UK. EU. Yes? No? Referendum 23 June.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

And feel for CAF...his homeland did something like this 83 years ago...and oh did they live to regret it.

Now we wait for November 7.

... and we didn't even vote in a free elections for this moron - he become in power due a national party leader, who thought he could keep him under control...

[zigzag]

are you serious you voted "leave" due "Ode of Joy" is the anthem of the EU?

That is a joke - there is no change of the british anthem "God Save The Queen"...

... I am glad that there are more intelligent people in the UK, which didn't talk such nonsense...

For some it is because of that while for some other people it happened for a very different reason..

Other reason #1 : Financial

Other reason #2 : Fear-Mongering

[arwebb]

The only thing we can all hope for now is that the 'divorce' will be as quick and as amicable as possible with no lasting bad feelings on either side!!!

Maybe the divorce will never happen. David Allen Green, of the Financial Times, on Twitter and the Jack of Kent blog is very interesting on this subject.

[LatinXTC]

There's currently a petition going around and more than 2 million people have signed it. They want a new EU referendum where they want they want leave to get at least 60% of the vote in order for it to take into effect.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-petition-idUSKCN0ZB0N4

Whether or not that'll happen and the UK remains in the EU, I think the damage has already been done. I wouldn't have supported it before, but I think that Scotland and Northern Ireland should push forward to dissolve itself from the UK.

[Mainad]

David Cameron deserves a hell of a lot more respect than that. He is the one political leader who has had the courage to face up to the anti-EU movement and engaging with the issue. If his predecessors had done so a lot earlier, we would not be in this position now.

That's exactly right, arwebb. This is the legacy of our pro-EU politicians consistently failing to stand up for what they believed for fear of upsetting loud-mouthed bully-boy Eurosceptics. Craven cowardice. To paraphrase Lord Acton, that's all it takes for ignorance and hysteria to triumph when rational men and women say nothing! Even in this referendum, rarely did we hear Cameron and the other pro-EU spokespeople reminding us of the POSITIVE aspects of EU membership. All we ever got was tedious scaremongering. I think it turned a lot of undecided voters off.

To me, it all began when Blair famously declared his intention to "put Britain at the heart of Europe". He then proceeded to do the exact opposite when he ignored the advice of all his fellow European leaders in order to blindly follow the US into pursuing an illegal war against Iraq. For him, the so called 'special relationship' with the US was always paramount over our relations with Europe. After him, Gordon Brown just treated the EU with a sort of benign neglect spending as little time discussing policies with fellow EU leaders as possible. Whilst still Chancellor of the Exchequer he was the one who was instrumental in scuppering Blair's plans to join Eurozone. When I watched him making the occasional appearance to persuade people to vote 'Remain' I couldn't resist a bitter smile and realised why it was so difficult for many people to take his views seriously. After all, he had never taken them very seriously himself.

If that was the attitude and behaviour of our so-called pro-EU leaders, what could we realistically expect from their Eurosceptic successors? They spent so much time negotiating various opt outs from various EU agreements that we had practically become a part-time EU member anyway. The road to Brexit was long in the making and the foundations for it were laid by virtually every single government we have had in the last 20 years. It didn't all just come about with the appearance of Johnson and Farage!

Today, I still feel gutted and disoriented. I find it hard to believe the last 48 hours have happened. I will continue to feel like this for a long time to come. Every day now just brings more anxiety and uncertainty. I just long for RIO 2016 to come and help distract me from all this gloom and despondency!

Edited June 25, 2016 by Mainad

[zekekelso]

By the way, I'm cheering for any team with a 40-year-old guy with dad bod in goal wearing sweatpants.

[Rob2012]

By the way, I'm cheering for any team with a 40-year-old guy with dad bod in goal wearing sweatpants.

I was going to say wrong thread, but I this could just as well apply to Boris.

[Faster]

I have read a lot of the coverage and thought a lot about this and it just comes back to the same thing. This is as bad as Chamberline appeasing Hitler, as Churchill not standing up to Roosevelt to not appease Stalin. This will go down as one of the worst decisions made by a British Prime Minister. This needlessly puts the global economy in turmoil, ruptures an unified Western Europe against Russian aggression, will create years of uncertainly for absolutely nothing.

Britain is still going to have to pay Brussels for access to the common market

Britain is still going to have to abide by EU regulations to trade with the common market

Britain is still going to be a top destination for all those brown people Farage dog whistled about

It just astounds me that people are so hateful of new arrivals. What does it matter that the new tea store is run by a Pakistani, or the new restaurant in town is Vietnamese. They create jobs, create business and pay taxes. And is your typical Brit going to go pick the fields for 7 pounds an hour? Canadians don't do it for 11+ an hour? How is that going to work when you need cheap eastern labour to maintain your agriculture. We import Jamaicans and Mexicans every summer to pick our fields.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Faster

[arwebb]

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think you can isolate Cameron's decision to go for a referendum from the wider post-Maastricht period and the general failure of the British political elite to engage with the issue. The most important factor in the result was not the Tory split, but the fact that traditional Labour areas deserted their party's line in massive numbers.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I have read a lot of the coverage and thought a lot about this and it just comes back to the same thing. This is as had as Chamberline appeasing Hitler, as Churchill not standing up to Roosevelt to not appease Stalin. This will go down as one of the worst decisions made by a British Prime Minister. This needlessly puts the global economy in turmoil, ruptures an unified Western Europe against Russian aggression, will create years of uncertainly for absolutely nothing.

Britain is still going to have to pay Brussels for access to the common market

Britain is still going to have to abide by EU regulations to trade with the common market

Britain is still going to be a top destination for all those brown people Farage dog whistled about

It just astounds me that people are so hateful of new arrivals. What does it matter that the new tea store is run by a Pakistani, or the new restaurant in town is Vietnamese. They create jobs, create business and pay taxes. And is your typical Brit going to go pick the fields for 7 pounds an hour? Canadians don't do it for 11+ an hour? How is that going to work when you need cheap eastern labour to maintain your agriculture. We import Jamaicans and Mexicans every summer to pick our fields.

It is so hateful, since the national governments (in this case the UK government) didn't protect the people, but let the market do everything - e.g. the UK government supported landlords to refurbish the houses and expel their old tenants (mainly british) over the price and the people from Poland rented these flats...

And at the same time the UK government - that is not the British government only, but every national government loves to blame Brussels for everything and use it as scapegoat - without saying that every rule which "Brussels" take is agreed by the national governments beforehand.

Then the rules, which were taken in Brussels, are not seen by the people in the different countries - the UK people, who lives in Essex love their clear water - but who did it? The European Union since they decided the beach clean rules!

Blackpool used the money of the EU to renew its tower - but votes "Leave", since they think they lost their sovereignty, due the "Ode of Joy" from Beethoven is the EU anthem...

Mostly the people with lower wages voted leave - I really wonder from where they got the idea that this will improve with a government run by the rightest of the right wing Tory party? They got their money from the EU-rules, which protect social weak persons more this UK-government...

And to make things worse the Farages, Le Pens, Wilders, Höfers, five star movement and our Nazi slut are pretending that they are the voice of the simple man on the street and working together to destroy our Europe (EU) but Wilders' says to his own people: we don't want to finance the Italian slackers. The Five star movement wants to stop the power of Germany - and these "LEAVE" voters in UK play into their hand...

UNBELIEVABLE

One positive thing is that we are talking about such things now - I would have never used this wording before, since I was to nice to people, who are totally wrong in their point of view or trusted lieers like this blonde oxford debate boy (who does everything for his own good) and this scumbag Farage...

Edited June 26, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[Citius Altius Fortius]

The most interesting thing for me is - how the political system of the UK is broke down since Thursday.

And I nearly pissed my pants laughing, when I heard that this guy, who started this petition about a 2nd referendum is a LEAVE voter, who is shocked now that his petition is highjacked...

For me this just shows that such complex question is not good for a referendum, since there are so many totally different/contradictory reasons, which made the people vote yes or no...

[Alexjc]

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think you can isolate Cameron's decision to go for a referendum from the wider post-Maastricht period and the general failure of the British political elite to engage with the issue. The most important factor in the result was not the Tory split, but the fact that traditional Labour areas deserted their party's line in massive numbers.

So sadly... In other words...

"So when the Good gave up the fight and walked away, the People joined the victorious Opposition".

That's how I saw it when David and Sam Cameron turned away from the lectern and headed back into N°10.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Alexjc

[ofan]

Other opt-out movements...

Byegium

Cya-Latervia

Czechout

Departugal

Finish

Grexit

Italeave

Oustria

Slovakout

I saw all of these on Twitter. Baron didn't come up with any of them. He's not nearly that clever. Edited June 26, 2016 by ofan

[Citius Altius Fortius]

that is interesting - a totally new situation:

Independent - Brexit: Expats denied say in EU referendum due to missing postal votes ...

Edited June 26, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[baron-pierreIV]

I saw all of these on Twitter. Baron didn't come up with any of them. He's not nearly that clever.

I actually saw that on Facebook but I couldn't get a screenshot and couldn't be bothered to take the extra steps to put it on here..

But I did correct the Latervia one.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

A very interesting article in one of the most reliable newspapers of Germany - I would love to hear comments from our British members - please use a translator and I hope that not too much is lost in translation

F.A.Z. - Aussitzen des "Brexits" - Cameron größter Coup?

Edited June 26, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[woohooitsme83]

I saw all of these on Twitter. Baron didn't come up with any of them. He's not nearly that clever.

At least it's better than the other reposts I saw which brilliantly included Norway and Switzerland >.>

[arwebb]

I absolutely agree with the idea that the invoking of Article 50 should not happen straightaway. Given the turmoil that is currently engulfing British politics, with both the governing and main opposition parties in varying degrees of disarray, I believe it would be sensible to allow the dust from Thursday to settle and appropriate domestic political actions to take place. I would also argue that the demands from certain European officials for a swift move to invoke Article 50 risk them being seen as trying to bully us; something which is only going to make an already difficult situation even more tense.

So what needs to happen in Britain? First and foremost, we need a new Prime Minister. But whoever is elected to that post by Conservative Party members, I believe the unprecedented circumstances we now find ourselves in as a country requires that he or she must call an early general election, probably this autumn. Given that the views of the vast majority of our current MPs are at odds with the referendum result, there is a very real danger of a further erosion of public trust in politics if, as one or two MPs have suggested, they should seek to take action contrary to the referendum result. There is also the risk, as Gordon Brown will no doubt testify to, of being seen to lack political legitimacy without the backing of the electorate. Only after those things have happened do I think the question of invoking Article 50 should even arise.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I absolutely agree with the idea that the invoking of Article 50 should not happen straightaway. Given the turmoil that is currently engulfing British politics, with both the governing and main opposition parties in varying degrees of disarray, I believe it would be sensible to allow the dust from Thursday to settle and appropriate domestic political actions to take place. I would also argue that the demands from certain European officials for a swift move to invoke Article 50 risk them being seen as trying to bully us; something which is only going to make an already difficult situation even more tense.

So what needs to happen in Britain? First and foremost, we need a new Prime Minister. But whoever is elected to that post by Conservative Party members, I believe the unprecedented circumstances we now find ourselves in as a country requires that he or she must call an early general election, probably this autumn. Given that the views of the vast majority of our current MPs are at odds with the referendum result, there is a very real danger of a further erosion of public trust in politics if, as one or two MPs have suggested, they should seek to take action contrary to the referendum result. There is also the risk, as Gordon Brown will no doubt testify to, of being seen to lack political legitimacy without the backing of the electorate. Only after those things have happened do I think the question of invoking Article 50 should even arise.

I hope you are right, but you should think about the situation of Europe, also - it is like that you heard your partner telling a third person that he/she wants to leave him/her, but she/he doesn't say anything directly to him/her...

You (Europe) knows all the lies the partner (UK-government, UK-press) told about yourself - you are very sensitive and you suspect everything bad of this partner now...

Especially when the proposed new prime minister is one, who told so many lies - what would you propose as an UK-citizen?

Edited June 26, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[JMarkSnow2012]

A very interesting article in one of the most reliable newspapers of Germany - I would love to hear comments from our British members - please use a translator and I hope that not too much is lost in translation

F.A.Z. - Aussitzen des "Brexits" - Cameron größter Coup?

The possibility of indefinite postponement ignores the root problem, also seen in other EU countries, the USA etc. The current political system is not catering effectively for the "traditional working class" and at every possible opportunity, huge numbers of voters are telling the smooth political professionals that they don't want "politics as usual". Unfortunately, what they do want is "tribalism as was usual centuries ago"- what Trump is offering, what Putin is already delivering, and what the EU by its very nature is desperate to avoid.

It's going to get ugly.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

The possibility of indefinite postponement ignores the root problem, also seen in other EU countries, the USA etc. The current political system is not catering effectively for the "traditional working class" and at every possible opportunity, huge numbers of voters are telling the smooth political professionals that they don't want "politics as usual". Unfortunately, what they do want is "tribalism as was usual centuries ago"- what Trump is offering, what Putin is already delivering, and what the EU by its very nature is desperate to avoid.

It's going to get ugly.

It has already started - did you read what is going on in the UK? It is like Germany 1938 before the Reichskristallnacht - people are 'attacked' by white British racists.

Polish families are threatened or a waitress from an Eastern EU-state is asked: "why she is laughing - she should pack as fast as possible"?

That is just awful and these Brexit-morons opened the box of pandora and I wonder how the Tory party will handle that - it is a disaster and I wouldn't be astonished when we see more casualties than Cox soon...

[arwebb]

I hope you are right, but you should think about the situation of Europe, also - it is like that you heard your partner telling a third person that he/she wants to leave him/her, but she/he doesn't say anything directly to him/her...

You (Europe) knows all the lies the partner (UK-government, UK-press) told about yourself - you are very sensitive and you suspect everything bad of this partner now...

Especially when the proposed new prime minister is one, who told so many lies - what would you propose as an UK-citizen?

I understand where you're coming from, but, as anyone who has been through a break-up will know, emotional decisions are rarely good ones. It is not in anyone's interests to make this Brexit process any more painful than it is likely to be, if indeed it happens at all (and I'll come back to that point). As things stand, Britain is still a very important market for many EU traders in many sectors and, just as it is important that British interests are not unnecessarily damaged by what is to come, it is also important that the interests of those EU companies who still wish to do business in this country are not unnecessarily damaged too. So, for me, it is a time for cool heads on both sides in order to find the best possible solution for all.

As for who I'd like to see become Prime Minister, I find readily myself drawn towards the ABB (Anyone But Boris) camp for fairly obvious reasons. But, as the below link alludes to, there is actually something quite appealing about Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and their campaign colleagues being forced to try to deliver on the promises and slogans they have fought this campaign on.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ

It's not what they campaigned on that is appealing, particularly given how a lot of it has unraveled so quickly after the result was confirmed. It is the total lack of wriggle room that the Leave campaign has given itself in the event of their victory that is appealing. The more you think about it, the more it becomes clear that the person who wrote that comment is absolutely spot on. On Tuesday afternoon, I was among a group of journalists who followed Iain Duncan Smith as he made a Vote Leave campaign visit to King's Lynn. When he spoke to us, I asked him if a close vote (51-49 or 52-48) really would be the end of the story. While he gave a campaigning answer, another of the Vote Leave campaigners (a local councillor) gave the more honest answer of "I don't think so." I don't think either he or I knew just how much of a premonition our words would prove to be.

It has already started - did you read what is going on in the UK? It is like Germany 1938 before the Reichskristallnacht - people are 'attacked' by white British racists.

Polish families are threatened or a waitress from an Eastern EU-state is asked: "why she is laughing - she should pack as fast as possible"?

That is just awful and these Brexit-morons opened the box of pandora and I wonder how the Tory party will handle that - it is a disaster and I wouldn't be astonished when we see more casualties than Cox soon...

I have seen and read, mostly via social media, some very disturbing things in the last 24 hours. I live and work in an area of high migration, particularly from Eastern Europe. I hope and pray this doesn't turn really ugly.

[Mainad]

It has already started - did you read what is going on in the UK? It is like Germany 1938 before the Reichskristallnacht - people are 'attacked' by white British racists.

Polish families are threatened or a waitress from an Eastern EU-state is asked: "why she is laughing - she should pack as fast as possible"?

That is just awful and these Brexit-morons opened the box of pandora and I wonder how the Tory party will handle that - it is a disaster and I wouldn't be astonished when we see more casualties than Cox soon...

arwebb; "I have seen and read, mostly via social media, some very disturbing things in the last 24 hours. I live and work in an area of high migration, particularly from Eastern Europe. I hope and pray this doesn't turn really ugly."

This is the only incident as yet reported by the BBC news website. Hoping it will be the only one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-36633388

Edited June 26, 2016 by Mainad

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I understand where you're coming from, but, as anyone who has been through a break-up will know, emotional decisions are rarely good ones. It is not in anyone's interests to make this Brexit process any more painful than it is likely to be, if indeed it happens at all (and I'll come back to that point). As things stand, Britain is still a very important market for many EU traders in many sectors and, just as it is important that British interests are not unnecessarily damaged by what is to come, it is also important that the interests of those EU companies who still wish to do business in this country are not unnecessarily damaged too. So, for me, it is a time for cool heads on both sides in order to find the best possible solution for all.

You are totally right, but everything is just a joke - the UK would never be allowed to take part in an European common market without "free choice of residence" and without paying a fee therefore it is allowed to take part - wasn't that exactly the point the leave-side didn't want anymore?

[arwebb]

You may think that, but some on the Leave side, as the below video shows, would argue that point. This is just one of the areas where the Leave campaign's promises have fallen apart.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36628894