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Jiejie what to do you make of the argument that the Russians base score potential was 4 to 6 points higher than Kim or Kostner's? The 'extra triple' explaination as it were?

Not all that much. Mao Asada's free skate had 8 triples including a triple axel (the only woman in the world to do one in competition)--that's one more than Sotnikova. Asada BV > Sotnikova by 5 points. Yet her very wonderful and mature FS was nitpicked to death. Look at it another way in order of highest to lowest BV:

Asada BV 66.34, actual TES with the GOE added 73.03 = 10.1% boost

Sotnikova BV 61.43, actual TES with GOE added 75.54 = 23.0% boost

Kostner BV 58.45, actual TES with GOE added 69.69 = 17.8% boost

Kim BV 57.49, actual TES with GOE added 68.84 = 21.2% boost

Sotnikova's boost over the BV of her program was an order of magnitude higher than she's ever received before, whereas that of the other 3 are pretty much in line with other competitions where they skated decently. Sotnikova's other key free skates of the season:

Cup of China BV 47.32, with adds 50.36 = 6.4% boost. Total score for this competition 174.70.

Trophee Eric Bompard BV 55.75, with adds 65.15 = 16.9% boost. Total score 189.81 and she skated very well.

Grand Prix Final BV 48.85, with deducts 46.45 = negative. Total score 173.30 and very poorly skated, I'd chuck this out as an aberration.

European Champs BV 54.86, with adds 62.03 = 13.1% boost. She skated well.

In ALL of these competitions her lutzes deserved and received edge calls ("flutzing). I've seen her live and she has an obvious take-off issue with this jump. Yet magically, no deduction at Olympics for the same thing while others were deducted?

Next, the BV's themselves have some questions since the non-Russians generally received lower levels for things like step sequences whereas Sotnikova was max'ed out. There were deviations in how these levels were assigned by this Technical Panel compared to other Tech Panels for the same programs delivered the same way. Levels affect BV. I could go on, etc. etc. but if you drill down into the numbers, it's obvious something is way out of whack.

The furor is over the PCS, not the TES (though, even then, apparently the technical caller, who is married to the head of the Russian skating union, was fairly generous to the Russian skaters while being stingy with everyone else).

Not exactly correct. While the PCS scoring was egregiously wrong for both Russians, the furor is also over the TES scores. Lots of points were gained by the Russians on the tech side as well. Per my comments above. And the Technical Controller was Alexandr Lakernik, chairman of the ISU Tech Committee who happens to be Russian. The judge you speak of is Alla Shekovtseva, married to Piseev, head of Russian Skating Federation. Can anybody say: "conflict of interest?" There has been much b*tching about this for years by other federations, but Cinquanta of the ISU has steadfastly supported them. He's been in the RSF's pocket for years, though.

I feel like something really needs to be adjusted in the men's scoring system in regards to quad jumps. In the current system, a fall on a quad jump receives more points than a perfectly completed triple jump of the same type. This seems crazy to me! In the men's free program, the top guys were falling all over the place on quad after quad. Quads either need to be outlawed, restricted (only a certain number of attempts allowed in a program), or downgraded in value. The level of artistry is already going down, and now we have top skaters attempting jumps that they know they cannot land just to rack up the inflated points.

You're not alone in this. There is a problem with the scoring system in that things like falls are not penalized enough. A fall on a jump can end up being worth more than another jump completed with a underrotation. This encourages people to take risks on jumps they can't actually complete. This happens not just with quads but with all multiples of rotations. IMO, at Senior International ISU Competitions, falls should be penalized more like -4 or -5 rather than the paltry -1 penalty currently assessed. When you are dealing with total scoring of top elites in the 180-250+ range, -1 is a ridiculously low penalty percentage. Rebalancing the scoring for risk vs reward would result in a more logical system.

Sotnikova's costume was awful, but it was better than what she wore during the Grand Prix series. Johnny and Tara called her costume "lingerie-esque" during the Grand Prix Final.

This is true. In the early part of the season, she looked like she was skating half-naked. It was widely discussed on figure skating forums. Her Team obviously saw the criticisms (likely were given negative feedback from the ISU) and made modifications. Still an ugly costume though, but that's a minor quibble in the current Big Picture of what's happened..

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...if soooooooo many are questioning marks why has no formal complaint been brought??

Well, there is this HUGE petition making the rounds... It should go to both the IOC and the ISU!!


But then again, if protests win, it might by trial and decision by the mob -- not by the 'experts.' Can't win for living.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Adelina Sotnikova

(SP : 30.43 / FS : 61.43 = 91.86)

Yuna Kim

(SP : 31.43 / FS : 57.49 = 88.92)

Just 2.94 Base Value Points.

GOE & PCS are subjective standards of judges play.

Especially Adelina got POSITIVE DEGREE in first Jump! (HER LUTZ IS FLUTZ : WRONG EDGE must be -1~-2 negative degree. But her score is +1.00)

And HER PCS....... below


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Petition on change.org is closing in on 2 million signatures (not all of them from South Koreans!). http://www.change.org/petitions/international-skating-union-isu-open-investigation-into-judging-decisions-of-women-s-figure-skating-and-demand-rejudgement-at-the-sochi-olympics

IMO, there is nothing that will happen that will cause the ISU or IOC to review and/or change this result. However, it has been such a blatant example of unseemly scoring that it's possible there will be some changes to the system made over the next couple of years, including getting rid of anonymous judging. It would take a ballsy ISU President to get rid of the conflicts of interest on tech and judging panels, and I don't expect that to happen under "Speedy" Cinquanta nor any other leader that comes from a speed skating background rather than a figure skating one.

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your dementia ramblings do not count as poetry, barry.

besides, older and stupider is nothing to be proud of, or has your short term memory loss already insulated you to the thwacking your insights on figure skating has already received in this thread?

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With respect to above post, unfortunately it's not that straightforward. The judge's marks are scrambled at random between competitors. All numbers in a given column under a given skater are from the same judge. However, the judge in column #1 on Kim's protocol results might be judge #7, 3, 5, or any other position on Sotnikova's protocols. This is to keep you from doing a direct comparison like you are trying to do.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Figure skater Kim Yu-na says 'absurd' Olympic result fully behind her

SEOUL, March 4 (Yonhap) -- After settling for silver in a controversial decision at the recent Winter Olympics, figure skater Kim Yu-na reiterated on Tuesday she has fully put that "absurd" result behind her.

Kim, the 2010 Olympic champ in ladies' singles figure skating who took the silver at the Sochi Winter Games last month, met hundreds of her enthusiastic fans at a Seoul shopping mall. She shared with them her thoughts about what many experts and fans felt was a rigged judging decision that denied her a second straight Olympic title and handed the gold instead to the upstart Russian teenager, Adelina Sotnikova.

Though Sotnikova made a landing mistake during her free skate and Kim put together a clean routine, the South Korean finished more than five points behind the Russian. In the aftermath, Kim graciously said she fully accepted the result and the decision was out of her control.

Kim, who retired from the sport after Sochi, said once again the judging saga is well in her past.

"It was all very absurd but I was just happy that it was all finished," she told the fans. "I have never gone over the result and thought what might have been."


Before Sochi, Kim had said she wasn't dying to win another gold medal after capturing one in Vancouver in 2010, and she didn't have any regrets even after the close call in Sochi.

"I felt I could still feel a bit disappointed if I don't win the gold, since I am human after all," she said. "After it was all said and done, I concluded that I really wasn't that desperate for the gold."

After the end of the competition in Sochi, Kim was caught on camera in tears, leading to speculation that they showed her disappointment and frustration over the questionable judging.

Kim said the burst of tears had nothing to do with the result.

"I got emotional the night before also, after the end of my short program, thinking the time has finally come for me to leave," she said. "It was just that memories of some difficult times came flooding back."

At 23, Kim said she has decided not to enter any more competitions, and she isn't about to look back any time soon.

"For the longest time, I've never even wanted to look at my skates," she said. "I know I've done enough, and there is absolutely no regret."

Despite the controversial silver in Sochi, Kim leaves figure skating with her legacy fully secure.

Aside from her two Olympic medals, Kim also has two world championships to her credit. She still owns the record scores under the revamped judging system in the short program (78.50), free skate (150.06) and combined score (228.56), all set in her gold medal-winning performance in Vancouver. Kim is the first female skater to surpass 150 points in free skate and 200 points in total.

In her senior career that began in 2006, Kim never once missed the podium.

She picked her two Olympics along with the 2013 world championships, which she won by more than 20 points, as her three greatest events of her career.


Kim said she hasn't thought much about what she wants to do in her post-skating career.

"It's hard to pick one thing that I'd like to do," she said. "I am just happy to be away from the pressure and stress of competitions. I really don't know anything beside figure skating, and I think I will be doing something related to it."

Kim had earlier said she would like to become a member of the Athletes' Commission at the International Olympic Committee (IOC) after her skating career is over. On Tuesday, she sounded a little more cautious, saying, "There's no guarantee that I will be elected. I haven't put in any specific thought about it yet."



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All that said, there's going to be immense pressure for her to return after a couple of years and train hard to regain that gold in Pyongchang if the South Koreans strongly they have no faith in their emerging skaters by then. But I think Kim will be resistant; she knows it will be hard with younger, more athletic and dynamic skaters ushering in from this point forward. Kim may not likely compete as effectively as she famously did. Besides, she'd be 27. Old by today's standards.

Oh, and these were the bursts of tears following the competition live on SBS that was referred to with attempts at laughs through the tears


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I honestly wanted Kim to win so she can stake her claim at history. But she already is a figure skating legend, all the more incredible given her humble start being spotted at a subpar rink. Agreed on her at the Pyongchang Opening Ceremony; I automatically see her lighting the torch unless the organizers aim to pull a fast one and have Kim Dong-Sam, Lee Sang-Hwa, or even Viktor Ahn (Ahn Hyun-Soo).

I loved seeing that large banner of her at the Seoul mall promoting her visit proclaimed her as "The Queen, Now and Forever"

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  • 2 weeks later...
South Korea to file complaint to skating body over Sochi judges

Fri Mar 21, 2014

(Reuters) - The South Korean Olympic Committee (KOC) will file an official complaint to the International Skating Union about the figure skating judging panel used at the Sochi Games which deemed Kim Yuna's routine only worthy of a silver medal.

Kim had arrived in Russia for the February Games as the hot favourite to successfully defend the title, but despite completing a faultless final routine she was left with only a silver as home favourite Adelina Sotnikova took a shock gold.

The Russian teenager was the only one of the leading trio whose free programme contained an obvious mistake - a two-footed landing from a double loop - but as far as the nine-member judging panel were concerned, she was superior to the more graceful Kim.

Despite the error, Sotnikova improved on her own personal best by more than 18 points and her mark of 149.95 was just 0.11 of a point shy of Kim's world record free skate score of 150.06 - which the South Korean earned for a blinding performance at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics.

Defenders of Sotnikova pointed out that the Russian teenager performed one more triple than Kim.

The KOC and the Korea Skating Union (KSU) said in statement that they will demand a thorough investigation into the composition of the judging panel.

"We had to be very careful since an appeal or a complaint could strain relationships with international judges and bring disadvantages to our players in international games," a KOC official said.

"However, we decided to file complaints to the disciplinary committee, considering what is the best for our nation (people) although some issues are expected."

The result drew derision from outside of Russia, who celebrated their first victory in the women's event, with more than 1.5 million people signing an online petition demanding an inquiry into Kim's defeat.

One judge was identified as having served a one-year suspension for trying to fix an event at the 1998 Olympics, while another, Alla Shekhovtseva - the wife of the general director of the Russian figure skating federation - was caught on camera hugging Sotnikova moments after the win.


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