Jump to content

UK. EU. Yes? No? Referendum 23 June.


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 360
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Johnson's leadership campaign has so far cost £130bn

I yet have to recover - yesterday, I was honestly depressed about the result. While it was apparent that the Leave camp might win for weeks, I regained my old hope that reason (and therefore, the Rema

5 hours ago, Rob. said:

This is a good read though...

 

That's an interesting read indeed...

I wonder if the Tories split in several parties - Brexit is such a contrary issue that I doubt that a party can be home of Remainers and Brexiteers...

There is a split running through the UK, which split neighbours, families, colleagues, etc. etc. - and even through the parts of the UK - I wouldn't be astonished if the UK will face a bad state crisis...

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a moment too soon in the case of the latter. He should never have been appointed.

I may be in a small minority on this one, but I actually feel sorry for Theresa May and I think the link posted above is well wide of the mark because it overlooks the domestic political reality. Ever since the general election of June last year, May has been in office, but not in power. But while she faces the impossible task of coming to a position that will keep her party happy, none of those agitating against her, particularly on the Brexiteer side, have so far had the intellect to come up with an alternative strategy or the courage to try to topple her, because they know that risks a general election and the potential for them to lose.

That position is the natural progression from a referendum campaign that was based on, at the very best, a complete lack of clarity to the British electorate of what their post-Brexit position would look like. At no stage in the past two and a half years since the campaign began has there been any coherent attempt by the Brexit side to explain what it is that they want. So when the government eventually tries to find a way out of the mess, May finds herself being carped at both by the Brexiteers who won't take responsibility for the mess we're in and a European hierarchy that still doesn't appear to understand they need to work with us too.

So what should happen now? Personally, I support the idea of a referendum on a final deal if, and it's a very big if at the moment, we get to that point. However, my preference would be to go much further than that and suspend the entire Article 50 process, if indeed that is possible, to enable our nation to decide what it wants from Brexit, probably through another general election. A depressing thought perhaps, but I don't see a better alternative.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Brexit campaign group Vote Leave has been fined £61,000 and referred to the police after an Electoral Commission probe said it broke electoral law.

The watchdog said it exceeded its £7m spending limit by funnelling £675,315 through pro-Brexit youth group BeLeave.

The founder of BeLeave, Darren Grimes, has been fined £20,000 and reported to the police, along with Vote Leave official David Halsall.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/15/2018 at 9:26 AM, arwebb said:

Not a moment too soon in the case of the latter. He should never have been appointed.

I may be in a small minority on this one, but I actually feel sorry for Theresa May and I think the link posted above is well wide of the mark because it overlooks the domestic political reality. Ever since the general election of June last year, May has been in office, but not in power. But while she faces the impossible task of coming to a position that will keep her party happy, none of those agitating against her, particularly on the Brexiteer side, have so far had the intellect to come up with an alternative strategy or the courage to try to topple her, because they know that risks a general election and the potential for them to lose.

That position is the natural progression from a referendum campaign that was based on, at the very best, a complete lack of clarity to the British electorate of what their post-Brexit position would look like. At no stage in the past two and a half years since the campaign began has there been any coherent attempt by the Brexit side to explain what it is that they want. So when the government eventually tries to find a way out of the mess, May finds herself being carped at both by the Brexiteers who won't take responsibility for the mess we're in and a European hierarchy that still doesn't appear to understand they need to work with us too.

So what should happen now? Personally, I support the idea of a referendum on a final deal if, and it's a very big if at the moment, we get to that point. However, my preference would be to go much further than that and suspend the entire Article 50 process, if indeed that is possible, to enable our nation to decide what it wants from Brexit, probably through another general election. A depressing thought perhaps, but I don't see a better alternative.

 

Just makes it all the more depressing that so many people voted for Brexit without any clear understanding of what this meant or what it would entail? By their foolishness and shortsightedness they have plunged this country into a political and economic turmoil that was absolutely unnecessary and utterly avoidable.

The trouble with further referenda is what if the people vote against it again? I now greatly distrust referenda and the havoc they cause after the farce of 2016. When a final Brexit deal is agreed there should be an immediate General Election so that the electorate can decide which party they trust to implement this along with other matters.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/17/2018 at 1:57 PM, Rob. said:

 

So, does this mean that the results of the referendum can now be cancelled as it was unfairly and fraudulently influenced by crooked Brexiteers? <_<

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2018 at 3:36 PM, Rob. said:

David Davies and Boris Johnson both resigned today. #BrexitShambles

 

 

Good Riddance, especially Boris!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

Interesting but inevitable. It was obvious Leave's promises were undeliverable, and it was obvious from Johnson's face during his "victory" speech the morning after the night before that he knew that too.

It'd be funny if the shysters weren't dragging the rest of us down with them.

 

Edited by Rob.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

And so we near the point where the critical question - deal or no deal - must be answered. There may not be 22 identical sealed boxes in this game, but it feels as though the banker has all the aces and, whatever options are on the table for us as a nation, none of them come without risks. Rarely can the outlook for our nation have looked as depressing as this in peacetime.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The numbers make it as clear as it could be. Theresa May hasn't just been beaten tonight. She, and her deal, have been annihilated. The idea of having talks across parties in the light of this vote is all very well, but it is too little, too late. Mrs May should have been reaching out to other parties from the moment she lost her Parliamentary majority, at the very least. The fact that she hasn't, and even now is trying to save her deal, is part of the reason why we are now in the mess that we are.

So what happens now? Assuming that tomorrow's motion of no confidence is defeated, as I expect it to be, it may be that a majority can be found for some alternative form of Brexit, though it is difficult to see exactly what that might be at the moment. I have felt for some time that the only way to resolve this is put the issue back to the people in another referendum. After all, we were asked to begin this process so there is no logic to the argument that we should not be asked to finish it. However, I do not believe that such a poll could be carried out with just a single question. To me, voters should be asked to approve or reject whatever form of Brexit comes forward from Parliament. If it is approved, then the issue is settled. If it is not, then we have to have the choice of our current membership or leaving with no deal. I don't think there is any guarantee that Remain would win such a poll, but it appears to me to be the best way to settle things right now.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, arwebb said:

To me, voters should be asked to approve or reject whatever form of Brexit comes forward from Parliament. If it is approved, then the issue is settled. If it is not, then we have to have the choice of our current membership or leaving with no deal. I don't think there is any guarantee that Remain would win such a poll, but it appears to me to be the best way to settle things right now.

Agreed, that would definitely be the best format for a new vote. But given the Leave camps' aversion to democratic norms both during and since the referendum they should think themselves lucky if they get a second referendum with their preferred* 'No Deal' option on it.

My real preference would be to revoke article 50, point out the lies and illegality, the lack of a single coherent plan, the various contradictory promises made, and tell them to come up with something workable or shut up. That's what they deserve, but unfortunately, I think the country needs to do this democratically so we don't get any whingers saying their unicorn Brexit was denied them.

* everyone in the various Leave camps said in 2016 we'd get a deal, insisted there was no risk of leaving without one, many said it'd be "easy". But lets leave aside that bit of sophistry for now. Again, I'm being generous.

 

Edited by Rob.
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...