Tokyo 2036! Let's give them a 2nd chance!

[Sir Rols]

5 hours ago, Olympics2028 said:

If I were a Tokyo resident and fan of the Olympics, I'd be really ticked off at how the 2020 OOC ripped down a big part of the legacy of the 1964 games (the National Stadium and its cauldron) and apparently weren't necessarily going to pull off a repeat of what historians/writers have described as a dignified, honorable event over 50 years ago.

The old National Stadium was showing its age and was really not suited for major events in the 21st century. It could only seat 48,000 people, the large bulk of them uncovered, and its amenities were not up to snuff for current needs. It was already ruled unsuitable for the 2002 World Cup - hence the final was held in Yokohama and no matches were held in Tokyo at all because of it. It was way overdue a major renovation or rebuild. Rebuild was chosen, and the design chosen (after an original Zaha Hadid was rejected) ended up as a tasteful Woden structure with lots of greenery. I’d say they ended up with a pretty good asset for their capital city.

[Olympics2028]

13 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

The old National Stadium was showing its age and was really not suited for major events in the 21st century. It could only seat 48,000 people, the large bulk of them uncovered, and its amenities were not up to snuff for current needs. It was already ruled unsuitable for the 2002 World Cup - hence the final was held in Yokohama and no matches were held in Tokyo at all because of it.

 

Saitama is actually a suburb of Tokyo, somewhat like a more far-away version of Inglewood (and its SoFi Stadium) is to downtown Los Angeles.

Tokyo and Saitama are 25 miles apart.  LA and Inglewood are 13 miles apart.

If anything, this information makes me really question why Tokyo's landmark National Stadium had to be torn down.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/06/29/hosts-left-to-foot-world-cup-bill/d3d41415-54c5-456e-9c0d-0f3ac6367883/

Quote

The 2002 World Cup ends Sunday in Japan, leaving its host countries with empty hotel rooms, a trail of bills to pay, stadiums to maintain and promises of an economic boom unfulfilled.

But the taxpayers who financed the bulk of a $7 billion building binge for the World Cup and still-uncounted costs of security and preparations have not seen the economic return they were promised, according to available information.

The number of fans who traveled here for the games fell far short of predictions. Business at hotels and airlines was actually weaker than normal because travelers who might have come for other reasons stayed away. On top of that, the soccer tourists spent little and left quickly, leaving only a small economic wake.

What is left are 20 grand soccer stadiums, 16 of which were constructed at extravagant cost. Used for only three or four games each, many will rarely, if ever, be filled again, and will be used only sporadically for smaller events.

"We didn't build this based on the principle of making big money," said Machiko Minegishi who manages the newly built, 63,700-seat stadium in Saitama prefecture. The stadium will now be used by the local professional soccer team, which draws an average crowd one-third the size of the stadium's capacity.

 

[Sir Rols]

5 minutes ago, Olympics2028 said:

If anything, this information makes me really question why Tokyo's landmark National Stadium had to be torn down.

Simple. Because it was unfit for the needs and expectations of the 21st century

[Olympics2028]

^ Unless Tokyo is a way bigger sports market than LA Is (although Tokyo does have millions of more people than LA does), I know that having the Coliseum and SoFi Stadium is already stretching things.

If Tokyo doesn't have a USC-type college and a USC-type football team, than their stadiums are even more likely to be underutilized.  Notice how that article says that Saitama attracts only a third of capacity.

I still think this could have been preserved and the alternative needs of the Tokyo area easily served by the stadium built in. for example, Saitama. Moreover, I believe there are other newer stadiums in the Tokyo area that can be used too.

 

 

[Sir Rols]

Nostalgia and tradition is all very well, but there was no point hanging onto it when it wasn’t adequately fulfilling its purpose and was indeed becoming a hindrance to attracting big events. And it’s not as if they got an eyesore in return - they got a modern, elegant, very green new stadium.

Also, sports stadiums and teams do manage to exist and thrive outside the US College system, you may be surprised to know.

[Chris_Mex]

1 hour ago, Olympics2028 said:

^ Unless Tokyo is a way bigger sports market than LA Is (although Tokyo does have millions of more people than LA does), I know that having the Coliseum and SoFi Stadium is already stretching things.

If Tokyo doesn't have a USC-type college and a USC-type football team, than their stadiums are even more likely to be underutilized.  Notice how that article says that Saitama attracts only a third of capacity.

I still think this could have been preserved and the alternative needs of the Tokyo area easily served by the stadium built in. for example, Saitama. Moreover, I believe there are other newer stadiums in the Tokyo area that can be used too.

 

 

You're talking about the old tokyo olympic stadium as if it was wembley, or the maracana

[Sir Rols]

38 minutes ago, Chris_Mex said:

You're talking about the old tokyo olympic stadium as if it was wembley, or the maracana

Exactly. It’s not like old Tokyo Stadium was one of the world’s legendary ones. If Tokyo has an iconic stadium, it’s the Budokan (incidentally, also built for 1964… and used for 2020ne).

Edited March 11, 2022 by Sir Rols

[Chris_Mex]

9 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

Exactly. It’s not like old Tokyo Stadium was one of the world’s legendary ones. If Tokyo has an iconic stadium, it’s the Budokan (incidentally, also built for 1964… and used for 2020ne).

I'd rather say, that even the new one if it get's to host a world cup or an iaaf championship will become one of the legendary ones, it has that potential, but only time will tell. I mean the good side of 2020 is that Japan, unlike Greece or Brazil actually has a competitive athletics, rugby and soccer team that can give the stadium the tenants and the mantainment it needs to be usefull and not become a white elephant. Also as an architecture student, I can tell that this design is better because it perfectly combines with the size and form of surrounding buildings, and uses the wood to resemble ancient japanese temples, unlike zaha's design, which frankly looked like a bike helmet in the middle of the city.

[Olympics2028]

9 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Nostalgia and tradition is all very well, but there was no point hanging onto it when it wasn’t adequately fulfilling its purpose and was indeed becoming a hindrance to attracting big events. And it’s not as if they got an eyesore in return - they got a modern, elegant, very green new stadium.

Also, sports stadiums and teams do manage to exist and thrive outside the US College system, you may be surprised to know.

 

You did see this portion of the article I posted above?

 

Quote

What is left are 20 grand soccer stadiums, 16 of which were constructed at extravagant cost. Used for only three or four games each, many will rarely, if ever, be filled again, and will be used only sporadically for smaller events.

 

Plus, if the IOC and 2020 OOC really wanted to be Earth friendly and eco-green, they'd never have torn down the stadium from the 1964 games. I imagine the amount of carbon that went into building the new place offsets however non-green the old stadium was.

This stadium was designed to at least have a permanent resting place for the cauldron. The designer of the new stadium couldn't be bothered with that detail. Also, the multi-colored seating in the new stadium in IMHO is not a great look.

 

 

[Olympics2028]

9 hours ago, Chris_Mex said:

You're talking about the old tokyo olympic stadium as if it was wembley, or the maracana

 

Of all the stadiums used for an Olympics, I've always appreciated the one in Tokyo more than most other ones. I notice that the stadium used for the 1968 games in Mexico City seemed to partly riff off the one in Tokyo.

The stadium in Berlin for 1936 was impressive in its own way, its main host notwithstanding. I liked the one in another German city - with its modern glass canopy - the stadium for Munich 1972. 

 

[SeriousPotato]

9 hours ago, Chris_Mex said:

I'd rather say, that even the new one if it get's to host a world cup or an iaaf championship will become one of the legendary ones, it has that potential, but only time will tell. I mean the good side of 2020 is that Japan, unlike Greece or Brazil actually has a competitive athletics, rugby and soccer team that can give the stadium the tenants and the mantainment it needs to be usefull and not become a white elephant.

Uh oh. Somebody said something about Rio's stadiums and now SeriousPotato has to chime in. 

Maracanã hosts 45 games per year on average. It could go to 70 if Vasco relocates as proposed. Compare to a typical NFL stadium with 9-12 games per year.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZtvMS0MhlA/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluminense_FC

And aside from Maracana, Rio's Olympic Stadium hosts 30-35 matches per year, with Botafogo. 

https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/278991825865705/estadio-olimpico-nilton-santos/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafogo_de_Futebol_e_Regatas

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you. It's just silly to me how widespread this claim is. 

[munichfan]

2 hours ago, Olympics2028 said:

This stadium was designed to at least have a permanent resting place for the cauldron. The designer of the new stadium couldn't be bothered with that detail. Also, the multi-colored seating in the new stadium in IMHO is not a great look.

The more I think about it, the more I understand the tendency to ceremonies-only, centre floor cauldrons. After all, people are paying hundreds to thousands of dollars to take part in an Olympic opening. And sightlines are just way better when the cauldron is in the middle. Plus, You don't need empty space in the seating bowl, so the same capacity can be reached with slightly reduced material input and the last row being just a tiny bit closer to the action.

As for the multi-colored seating: I love the pattern and the colours. Just like the whole stadium, it looks extremely harmonious, balances and down-to-earth. It is indeed among the most beautiful, if not the most beautiful, athletics stadium in the world in my opinion.

[Chris_Mex]

2 minutes ago, SeriousPotato said:

Uh oh. Somebody said something about Rio's stadiums and now SeriousPotato has to chime in. 

Maracanã hosts 45 games per year on average. It could go to 70 if Vasco relocates as proposed. Compare to a typical NFL stadium with 9-12 games per year.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZtvMS0MhlA/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluminense_FC

And aside from Maracana, Rio's Olympic Stadium hosts 30-35 matches per year, with Botafogo. 

https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/278991825865705/estadio-olimpico-nilton-santos/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafogo_de_Futebol_e_Regatas

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you. It's just silly to me how widespread this claim is. 

I mean, obviously I wasn't talking specifically about brazil when saying thy didn't have a good soccer team. I was refering to their athletics and rugby team. The soccer affirmation goes for greece, even thought they aren't as good as brazil in soccer. Japan doesn't have a tier 1 soccer team as brazil, but yet they are in every world cup, rugby is rising on the island and they have a respectable atheltics team

[Olympics2028]

31 minutes ago, munichfan said:

The more I think about it, the more I understand the tendency to ceremonies-only, centre floor cauldrons. After all, people are paying hundreds to thousands of dollars to take part in an Olympic opening. And sightlines are just way better when the cauldron is in the middle.

 

The 1948 and 2012 games in London both used portable cauldron for their games. In the two instances, the Olympic flame wasn't visible outside the stadium.

The first cauldron built for an Olympics was the one created for the 1928 games in Amsterdam:

 

By contrast, this is the cauldron used for Helsinki 1952:

 

 

So formats where the cauldron is either smaller, temporary, moveable or larger and built into a stadium have been used.

[Olympics2028]

Personally, this is one my favorite Olympic cauldrons:

 

 

[SeriousPotato]

1 hour ago, Chris_Mex said:

I mean, obviously I wasn't talking specifically about brazil when saying thy didn't have a good soccer team. I was refering to their athletics and rugby team. The soccer affirmation goes for greece, even thought they aren't as good as brazil in soccer. Japan doesn't have a tier 1 soccer team as brazil, but yet they are in every world cup, rugby is rising on the island and they have a respectable atheltics team

So what they don't have a renowned Athletics or rugby team; not following how that makes the two aforementioned stadiums white elephants.

Ultimately my point is that you have perfectly fine comments to uplift Japan and advocate your point; there's no need, or reasoning for that matter, to turn Greece and Brazil into punching bags to do so.

[Chris_Mex]

1 hour ago, SeriousPotato said:

So what they don't have a renowned Athletics or rugby team; not following how that makes the two aforementioned stadiums white elephants.

Ultimately my point is that you have perfectly fine comments to uplift Japan and advocate your point; there's no need, or reasoning for that matter, to turn Greece and Brazil into punching bags to do so.

I'm not taking rio and athens as punching bags. You mentioned tokyo olympic stadium legacy opportunity, after the olympics. I'm just pointing out how japan has many ways of getting a good legacy on their stadiums. But as I pointed out on a comment above, only time will tell if it ends up as another athens olympic stadium, or if it get's constantly used as a olympiastadion or a london olympic stadium

[TorchbearerSydney]

Helsinki had 2 flames- the second was on top of the tall Olympic Tower.....

 

[Olympics2028]

^ That's interesting. You got me so curious, I had to check out clips from 1952. I can't figure out exactly how or why the duo-cauldron format was done. If you watch this video, it seems like after the runner lit the cauldron on the ground, some worker lit something presumably at the top of that tower.

Incidentally, I watched a brief clip of 2016's Maracana Stadium and  have seen other summer games' settings like Helskini 1952. I still think Tokyo's 1964 National Stadium gave off what I'd rank as one of the better vibes or visuals for an Olympics.

 

 

[Olympics2028]

You can see the flame at the top of the tower better in this video. It looks kind of odd, sort of ike a tiki torch they decided to add at the last minute. lol:

 

 

[Sir Rols]

8 minutes ago, Olympics2028 said:

^ That's interesting. You got me so curious, I had to check out clips from 1952. I can't figure out exactly how or why the duo-cauldron format was done. If you watch this video, it seems like after the runner lit the cauldron on the ground, some worker lit something presumably at the top of that tower.

Here’s the details:

Quote

 

The flame was brought to the Helsinki Olympic Stadium by the Finnish long-distance runner Paavo Nurmi, himself a winner of multiple gold and silver medals at the 1920, 1924 and 1928 Olympics. He used the torch to light a temporary cauldron on the stadium field.[5]

The actual cauldron was situated on top of the stadium tower, 72 metres (236 ft) above the ground. Four players from a Helsinki football club ran up the tower with the torch, passing it to another Finnish long-distance runner, Hannes Kolehmainen, also a winner of multiple medals at the 1912 and 1920 Olympics, who finally lit the main cauldron.

Wikipedia

 

 

[Olympics2028]

^ I'd never have thought that organizers in 1952 - with the string of torch runners and a tower over 200 feet tall - would do an old-time version of something like this:

 

2004 also covered the running track with a black material that had thin white lines down the middle. They're so thin, I don't know if they were just a guide for choreographing the opening. But in 2012, they made their running track mimic the look of a street.

[TorchbearerSydney]

I actually found a video of the lighting this morning- a man with a  3 metres long flaming stick (like a cotton bud) leaned into an open cage with the cauldron and lit it!

I will never find it again, I wish I posted it!!

[TorchbearerSydney]

 

TOWER LIGHTING AT

6:10

 

 

 

[TorchbearerSydney]

and at 06:20- an unidentified woman barges onto the officials microphone podium and is escorted away- now that's a protest!!!