Jump to content

UK. EU. Yes? No? Referendum 23 June.


Recommended Posts

As the sun sets on this momentous day, I feel as stunned by what has happened now as I did in the early hours of this morning. My local count was declared shortly after 5am today. About half an hour later, I left the hall and found a gloriously bright and sunny June morning. It was the sort of morning that makes you think things are OK. And yet it is hard to see how things will ever be quite the same again.

We are now entering a period of great uncertainty, one that conceivably ends with a rump Britain (perhaps confined to England and Wales) outside the European Union as Scotland and Northern Ireland choose different paths. I do not blame those who would seek alternative constitutional arrangements for the latter two nations for pursuing those aims in the light of a result where their peoples chose the opposite option to those of England and Wales. But, as much as I believe the British people collectively took the wrong path in voting to leave, independence for Scotland or a united Ireland are, by no means, automatic consequences of what happened yesterday. Ultimately, it is in all our interests, both inside and outside Britain, to work constructively together to achieve both national and common purposes. That can still be done if the collective will is there.

That is why the responses of leaders like Chancellor Merkel and President Obama to the result are far more encouraging to me than those of the EU leadership. In responding as they did and insisting that the union of 27, in their words, "is the framework of our common political future", they show a fundamental lack of understanding of why the British people voted as they did. Much will be made of the discussion over immigration in particular, but this vote, at its heart, is a rejection of the European project.

More than once during the campaign, I heard Leave activists refer to a target date of 2025 for the completion of political and fiscal union. From that, they argued, this was the last chance for us to take back control of who governs our affairs. That was, and is, a powerful message and unless Messrs Juncker, Tusk and the rest actually realise they and what they represent are the problem, this will not be the end of the story. We are already seeing exit movements developing in other nations and one of the MPs in the area I work, who campaigned for Leave, predicted to me today that the EU will collapse and its members will return to more of a Common Market-style of arrangement which, in his view, would be in Britain's interest to participate in. That seems a long way off, but it doesn't seem quite so far-fetched now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 360
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Johnson's leadership campaign has so far cost £130bn

I yet have to recover - yesterday, I was honestly depressed about the result. While it was apparent that the Leave camp might win for weeks, I regained my old hope that reason (and therefore, the Rema

While I don't want to ignore the damage and risk, saying that London will now be isolated in the world is not accurate. New York does not have freedom of movement with any country other than its domestic market and it has no trouble attracting professionals from all over the world. Merely leaving the EU does not in any way doom London or the UK, even if it does mean short term uncertainty and loss in financial markets.

The question is how nasty does the EU want to make the divorce? If they really want to they can make UK-Europe trade disappear entirely. But are the countries of Europe really willing to embargo or fight a tariff war with the UK, especially when their own economies are circling in the toilet?

The United Kingdom only has trade agreements as a member of the European Union. All that will be gone, the TPP, Canada, the USA and the Eastern flank of the EU has already said it will not be a priority to establish trade pacts with an isolated United Kingdom. London will be a city in a country where it is still 1972, it will take a decade or more for Whitehall and Westminster to re-establish the trade links London currently enjoys. In that time Berlin, Paris and Dublin will become attractive alternatives to maintaining European headquarters in London that doesn't have easy access to the common market.

And no arwebb, this was racist, xenophobic Little England giving the middle finger to London, Scotland and Europe. Just like those anti-EU parties in the rest of Europe are just as racist and xenophobic as the UKIP. This was Luddites smashing the machines of progress in the name of antiquated ideals and nostalgia for far worse era of the human experiment.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/_TP_/edition/comment/pity-voters-deceived-by-the-pied-pipers-of-brexit-vz3hpfm9x

Edited by Faster
Link to post
Share on other sites

The United Kingdom only has trade agreements as a member of the European Union. All that will be gone, the TPP, Canada, the USA and the Eastern flank of the EU has already said it will not be a priority to establish trade pacts with an isolated United Kingdom.

Not a priority to negotiate with an isolated UK? It gets worse. The FU crowd in Europe is suggesting they aren't going to think about dealing with the UK until the UK figures out what it is. Is Scotland in? What about all the other pieces? Until all that is sorted out, they've got other trade arrangements to deal with. Once it's settled, then an isolated UK (er, England+Wales?) gets in the back of the negotiations line

Or maybe saner heads will prevail and the UK and EU will come together to work out a deal where each side compromised in the interest of what's best for everybody. I'm sure prime minister Boris will get right on that,.

See ya. Pay up your share of the national debt, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Have fun manning your border with Mexico, paying social security and medicare payments and hope you enjoy those Texans v Cowboys football matches.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The United Kingdom only has trade agreements as a member of the European Union. All that will be gone, the TPP, Canada, the USA and the Eastern flank of the EU has already said it will not be a priority to establish trade pacts with an isolated United Kingdom. London will be a city in a country where it is still 1972, it will take a decade or more for Whitehall and Westminster to re-establish the trade links London currently enjoys. In that time Berlin, Paris and Dublin will become attractive alternatives to maintaining European headquarters in London that doesn't have easy access to the common market.

They have two years to work out an agreement. And companies were perfectly free to choose Berlin, Dublin or Paris before but chose London in part because of the EU's own economic concerns. Even if no trade agreement at all is reached I doubt many major corporations will be relocating to Paris with French unions now demanding a 31 hour work week, for example.

I hope their pickup trucks are NCB protected, because the US will nuke on its own territory before it lets any state leave. Perhaps Dallas and Houston have forgotten what happened to Atlanta in 1864.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They have two years to work out an agreement.

Well, what two years? Why should be there two more years that UK politicians are sent by the UK government as bureaucrats to Brussels? Especially when these bureaucrats were blamed all the time from a British government that they are not elected....

Why should be there two more years members of European Parliament from the UK and decide about laws, which won't affect their country anymore...

The earlier the UK is out the better - and what kind of agreement? The leave supporter spoke about an agreement comparable to Norway or Switzerlamd - are they aware (or did they tell thei voters) that both countries have to pay billions to the EU to take part? And they don't get the money back like Margaret Thatcher...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I yet have to recover - yesterday, I was honestly depressed about the result. While it was apparent that the Leave camp might win for weeks, I regained my old hope that reason (and therefore, the Remain camp) will prevail during the last few days before the referendum, bolstered by the rather positive opinion polls and betting odds. I really hoped that the murder of Jo Cox (even if it might not have been motivated by the referendum at all) would change the mood in Britain to a more contemplative, less cynical and even hateful atmosphere. And now it hurts a lot to see how this referendum leaves behind a divided country, regardless of whether this will lead to a split-up of the United Kingdom or not.

Even if I certainly don't agree with everything that comes out of Brussels: This was truly a senseless referendum, motivated only by David Cameron's need to secure his power and his office against an increasingly divided and (in parts) highly irrational Conservative Party. And so it's only cold comfort in these grim times that ironically, Cameron resulted in losing his power and his office by means of this very referendum.

While he deserved to be punished, Great Britain sure did not. Great Britain (and I use the word "Great" intentionally) always was a very important factor in world politics, and while the Brits kept complaining about the EU throughout all those years, they always knew what their responsibility was. The Brits displayed greatness and responsibility in World War II when they helped liberate this very continent from tyranny and death, and they did so in the years since World War II.

And even if I know that this referendum doesn't have to be the end of everything that made Britain great as a international player, I regret very much how the Leave voters decided to belittle their own country they are (allegedly) so proud of. This referendum sure doesn't make Britain greater, and that is the thing that I regret most (besides the fact that the young, rather Europe-friendly generation of Britain was shrugged off in this referendum), since I have a huge amount of respect and even affection for Britain, its culture, its traditions, its strength, its humour and its role in (also recent) history.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, what two years? Why should be there two more years that UK politicians are sent by the UK government as bureaucrats to Brussels? Especially when these bureaucrats were blamed all the time from a British government that they are not elected....

Why should be there two more years members of European Parliament from the UK and decide about laws, which won't affect their country anymore...

You misunderstand. Two years is the period after which Article 50 is invoked (and it hasn't yet been invoked, Cameron has left that up to his successor) that a member state withdrawing from the EU has to negotiate the terms of its exit.

By EU rules, if those two years go by without an agreement (or without an agreement to extend the negotiating period), then the terms of the Lisbon Treaty simply stop applying to the state that is leaving.

This isn't a number Nacre plucked from the air. It is the official period allowed to member states to negotiate their exit by the terms set out in the Lisbon Treaty.

Edited by Rob.
Link to post
Share on other sites

And no arwebb, this was racist, xenophobic Little England giving the middle finger to London, Scotland and Europe. Just like those anti-EU parties in the rest of Europe are just as racist and xenophobic as the UKIP. This was Luddites smashing the machines of progress in the name of antiquated ideals and nostalgia for far worse era of the human experiment.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/_TP_/edition/comment/pity-voters-deceived-by-the-pied-pipers-of-brexit-vz3hpfm9x

Even if there is an element of truth to that argument, and I don't doubt there is, I think to see it wholly in those terms would be just as erroneous a stereotype as you appear to be implying in those who voted to leave. Certainly the anecdotal evidence I've picked up over the last few days, both before and after the vote, suggests that the message of "taking back control" of our affairs was a very powerful one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Taking back control" in reality however will mean: If you want to do business with the EU, get an agreement like Norway or Switzerland, meaning take over EU rules but don't sit at the table when they're decided.

Already some Brexiter MP announced that freedom of movement might not be disappearing, showing that the Leave campaign was built entirely on lies. Maybe not all the Leave voters are xenophobic bigots, but each and everyone was either too stupid to see the blatant lies or lives in denial. Lancashire or Wales will not be better places for the "working class" (what an outdated term anyway in this 21st century) a few years from now.

Just showing the middlefinger in the most important decision of their lifetime is immature and irresponsible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You misunderstand. Two years is the period after which Article 50 is invoked (and it hasn't yet been invoked, Cameron has left that up to his successor) that a member state withdrawing from the EU has to negotiate the terms of its exit.

By EU rules, if those two years go by without an agreement (or without an agreement to extend the negotiating period), then the terms of the Lisbon Treaty simply stop applying to the state that is leaving.

This isn't a number Nacre plucked from the air. It is the official period allowed to member states to negotiate their exit by the terms set out in the Lisbon Treaty.

I know about the two years according Article 50 - my post should show that this Article 50 is nonsense...

When there is a divorce it doesn't work when one of the partner (especially the partner in this case, who says I "leave") says at the same time, but I want to stay in the flat two more years with the person, who was left... That won't work - the British members of the European parliament and of the European Commission has to leave "as soon as possible"...

Farage is member of the European parliament - I don't want to see a €-cent paid from my taxes to this man as salary... By the way he wasn't there often - he took the money only...

The negotiations, which are listed in article 50 are more about, what is in the flat (e.g. who is paying the pensions of the UK-members of parliament or commission in future?).

The LEAVE campaigners told their supporters that there will be a treaty between the UK and the EU during these two years, that they can still partake in the common market, but without pledges the UK had as EU-member - that won't happen that way... The people will learn very soon that the LEAVE Campaigner forget to tell them, that this way is very rocky and difficult, since every single EU-member states agree as well as Norway and Switzerland, that the UK joins in this common market...

And the joke is that Norway and Switzerland and the other members of the EEA are paying a fee (comparable to an EU-member-fee) and they don't get the money back...

Good luck Great Britain...

I know my post sounds very bitter and yes I feel pissed off by this result, since I have the impression the LEAVE voters didn't even understand the consequences they had voted for...

When these leave voters show their middle finger to me as EU-citizen - I show my middle finger to them!

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

That's alright - I get where you're coming from.

I live in a very safe seat where the sitting MP is from a party I won't vote for so my vote has not once counted towards the whole at a General Election since I started voting. I've had no say in electing any UK government and I didn't vote to leave the EU. As far as I'm concerned, what has happened and what happens now is entirely the responsibility of other people. I'm washing my hands of it all. I'll almost certainly spoil my ballot paper at the next GE for the first time.

Edited by Rob.
Link to post
Share on other sites

That's alright - I get where you're coming from.

I live in a very safe seat where the sitting MP is from a party I won't vote for so my vote has not once counted towards the whole at a General Election since I started voting. I've had no say in electing any UK government and I didn't vote to leave the EU. As far as I'm concerned, what has happened and what happens now is entirely the responsibility of other people. I'm washing my hands of it all.

I know Rob - and I feel sorry for all the people who voted "remain" - they are taken hostages by the right wing Tories and UKIP politicians...

And I am aware that we shouldn't break all bridges, but how this campaign went along - a lot of china was broken and the LEAVE voters shall see what they have done! I don't see a right wing Tory or UKIP politicians (or Labour politician) is able to heal that in the UK (as well as negotiators between the UK and the EU) ...

Another question is Scotland - what will happen with Scotland? And there is another thing - what will happen in the lower house in Westminster now - the majority of the member of parliament supported an EU-membership of the UK...

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
Link to post
Share on other sites

I know Rob - and I feel sorry for all the people who voted "remain" - they are taken hostages by the right wing Tories and UKIP politicians...

And I am aware that we shouldn't break all bridges, but how this campaign went along - a lot of china was broken and the LEAVE voters shall see what they have done! I don't see a right wing Tory or UKIP politicians (or Labour politician) is able to heal that in the UK (as well as negotiators between the UK and the EU) ...

Another question is Scotland - what will happen with Scotland? And there is another thing - what will happen in the lower house in Westminster now - the majority of the member of parliament supported an EU-membership of the UK...

On Scotland, there will be another independence referendum. It's simply a question of when the SNP government get to a position where they are confident of winning it. They're not there yet and, given the gains made by the Conservatives in the recent parliamentary elections there, I'm not sure it will be as soon as one may think.

As for the split between the people and the House of Commons, I think there is only one way to resolve that and that is through a pretty swift general election. That is more complicated now as the relatively new Fixed Term Parliaments Act requires either a two-thirds majority in the House or a vote of no confidence to be past. But nearly three-quarters of our MPs are known to have favoured Remain and I don't think the gap between their view and that of the people can be easily closed.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I know about the two years according Article 50 - my post should show that this Article 50 is nonsense...

When there is a divorce it doesn't work when one of the partner (especially the partner in this case, who says I "leave") says at the same time, but I want to stay in the flat two more years with the person, who was left... That won't work - the British members of the European parliament and of the European Commission has to leave "as soon as possible"...

Farage is member of the European parliament - I don't want to see a €-cent paid from my taxes to this man as salary... By the way he wasn't there often - he took the money only...

The negotiations, which are listed in article 50 are more about, what is in the flat (e.g. who is paying the pensions of the UK-members of parliament or commission in future?).

The LEAVE campaigners told their supporters that there will be a treaty between the UK and the EU during these two years, that they can still partake in the common market, but without pledges the UK had as EU-member - that won't happen that way... The people will learn very soon that the LEAVE Campaigner forget to tell them, that this way is very rocky and difficult, since every single EU-member states agree as well as Norway and Switzerland, that the UK joins in this common market...

And the joke is that Norway and Switzerland and the other members of the EEA are paying a fee (comparable to an EU-member-fee) and they don't get the money back...

Good luck Great Britain...

I know my post sounds very bitter and yes I feel pissed off by this result, since I have the impression the LEAVE voters didn't even understand the consequences they had voted for...

When these leave voters show their middle finger to me as EU-citizen - I show my middle finger to them!

I understand exactly how you feel Martin because I feel exactly the same. Nobody wants the UK to hang around like an uninvited guest at a party. Negotiations to complete the split must be carried out as soon as possible in the interests of everybody. The EU can then move on to decide which direction it now wishes to go in while the UK must now do the same.

Using the term 'UK' now seems quaintly ironic given what has just happened. To answer your question, Scotland will almost certainly press for another referendum on independence and indeed the Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed that's what she intends to do. The answer will almost certainly be different this time around and the UK, as we presently know it, will no longer exist. Scotland will then apply for its own membership in the EU and, given that it has a larger population than some EU states like Ireland and Denmark, I would think it stands a very good chance of being accepted.

Incidentally, there is currently an on-line petition for the referendum to be held again which I have just signed. It now has 1 and a half million signatures and Parliament must consider debating any on-line petition if it carries more than 100,000! Nigel Farage, who insisted that a narrow vote for 'Remain' would create 'an unstoppable demand for another referendum' now refuses to consider one despite the equally narrow vote for 'Leave' which is entirely typical of a what a lying, hypocrite he is!! :angry:

Despite what has just happened, please don't feel too unkindly towards this country. There are plenty of us who are just as appalled and saddened as you are. The only thing we can all hope for now is that the 'divorce' will be as quick and as amicable as possible with no lasting bad feelings on either side!!! :(

Edited by Mainad
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope now that the rifts that have opened up in this country can be healed - we are divided enough as it is, without either side now turning on the other, & that the many friendships that people here have with people in Europe (including several on this forum) aren't ripped apart. I also hope that cooler heads prevail both in the new government here, and in the EU when it comes to the negotiations. I hope we don't go in all triumphalist & arrogant, & I hope the EU don't try to make us an example by going all spiteful & potentially hurting us all, here & there.

The country voted & made a choice (albeit close) - that's democracy, that's how it works. Everyone has to move on now & try & make the best we can out of this - the last thing in the world that we need now is yet more bitterness & division in this country, we still all need to share these 'Isles of Wonder' after all.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I do love the UK and for me it was and it is still a shock, but to make it clear: everybody, who voted "LEAVE", has to explain himself/herself to me in the case we are talking about this issue - and I am not really keen to hear such nonsense reasons which I heard mostly but he UKIP and/or right wing Tory party...

It is unbelievable that e.g. Cornwall voted to LEAVE and ask one minute later to keep my money - I have to protect myself from such morons - they showed me their middle finger I show them my middle finger now...

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On Scotland, there will be another independence referendum. It's simply a question of when the SNP government get to a position where they are confident of winning it.

Funny how SNP didn't go all out to promote a "remain" vote... and now that relatively low turnout in Scotland doomed the vote, SNP is in position to call for anther referendum.

Or am I being too cynical.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny how SNP didn't go all out to promote a "remain" vote... and now that relatively low turnout in Scotland doomed the vote, SNP is in position to call for anther referendum.

Or am I being too cynical.

... they don't need to since their english cousins changed the situation completely - I would love to be a fly on the wall when this blonde moron has to tell the queen that Scotland has left the United Kingdom in the next 2 years period (in case he becomes PM and/or the Tory party is still in duty after the next general election - this referendum is not binding - the majority of lower house members supported to stay in the EU - it will become very interesting in the next years/months - of course we Europeans understand that the UK has to make up its mind, but the UK has to understand also, that we have to protect ourselves also...

The Tory party forced the UK to shoot into its own foot - and the best thing is they can't blame us anymore for their own faults...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I do love the UK and for me it was and it is still a shock, but to make it clear: everybody, who voted "LEAVE", has to explain himself/herself to me in the case we are talking about this issue - and I am not really keen to hear such nonsense reasons which I heard mostly but he UKIP and/or right wing Tory party...

It is unbelievable that e.g. Cornwall voted to LEAVE and ask one minute later to keep my money - I have to protect myself from such morons - they showed me their middle finger I show them my middle finger now...

Maybe this article can explain the best reason to "LEAVE" situation..

#EUref: The Sovereignty Argument for #Brexit

Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if I certainly don't agree with everything that comes out of Brussels: This was truly a senseless referendum, motivated only by David Cameron's need to secure his power and his office against an increasingly divided and (in parts) highly irrational Conservative Party. And so it's only cold comfort in these grim times that ironically, Cameron resulted in losing his power and his office by means of this very referendum.

David Cameron deserves a hell of a lot more respect than that. He is the one political leader who has had the courage to face up to the anti-EU movement and engaging with the issue. If his predecessors had done so a lot earlier, we would not be in this position now.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe this article can explain the best reason to "LEAVE" situation..

#EUref: The Sovereignty Argument for #Brexit

are you serious you voted "leave" due "Ode of Joy" is the anthem of the EU?

That is a joke - there is no change of the british anthem "God Save The Queen"...

... I am glad that there are more intelligent people in the UK, which didn't talk such nonsense...

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
Link to post
Share on other sites

CAF...sounds heartbroken. I Don't blame him...Way over here in NZ, the OUT victory is still a total shock.

Sadly we are now seeing some very sorry young faces in tears who voted OUT realising the colossal mistake they made..."I didn't think my vote would count", or a classic "did it for a laugh, wasn't supposed to be seriously taken"...really?

This is what happens when mass multi media hysteria takes the bottom and runs with it.

And now the cold hard reality of a sobered up next day takes effect.

Deep sympathy for Rob and Arwebb, as the understood what was at stake.

And feel for CAF...his homeland did something like this 83 years ago...and oh did they live to regret it.

Now we wait for November 7.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...