EURO 2012

[Rob2012]

Will last night's scenes at Roma affect the bid with it all being so close to the vote?

On one hand, I sense awarding 2012 to Italy could give them the incentive to finally sort out the ultras which plague their stadiums (and also their stadium security and policing). On the other it doesn't seem right to give the tournament to a country which has elements within its crowds that are so out of control.

Having said that, I'm guessing England were awarded '96 not long after the height of our problems (I'd be interested to find out the year we were given it actually, anyone know?).

One thing is in no doubt; technically Italy is the superior bid. But it's the new frontier appeal that they've got to beat as well as their own hooliganism problems, so this is too close to call for me.

[cesco_82]

^^

Please note that everything that happened within the stadium was only about police and english supporters. I don't even think about the fact that any Police in the world would attack a group of people without reason (...i can consider that only if we are considering a fascist country...). So, just with that, I can arrive at the conclusion that the english provoked and were doing something bad.

Of course if someone says that we could have stewards not police in the stadiums, I can only agree...but this is our law (stadia are cities' properties not clubs') and by now we can do nothing about that.

Anyhow yesterday our president Napolitano signed the antiviolence law I talked about few posts ago, and in a little time it will be published on the Official Gazette to be an active law.

So it seems that english supporters were enjoying the fact that our laws still are "soft"...eheheh (just joking...)

Anyway 3 english guys were arrested and at least one had been denounced.

And may I add, just to be a little bit polemical, that english police isn't known as the one with gloves???

Let me say again our's not a hooliganism problem, as England's was...in fact England had a national team supporters hooliganism...we don't have any problem on national team side.

[Rob2012]

That's nice, but we're not talking about your national side. There is a problem with hooliganism in club football in Italy. You can't deny that and if you do there's no point in continuing this argument.

From what I've been reading and seeing today it seems there were four main problems:

1. Some Man Utd fans charged towards the plastic fence when Roma scored.

2. Roma fans did the same and threw objects over the fence at the Man Utd fans.

3. There were no stewards to speak of - one fan who emailed Sky Sports News said there were stewards but they were too busy supporting Roma to be bothered about crowd control.

4. The riot police were only placed in the away end (why?) and were very heavy handed, unecessarily so. The fact that there were no riot police on the other side of the fence meant that Roma fans continued throwing missiles into the away section.

Point four is the crucial point. All teams from all countries have hardcore elements who will cause trouble if given the opportunity. The point is, they shouldn't be given the opportunity, least of all within the stadium. The overreaction by the riot police (riot police for heaven's sake! That's not the way to manage crowds!) was terrible. Ok, you could argue that some of the Man Utd hooligans deserved to be dealt with harshly and I won't necessarily argue with you there. BUT, the situation became chaotic (it shouldn't have been allowed to) and INNOCENT fans were beaten up by the riot police. I've heard stories of old people and Dads with their kids getting caught up in the violence on the news today, just becasue they couldn't get out of the way. I'm not trying to make excuses for English hooligans or deny they exist, what I'm saying is your police and security didn't manage the situation correctly last night and people got hurt who didn't deserve to.

--------

To respond specifically to some of your other points:

Please note that everything that happened within the stadium was only about police and english supporters

Not true. The reason you say it was only a problem between the police and the English fans is precicley because there were no police controlling the home fans' behaivour. The home fans were just as much to blame as the Man Utd fans but the police response was disproportionate and aimed only at one set of troublemakers. Questions need to be asked as to why this was.

Interestingly, I hear a ban on fans at Roma's stadium this weekend that was lifted earlier in the week has been reinstated by the city authority. That action says more to me than any words because it is an admission that some Roma fans are hooligans and, more crucially, that the police and the authorities do not yet know the best way of controlling the stadium crowds.

Of course if someone says that we could have stewards not police in the stadiums, I can only agree...but this is our law (stadia are cities' properties not clubs') and by now we can do nothing about that.

I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Whoever is in charge of security, whether it be stewards employed by the club or the police, has to get the situation under control. It's no good saying "we can do nothing about that". The hooligan problem in England hasn't gone away entirely but it is properly mananged within our stadiums. Italy should be doing something similar.

[Olympian2004]

Having said that, I'm guessing England were awarded '96 not long after the height of our problems (I'd be interested to find out the year we were given it actually, anyone know?).

According to this Wikipedia article, England was elected host of the EURO 1996 on 5 May 1992.

They had only four years to prepare such an enlarged tournament (remember, 1996 was the first time that 16 instead of 8 teams could participate in the EURO) and delivered such high quality? Kudos!

[baron-pierreIV]

One Solution: BAN ALL European Football and have them and the World Cup ALWAYS be played in the U.S. Look, the euro's so much stronger than the US$; so it'll buy a lot here!!

[marcos]

I was looking for the bids sites and I like Hungary-Croatia bid very much,I think that UEFA should give a chance to Hungary since they tried in 2004 and 2008 and they didn´t win.In other han Croatia is probably the most rich country of the balcanies and they are a country with good football...

[Faster]

First Round Voting

Italy

Gilberto Madail (Portugal)

Angel Maria Villar Llona (Spain)

Geoffrey Thompson (England)

Marios Lefkaritis (Cyrpus)

Joseph Mifsud (Malta)

Sens Erzik (Turkey)

Croatia/Hungary

Gerhand Mayer-Vorfielder (Germany)

Per Ragn Omdal (Norway)

Mathieu Sprengers (Netherlands)

Ukraine/Poland

Mircae Sandu (Romania)

Viacheslav Koloskov (Russia)

Italy wins in first round 6-3-2

I think I need to rethink this.

First Round

Italy

Gilberto Madail (Portugal)

Angel Maria Villar Llona (Spain)

Marios Lefkaritis (Cyrpus)

Joseph Mifsud (Malta)

Croatia/Hungary

Gerhand Mayer-Vorfielder (Germany)

Per Ragn Omdal (Norway)

Mathieu Sprengers (Netherlands)

Geoffrey Thompson (England)

Sens Erzik (Turkey)

Ukraine/Poland

Mircae Sandu (Romania)

Viacheslav Koloskov (Russia)

Second Round

Italy

Gilberto Madail (Portugal)

Angel Maria Villar Llona (Spain)

Marios Lefkaritis (Cyrpus)

Joseph Mifsud (Malta)

Viacheslav Koloskov (Russia)

Ukrainian Member

Croatia/Hungary

Gerhand Mayer-Vorfielder (Germany)

Per Ragn Omdal (Norway)

Mathieu Sprengers (Netherlands)

Geoffrey Thompson (England)

Sens Erzik (Turkey)

Mircae Sandu (Romania)

Platini votes for Italy, Italy wins

[Filipe_Golias]

Taken from uefa.com:

Voting procedure

As far as the voting procedure for the 2012 hosts is concerned, the bidders will be required to receive an absolute majority - half the valid votes plus one - in the first ballot to be chosen. Should no candidature get an absolute majority, a second ballot would take place involving the two bidders who received most votes in the first ballot. In the event of a draw in the second ballot, the UEFA President would have a casting vote. UEFA Executive Committee members from Italy and Ukraine will not be entitled to vote in any of the ballots.

So, unlike with Olympics Host City elections, on the case of a second round, there cannot be a draw since the initial 11 votes will persist.

[vaandor]

There cannot be a draw since the initial 11 votes will persist.

That's strange.

I also thought, that the committee member of the third bid may vote, when he is not concerned any more.

I just wanted to write to Faster, that I don't think the ukrainian member would vote to Italy. (But it may stand to the russian member as well) If he prefer the UKR-POL bid, than in second round he still would prefer a EURO in the east, a EURO not for Italy. That is not necessary, of course, but... well, who knows.

Really much can be decided in first round. But not the final decision. For that I also (still) think, a second round must be held.

Well, in my oppinion, if UKR-POL falls out, their voters would possibly support CROATIA-HUNGARY.

And I still think, it would be a good decision.

Anyway, why have you rethought it? After the yesterday events, (Those were sad again...) or just for all other factors? (those also not show a _definite_ [first-round] Italy, IMO)

[Faster]

That's strange.

I also thought, that the committee member of the third bid may vote, when he is not concerned any more.

I just wanted to write to Faster, that I don't think the ukrainian member would vote to Italy. (But it may stand to the russian member as well) If he prefer the UKR-POL bid, than in second round he still would prefer a EURO in the east, a EURO not for Italy. That is not necessary, of course, but... well, who knows.

Really much can be decided in first round. But not the final decision. For that I also (still) think, a second round must be held.

Well, in my oppinion, if UKR-POL falls out, their voters would possibly support CROATIA-HUNGARY.

And I still think, it would be a good decision.

Anyway, why have you rethought it? After the yesterday events, (Those were sad again...) or just for all other factors? (those also not show a _definite_ [first-round] Italy, IMO)

There has always been a strange relationship between Croatia (and Yugoslavia in general) and Russia, especially Croatia because of Croatia's Nazi support. I know its kinda sad, but a lot of eastern European countries still hold grudges against each other. Thats why I could never see a Russian supporting a Croatian bid. England is a strange case, the government was particularly hard on Croatia over the Ante Gotovina issue and looked rather red when Croatia got to give them a big fat 'I told you so'. Politics and nationalism has a larger impact on these things than you would except.

Also I think that each federation should be able to vote instead of the executive committee.

[vaandor]

Politics and nationalism has a larger impact on these things than you would except.

Oh, I wouldn't doubt that, don't you think!

I thoght about politics as well, just I didn't count with Croatia, but with Hungary. And Russia had and has many common (politics and business) things with Hungary. Most recently some energy-politics issues. But it's fact: Russia can't choose Hungary without Croatia. We can only win together, as it's already told...

The question is that which influence of the politics are prior, and how much can it influence the oppinions about the bids - and the votes.

[cesco_82]

Uefa to investigate Spurs trouble

Uefa will launch an investigation after crowd trouble broke out during Thursday's Uefa Cup tie between Sevilla and Tottenham in Spain.

Riot police separated fans outside the ground before kick-off and during the match, trouble erupted in the enclosure housing 4,000 travelling Spurs fans.

Unconfirmed reports said seven Tottenham fans and one policeman had been taken to hospital.

A Uefa spokesman said: "Any incidents of crowd trouble will be investigated."

Tottenham have already pledged their full support to the authorities.

"Our initial reports suggest there was no fan-to-fan fighting at any stage of the proceedings," said a club statement.

"As such we are seeking explanations as to why the police reacted in the way they did with our fans.

"Tottenham supporters have enjoyed an exemplary reputation across Europe this season which is why tonight's events are unprecedented.

"We will be co-operating fully with Uefa, the British Embassy and the Spanish authorities to understand why this has happened."

The scenes followed violent clashes between fans and police in Manchester United's Champions League tie in Rome on Wednesday.

Less than half an hour into Thursday's game, trouble erupted in the enclosure housing the 4,000 Spurs supporters, where riot police were deployed.

Seats and punches were thrown as the the clashes continued during the half-time interval.

However, things settled down following the departure of the riot police from the Spurs enclosure at the start of the second half.

Tottenham boss Martin Jol said he had remained focused on events on the pitch - which saw Spurs lose the first leg 2-1.

"I don't know what started it but I had to focus on the game, and if you don't do that then you could lose your concentration," said the Dutchman.

"The only thing that I saw was that there was no separation between the two stands."

He added: "Of course it is a concern, but at first you have to look into it and then you can make your mind up.

"Yesterday we saw everything that happened, and I don't want to make a judgement on that.

"It's not always one-way traffic, you know what I mean?"

Story from BBC SPORT

[arwebb]

I feel that I have to respond to Cesco's comments regarding Wednesday night's events in particular. There are a number of points that I would like to make.

First of all, the problems were begun by the home supporters. We have heard countless eyewitness reports which have talked of missiles being thrown from the Roma section throughout Wednesday's match. Then, when the first goal was scored, Roma fans charged towards the segregation point in what can only be seen as a deliberate attempt to goad opposing supporters, which in a minority of cases was successful.

Second, it is clear from the television pictures that the police were only interested in the English supporters. There were none in the home section and they appeared not to care less about the home supporters' behaviour. The conduct of the Italian police was an absolute disgrace. You cannot credibly defend a police force which deems it necessary to beat a man with a baton when he is already lying cowering on the ground. It was shameful and it was not the first time the police in Italy have behaved in such a despicable manner.

I am not trying to argue that all Manchester United supporters were blameless in what went on. But the majority of them were and what they endured was totally unacceptable.

Third, the mayor of Rome's comments about United warning their fans prior to the game were a joke. Surely he is able to recognise the fact that Manchester United had a duty of care to those people and were acting accordingly. Moreover, after the match, I heard the BBC commentator Alan Green saying he and the rest of his team were going to get a lift with the Manchester United's press people because they felt it was too unsafe to go and collect their hire car which was 20 minutes walk away from the Olympic Stadium. What does that tell you?

Fourthly, the evidence we have all seen in recent months is clear - there is a serious problem with hooliganism surrounding football in Italy. This is not a problem that Italy experiences alone, in the same way that it wasn't an England-only problem 20 years ago. This is a problem that we all have to face and best practices need to be sought and learned from. The scenes we have witnessed over the last two nights in Rome and Seville respectively just would not happen in England these days. We have a mix of police and trained stewards who, by and large, are able to manage situations to an extent that trouble in grounds is very rare in the first place, and virtually non-existant on the scales we've seen this week. This is not to say that there are not problems sometimes. I myself was at a match a couple of months ago where I, and most of the away crowd present, were extremely disappointed at the behaviour of the police and stewards, particularly in their unbalanced treatment of people. But surely other countries can look at the steps that have been taken here and how far we have come for guidance on how to deal with the issues that they face now.

[Rob2012]

I'd love to know what happened at the Spurs game, which I watched on ITV, as it wasn't entirely clear from their coverage whether the police were heavy handed or not in this case. However, there are suggestions they did overreact and if this story is true, have a lot of explaning to do.

Tottenham have accused Spanish police of hitting a disabled fan during Thursday's Uefa Cup tie in Seville.

Riot police charged away fans midway through the first half of the match as trouble broke out inside the ground.

Spurs club secretary John Alexander said: "We know one disabled fan was hit with a baton with such force that it knocked him out of his wheelchair."

Also, as if to prove that having riot police isn't a good way of controlling crowds and can often make a situation worse:

The fighting continued into the half-time interval but died down when Spurs officials persuaded the Spanish authorities to take the police out of the away section in the second half.

This confirms stories I've heard that the Spurs stewards who were drafted in for the match were less than happy at the Spanish police wading into a situation that they believed they had under control.

Anyway, we'll have to await UEFA's verdict, which I'm not looking forward to, as despite my arguments there were undoubtedly some total pricks who let our club down last night.

Going back to Wednesday, all the points Arwebb made about the Man Utd game and continental handling of security are totally true and pretty much what I said in post #228

---------------------------------------------------

Before this turns into an England vs the rest of Europe debate (which I don't really want it to be), I want to say something else. I know I have much more in common with the averege Seville or Roma fan who just wants to watch a football match than any of the Spurs fans who thought it'd be big to throw chairs last night, despite me also supporting Spurs. I was embarrassed by some of them last night as I have been when a small number of England fans have done similar things in the past. I just wish you'd feel the same way about your policing because, certainly in the Man Utd game, it was just as big a factor in what when on.

What I'm trying to say is, only when both these problems (hooligansim and poor policing) are recognised by both of the parties involved is there ever going to be a solution. I'll naturally point out the bad policing, as you'll naturally point out our fans behaviour. The sad fact is both were reasons for what went on last night, the night before and countless other times over the last few seasons. You seem like a reasonable guy Cesco, so I'm sure you'd agree that finger pointing fuelled only by our sense of national pride won't help and that to counter this problem our nations probably need to work together.

[Rob2012]

Just been reading some Tottenham forums and some more statements have come out recently regarding the Seville violence:

Club Secretary John Alexander is today calling for answers from the Spanish authorities as to what prompted the disturbing scenes during the match last night:

"Our supporters have been on four trips into Europe before this and have behaved impeccably so something was clearly different in the way they were treated last night to suffer this sort of response," said John this afternoon.

"We really need to get to the bottom of just what the police were trying to do when they entered those segregation lines. We have been distressed to hear about incidents involving our supporters at a time when they were showing no aggression whatsoever and also in respect of our disabled supporters being set upon by the Spanish riot police. We need to understand how we are in a position whereby we have two clearly identifiable Spurs Stewards assaulted by the Spanish police, along with our disability co-ordinator being injured too.

Martin Jol, our manager said:

"Even after the game was horrendous, there was one fan taking a picture of the team bus and a policeman battered him in the face. The players were really upset."

Daniel Wynne, of Tottenham Hotspur Supporters' Trust, told Sky Sports News:

"The pictures are of seats being thrown but that was 15 minutes after an unprovoked attack by the police. When they retreated the trouble stopped."

Haringey police chief Simon O'Brien, at the match as an observer, also questioned the police's approach:

"The Spurs fans' behaviour was excellent throughout the day and the Spurs stewards did what I can only describe as a remarkable and commendable job at the match. I shall be assisting fully with the investigation.

"What I would say now is that it was quite clear that there was a different level of police intervention to that which we employ in the UK and the introduction of the police during the match in one particular section of the crowd undoubtedly contributed to the disturbances that we saw."

Very worrying quotes.

[arwebb]

I can only echo your comments, Rob. A few Spurs fans did throw seats and were engaged in disorder. But, this was only AFTER the police had waded in for whatever reason, allegedly after someone tripped over!! It's surely no coincidence that there was no trouble after the police had been persuaded to move.

[Monika]

If you want to chose Hungary it means that you want to come to country which hates foreigners and to watch games at old stadiums, because they will NEVER build new ones. I know what Im talking about because I live there. I still love Croatia though and if wanted to host E2012 with some other country, I'd <3 it.

Italy... Everyone knows Italy. Venice, Rome... Aren't you bored of it? I am. That's why I think we should try something new. Like Poland and Ukraine. People say that they have nothing to offer but it's because of their ignorance/lack of knowledge. Poland has everything you need. Nice people, mountains, sea, lakes. Warsaw, Cracow, Wroclaw. Give Poland and Ukraine a chance and you won't regret it.

And please stop saying that Poland is in east part of Europe, it's not

[arwebb]

Haven't they rebuilt the main stadium in Budapest?

[Monika]

http://www.stadiumguide.com/puskas.htm

Well if that is enough for you, then yes, they did. But still, laziness is part of their nature. They won't make it. And Hungary IS NOT a nice, friendly place. You don't want to spend your time and money there.

[Faster]

http://www.stadiumguide.com/puskas.htm

Well if that is enough for you, then yes, they did. But still, laziness is part of their nature. They won't make it. And Hungary IS NOT a nice, friendly place. You don't want to spend your time and money there.

I know a lot of Hungarians (there are many of them near where I live, this area has a lot of Hungarian/German/Polish/Croatian people) and they are friendly and very proud people.

[Monika]

Where I live Hungarians don't use any other language but their own which is impossible to understand. They're not helpful, if you ask them to do something for you you have to ask them 10 times and it doesn't mean that it wil be done.

Of course, some of them are nice but Hungarians as the nation I find very unsociable.

[FEDA]

Well, Monika, if you are really a Hungarian then it’s absolutely shameful how wrong your opinion about Hungary is. If I am a member of a nation I don’t want to make fool of my own country.

Mountains, lakes etc. are not important factors for the UEFA decision makers at all. But infrastructure, accommodation and a couple of other things which can be closely connected to a European football event are at the centre of attention during the decision. Our Polish good friends can’t be proud of their good facilities, and it’s also true in the case of the Ukraine, where almost permanently political struggles occur, which shake the whole country.

All in all, Hungary deserves to get it, because of its football history, the great efforts what she showed during the candidate process and the will to have a powerful team in the future, but if you were a patriotic Hungarian you would know all of this.

[Monika]

I didn't say I was Hungarian. I said I lived in Hungary, that's a huge difference because I can be objective in my judgements.

One Ferenc Puskas doesn't make the whole "football history". I'm sorry to say that but Hungary is really bad at football, it's not their favourite sport, unlike waterpolo or whatever it is called. In Poland and Ukraine football is a national game, no. 1 sport. This factor is extremely important if we want to make sure that people in a country will be actually interested in such a big event.

[Marit]

One Ferenc Puskas doesn't make the whole "football history". I'm sorry to say that but Hungary is really bad at football, it's not their favourite sport, unlike waterpolo or whatever it is called.

It is true that Hungary won olympic gold medal in football ONLY 3 times, in waterpolo many more (6-7 or more....

In waterpolo

Croatia is current world champion (vs. Hungary in the final in 2007),

Hungary is Olympic champion (vs. Serbia-Montenegro in the final in 2004, vs. Russia in the final of 2000...and won most titles in waterpolo history).

In football, Hungary won 3 olympic gold medals (most of any football nation!), won 2 silver world cup medals. Croatia was European champion (as part of Yugoslavia) and won bronse in world cup.

I was in Hungary a few years ago, when their small team (don't even remeber it's name) beat Manchester United 1-0 in Champions League qualifications. Suddenly EVERYONE got interested in football again.....

It is true Hungarian football is bad currently......after 1990, fall of communism, nearly all talented players are sold abroad.....since nobody good plays in their small national championship....the number of viewers naturally sunk.....

Football is EXTREMELY POPULAR there too......but poor hungarians have to watch Premiership, Bundesliga etc. big Western European leagues....

If not for trying hard, why else did they have Lothar Mattheus for 2006 qualificaltions as national coach?

As fort national sports: Austria's national sport is alpine ski! For Switzerland is also ski!

So what? EURO 2008 will take place in AUT-SWI! ski is their no.1. national sport!

Maybe EURO2012 will take place in CRO-HUN! waterpolo is their no.1. national sport!

If it is so popular, what did Poland or Ukraine achieve in football? Much less than Croatia nad Hungary did so far....which is a shame if you compare total populations of 15million vs. 85million.....

Poland and Ukraine are not really sport nations....not in football...nor in waterpolo.....

[Marit]

And please stop saying that Poland is in east part of Europe, it's not

Looking from Moscow....Poland is in Western Europe!

Looking from Helsinki....Poland is in Southern Europe.....and has nearly tropical climate