Germany 2036

[StefanMUC]

1 hour ago, yoshi said:

I guess it'd be called NRW 2036, just like the Commonwealth Games in Victoria. 

Nah, NRW is much larger still, and all the proposed venues (minus sailing ofc and Aachen) really are located at or nearby either Rhine or Ruhr river (or even both in Duisburg). It is actually still relatively compact considering that even all football matches would be included in this 60-70 km radius that is equivalent to LA 2028. And I can still imagine the Netherlands coming with a bit of a similar idea for the two dams/Hague/Utrecht sooner than later.

[FYI]

4 hours ago, fusilli said:

Yes but they are still core city targeted. Anything like diluted geographic sprawl.

Again, the more important factor in this case is the country that would perhaps mount this bid. It's a major factor that the IOC will no doubt consider (IOC president Thomas Bach is already acknowledging this, & surely he would know about such things), & not simply ignore it (especially when comparing it to some of the other not-so-suitable options), just because of some sprawl, city-core or not. Let's wait for some of the preliminary plans anyway, if they materialize in the end, before we make final judgement on it.

4 hours ago, fusilli said:

Not the top but still being revelant to the message.

What message? Have you not noticed some of the other long-winded names that some of the bids for 2030 are mentioned about, for example? British Columbia 2030, Barcelona-Pyrenees or Catalonia-Aragon 2030 (before that attempt went kaputt), etc? So what's so bad about Rhine-Ruhr? It's actually less syllables than any of the aforementioned & rolls off-the-tongue rather nicely really. 

Seriously, an Olympic bid could be called Cuckoo-Caca 2036, but as long as it has most of the bells-&-whistles that the IOC so desires, they'll take it. It's making a mountain out of a molehill that really is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[yoshi]

Rhine Ruhr still works, especially if they want to give the impression that it's all one megacity to drag tourism from Cologne and Dusseldorf into Duisburg, Essen, Dortmund etc. 

Is there any word from the Dutch? I'd have thought a bid from the main cities in Holland (specifically) plus Utrecht would have a strong chance, and would be an ideal place to try out a national scale Olympics... the rail system in that area basically feels like an overgrown metro. 

[StefanMUC]

7 hours ago, FYI said:

Again, the more important factor in this case is the country that would perhaps mount this bid. It's a major factor that the IOC will no doubt consider (IOC president Thomas Bach is already acknowledging this, & surely he would know about such things), & not simply ignore it (especially when comparing it to some of the other not-so-suitable options), just because of some sprawl, city-core or not. Let's wait for some of the preliminary plans anyway, if they materialize in the end, before we make final judgement on 

The concept is already out there, even if it was for 2032. I posted it earlier in this thread, and not much would probably need to be adapted.

As for Bach, sure he knows about it. I think there was even a personal intervention in the bitter feud between the German bid/DOSB officials and the IOC future host commission last year when John Coa, sorry, Brisbane was selected so quickly. I’m not convinced that episode helped future chances, even though at least in the meantime the top of DOSB was replaced (because of other scandals).

[fusilli]

10 hours ago, FYI said:

What message? Have you not noticed some of the other long-winded names that some of the bids for 2030 are mentioned about, for example? British Columbia 2030, Barcelona-Pyrenees or Catalonia-Aragon 2030 (before that attempt went kaputt), etc? So what's so bad about Rhine-Ruhr? It's actually less syllables than any of the aforementioned & rolls off-the-tongue rather nicely really. 

There's nothing bad about it, really. Maybe streched too much the river thing instead of picking one or two places. Say, Cologne?

But, of course, it's up to them. They're willing to go river way.. go for it.

[StefanMUC]

4 minutes ago, fusilli said:

There's nothing bad about it, really. Maybe streched too much the river thing instead of picking one or two places. Say, Cologne?

But, of course, it's up to them. They're willing to go river way.. go for it.

There are region specific issues. To create greater sustainability, the already existing high standard venues in that area need to be used. If you call the bid “Cologne” and then 90% of sports will be in other places, this will create a false impression (and expectation when it comes to location of the athletics stadium) and makes it harder to get the broad political support across all communities than with an inclusive brand like “Rhine-Ruhr”. 

[StefanMUC]

And here we go (or rather a good summary where DOSB currently is in the whole bid strategy): 

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1127059/germany-olympic-bid-munich-2022-weikert

Weikert surely is smarter than his predecessor, so maybe eventually something will come out of it, but convincing voters (in Germany, not in Lausanne) still remains the biggest obstacle. I was one of the 40,000 last night btw, and it was absolutely amazing to be part of it!

[yoshi]

Ooh, 40000, that is a good crowd - more than it looked like tbf  Your disadvantage with perception of crowds is that your stadium is so huge, you can get the Alexander Stadium in there twice!

Not sure how to interpret what that guy's saying, it does sound like they're going to choose a candidate more carefully than just picking somewhere that's never tried before and charging in there (Leipzig anyone?) Does he give the impression Rhine Ruhr is still the obvious choice? With the focus on existing facilities, maybe even everything in NRW but with athletics in Munich or Berlin, solves the stadium problem...

(I've got to ask you - could Munich itself host alone again? This championships is showing it off really well after all...)

Edited August 17, 2022 by yoshi

[StefanMUC]

2 hours ago, yoshi said:

 

(I've got to ask you - could Munich itself host alone again? This championships is showing it off really well after all...)

Short answer: IMHO yes.

Long answer: But the IOC would have to make concessions when it comes to venue requirements (e.g. the makeshift velodrome). There’s enough indoor venues in Munich as well as the greater area (Augsburg/Ingolstadt/Regensburg - which even has the biggest baseball park in Germany), and more than enough football venues and great outdoor locations too. But with German federalism at play, while Munich would be the obvious winter choice, I cannot really imagine us getting another slice of the summer cake, more so as the last one still leaves a bitter taste (cue row over compensation between German govt and Israeli victims, still not settled after 50 years and boiling up again these days before the anniversary).

RR should still get the nod, but if an existing athletics venue would have to be involved, a Berlin-Hamburg bid would make more sense to me (though also politically very complicated).

[yoshi]

You have a big advantage over somewhere like London, as there's not really a need for a permanent major athletics stadium legacy with both Berlin and Munich around - so both the Manchester and Birmingham Commonwealth Games options are open. If there's a football club in need of a stadium upgrade then convert it for them, if not then maybe do the original London plan of making it almost all demountable. Is there anywhere else in NRW but not in Rhine Ruhr that could be used?

Edited August 17, 2022 by yoshi

[StefanMUC]

1 hour ago, yoshi said:

You have a big advantage over somewhere like London, as there's not really a need for a permanent major athletics stadium legacy with both Berlin and Munich around - so both the Manchester and Birmingham Commonwealth Games options are open. If there's a football club in need of a stadium upgrade then convert it for them, if not then maybe do the original London plan of making it almost all demountable. Is there anywhere else in NRW but not in Rhine Ruhr that could be used?

Not sure about that, it would also mean more communities need to be involved, complicating things further.

After another athletics night here, this time a bit less frenetic but still good, I hope we at least go for an athletics worlds soon. And tomorrow is Malaika Mihambo night. I guess every single seat will be filled for that one. When she had Covid after Eugene and her participation here was in doubt, it was close to national depression (at least in the German sports universe).

[yoshi]

Will be great to see it full, good luck to Mihambo

Did some looking at the big teams and their stadiums in NRW, it looks like the original London plan is the best bet - any Manchester style converted stadium will be huge, and all the big teams that could fill a 70-80k have very good stadiums anyway. Only one that's getting on a bit is the Westfalenstadion but I really can't see Borussia moving. 

[StefanMUC]

14 hours ago, yoshi said:

Will be great to see it full, good luck to Mihambo

Did some looking at the big teams and their stadiums in NRW, it looks like the original London plan is the best bet - any Manchester style converted stadium will be huge, and all the big teams that could fill a 70-80k have very good stadiums anyway. Only one that's getting on a bit is the Westfalenstadion but I really can't see Borussia moving. 

This might be an option for a temporary extension: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinstadion

Oberhausen has been playing at 4th level for 10 years now but still is dreaming big, and there is a (not usable) track in there, so enough space for that. However, north and south are waterways, might be difficult even for a temporary extension of capacity.

[Chris_Mex]

3 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

This might be an option for a temporary extension: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinstadion

Oberhausen has been playing at 4th level for 10 years now but still is dreaming big, and there is a (not usable) track in there, so enough space for that. However, north and south are waterways, might be difficult even for a temporary extension of capacity.

Why considering the building of a new (or temporary) athletics venues in germany when in berlin we already have this beauty

[yoshi]

Because that's in Berlin and we were talking about Rhine Ruhr... and that's a longer journey than it looks. Maybe the IOC would be ok with it...

As for Oberhausen, that'd be a good place to use (isn't it right in Duisburg?) but the map on that Wiki page does show those waterways very close - could be difficult. 

[FYI]

On 8/17/2022 at 12:30 PM, StefanMUC said:

RR should still get the nod, but if an existing athletics venue would have to be involved, a Berlin-Hamburg bid would make more sense to me (though also politically very complicated).

If some are already complaining about the sprawl of Rhine-Rhur, then certainly a Berlin-Hamburg combo should be out of the equation (besides, either of those cities could host on their own).

Plus, both those cities are hardly Olympic bid friendly anyway. i.e. 2000 & 2024 attempts respectively.

[fusilli]

11 hours ago, Chris_Mex said:

Why considering the building of a new (or temporary) athletics venues in germany when in berlin we already have this beauty

Something that every regional german bid should confront with.. sooner or later. I mean you have this ^^ and you're looking for another?  

But as mentioned before, Berlin didn't put any bid since 2000 which is pretty a big blank time considering how easy the german capital pop up on mind everytime Europe claim its turn. 

 

 

[StefanMUC]

45 minutes ago, FYI said:

If some are already complaining about the sprawl of Rhine-Rhur, then certainly a Berlin-Hamburg combo should be out of the equation (besides, either of those cities could host on their own).

Plus, both those cities are hardly Olympic bid friendly anyway. i.e. 2000 & 2024 attempts respectively.

I just brought up that combo because it would be an opportunity to use an existing Olympic stadium within relatively easy reach of Hamburg. I mean, someone suggested a Madrid bid with athletics in Sevilla…

Besides, travel time (main stations) between those two and let‘s say Cologne and Dortmund is only about 30 min more max.

As said before, RR is currently the likely option, but athletics stadium remains a big headache.

[StefanMUC]

15 minutes ago, fusilli said:

 

But as mentioned before, Berlin didn't put any bid since 2000 which is pretty a big blank time considering how easy the german capital pop up on mind everytime Europe claim its turn. 

 

 

Not exactly true. Berlin was interested in 2024, but DOSB opted for Hamburg instead as that had indicated higher public support. Of course, even that support was not enough eventually.

[fusilli]

3 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

Not exactly true. Berlin was interested in 2024

So, there's still some olympic spark there. Wonder if Hamburg or Ruhr will go along or just being propaedeutic to a future Berlin (or Munich)

[StefanMUC]

That „spark“ exists with city officials and economy interest groups, much less so in the wider population. 

[fusilli]

^^opinions may change along the progress of things.. especially with certain stadia issue.

[StefanMUC]

Yeah well. I doubt that when it comes to Berlin.

[yoshi]

Isn't Berlin known for having a strongly "anti-everything" streak? I have a lot of sympathy with people there who fear gentrification, and Berlin going the way of parts of London with soaring house prices etc. But I suspect it means an Olympic bid in the Bach era wouldn't get very far there. 

(In any case when you've got a conurbation that looks tailor made to provide what the IOC say they want now...why would you go anywhere else?)

[StefanMUC]

^^ exactly, all of that