anyway. The UK's trade is already shifting towards the rest of the world. Unemployment in the EU = few people to sell goods and services to. The unfortunate thing for the UK is that the correct course of action depends on what will happen with the Euro and the terms of access to the trading bloc. And even Brussels doesn't know the answers to those questions. Nothing wrong with standing alone...New Zealand has been doing it for 40 years ever since UK walked away and joined the EEC... Of course being in a huge Bloc such as the EU on trade terms is a mega bonus...The work will be having ton reset all those deals around the world again...and you ain't going to get any favours from anyone...Its just all hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 You don't even have to go abroad, We could easily have the the Conservatives, Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, and Greens lead by women by Autumn. Female PM, leader of Scottish Parliament and NI First Minister. It's not a bad situation at all. Just a few years ago - jeez, it seems like ages ago now in Aussie political history - I was chuffed to be ruled at one point by a woman NSW premier - Kristina Keneally, with a woman NSW Governor - Marie Bashir, a woman Prime Minister - Julia Gillard, and a woman Governor General - Quentin Bryce. And all under the aegis of my sovereign lady Elizabeth II. Good times. Girl power rules. Don't feel too bad, we don't have a real PM at this moment. And not much idea when we will get one, or who it'll be. Likely it'll be Malcolm Turnbull again, but the way we've been going through them, lord knows how long he'll last at the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexjc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 THE sh!tstirrer has cut and run. Nigel Farage has just resigned as Leader of UKIP. Citing that the job he set out to achieve, pulling UK out of the EU, is done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 THE sh!tstirrer has cut and run. Nigel Farage has just resigned as Leader of UKIP. Citing that the job he set out to achieve, pulling UK out of the EU, is done... He should also quit as MEP then, but will happily enjoy benefits from this while they last. The hypocrites have pushed the UK into chaos and uncertainty and now abandon the sinking ship. Hopefully all those Leave voters will finally realise who they followed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 But if Brexit was not a BINDING referendum, then why is everybody just following it? I've just read that legal experts say that Article 50 is NOT enforceable. Forgive me if I am misinformed, am not really following this matter so deeply; just very superficially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatinXTC Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 But if Brexit was not a BINDING referendum, then why is everybody just following it? I've just read that legal experts say that Article 50 is NOT enforceable. Forgive me if I am misinformed, am not really following this matter so deeply; just very superficially. Yes I read that it's not exactly binding either. But even if it isn't binding and it doesn't have to become law, to ignore it and not do anything about the results could potentially make matters worse and bring civil instability to England and maybe even Wales. This is what their people voted, this is what needs to be addressed. Similar to why the Republicans have mostly stopped fighting over trying to disqualify Trump's party nomination. The RNC could very well drop him and elect someone else if they want to, but that POS was voted in and they would be going against what their party voted on. That would further divide the party more than Trump already has. BTW, I saw this on Bill Maher the other day this British bitch Louise Mensch is just lying through her teeth about the bus ads being completely truthful when in fact Farage said they were inaccurate the days after the UK voted to leave the EU. And here he is admitting that those ads were completely false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) A thought provoking articleThe Atlantic - A 'Second-Class' European in a Post-Brexit World by Zuzana Boehmová Edited July 5, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) A thought provoking articleThe Atlantic - A 'Second-Class' European in a Post-Brexit World by Zuzana BoehmováVery interesting article CAF. I read it and feel a great yearning for the openness and optimism of the early 2000s when the eastern block joined the European Union. In some respects it seems like a prosperous magical time now. But that was a dream based on the euphoria of the end of the Cold War. The reality in the uk after a decade of mass migration is that the country is not coping well with this influx. It's not based on xenophobia but on the real life experiences of people who struggle to find well paid work and get a doctor's appointment. We are a country of 65 million people on a small island the size of Collarado. Our land mass is half the size of France which has the same sized population. Big increases in population have a big and more immediate impact than elsewhere. In the EU we had the option to travel to other countries to escape the worst effects of the migration but is that really what the EU is about, letting one group of migrants squeeze a host society so much that they chose to leave? England has the same population density as India and it's no surprise that the Netherlands is also divided on the eu because it is even more densely populated. Germany's population is dropping sharply - you need more people to move there. We need less migrants, but we do need them. This article shows that the UK is a popular choice for migrants due to language and cultural attractions. The level of migration into the uk is unsustainable and this is why we have the wrong result in the referendum. The U.K. is not an ethic grouping or tribe of people - it's a space for likeminded people to live in. The trouble is there's just not enough space for everyone who wants to come and share it. It should be free movement of labour in the EU - not free movement of people. People should have a job to come to and they should leave if they don't have a job or means to support themselves or until they gained citizenship after 4 years. I really don't think that is too much to ask for and would allow the UK to remain in the EU. Edited July 5, 2016 by Ripley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 There are so many thoughts going around in my head - and i want to reply "appropriate" toward your post, Ripley - please give me some time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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