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baron-pierreIV

Brazil 2014 World Cup...

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The Olympic race is over, now I can freely talk about all the World Cup organizational problems.

1 - As stated by aluz, Morumbi has many problems even with the new project, specially lack of space in its surroundings. It has been criticized over and over, and the Brazilian media likes to say that FIFA is blackmailing São Paulo into building a new white elephant. They're obviously just trying to make São Paulo comply with the FIFA rules, whose existence the committee was aware much before being awarded the WC. The question is if they're gonna get a free pass from FIFA like Berlin got in 2006, or if FIFA will actually play hardball and give the opening match to Brasilia or Belo Horizonte. I think all the criticism to the São Paulo project is deserved, and, if it hadn't been done, the project still would be this arremedo:

estadio_morumbi1.jpg

2 - The announcement of the opening city will be done after next year's World Cup, and Brasilia will only build that fancy stadium (in my opinion, the most beautiful project) if they host the opening match. They have already stated that they'll build a simple, 40,000-capacity stadium, with no roof, in case they're not awarded the opening match. But they have to start building it next March, and I don't know how they'll do that.

3 - The Public Attorney's Office of Natal has entered into court to paralyze the procurement process of the beautiful Arena das Dunas (Dunes Arena) project. Apparently, if the famous Brazilian bureaucracy was throughly respected, the stadium would start being built in 2037, so they skipped a few steps, like getting the municipal, the state, and the environmental approval to the construction.

4 - The federal government has announced a credit line of up to R$400 million reais (around US$220 million) to each city exclusively to the construction of stadia, and the same amount to the construction of infrastructure that were not included in the Growth Acceleration Program (PAC). The cities, especially Cuiabá and Porto Alegre, said that the amount of credit to the infrastructure is ridiculous (Cuiabá was expecting at least 2 billion reais). Cuiaba's mayor had a meeting in Brasília and he was guaranteed that there would be enough money to all cities.

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I propose Argentina group matches to be scheduled to Manaus (12 p.m.), Porto Alegre (10 p.m.) and Cuiaba (12p.m.). They would travel around 7h between matches and face 40C, then 5C, then 40C again. It would be perfect. Either sick or dead tired!

:lol::lol::lol:

I would propose something similar for France, because of 86, 98 and 06! :P

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:lol::lol::lol:

I would propose something similar for France, because of 86, 98 and 06! :P

Let's see how the French turn out without a genious in their team. Between the Platini era and the Zidane era they have not even qualified. For 2010, they are struggling again.

But, if they are strong, we can give them Cuiabá-Curitiba-Foraleza. What do you think?

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The Olympic race is over, now I can freely talk about all the World Cup organizational problems.

1 - As stated by aluz, Morumbi has many problems even with the new project, specially lack of space in its surroundings. It has been criticized over and over, and the Brazilian media likes to say that FIFA is blackmailing São Paulo into building a new white elephant. They're obviously just trying to make São Paulo comply with the FIFA rules, whose existence the committee was aware much before being awarded the WC. The question is if they're gonna get a free pass from FIFA like Berlin got in 2006, or if FIFA will actually play hardball and give the opening match to Brasilia or Belo Horizonte. I think all the criticism to the São Paulo project is deserved, and, if it hadn't been done, the project still would be this arremedo:

I'm sure that São Paulo will host the opening match at the end, otherwise it would originate a huge political crisis between the São Paulo's federation (nowadays, the most powerful) and CBF, even though this decision belongs to FIFA...

São Paulo (the club) is right to play hard. They don't want to possibly sacrifice its future by creating a huge debt, in order to host the opening match. In the other hand, FIFA also plays hard because it's worried with the future of the sport and also wants to show who's the boss. Ay the end, I'm sure they will get somewhere in a middle point, just like happened in Berlin for the 2006 WC.

I really hope we don't need to get to the point of building a new 70,000 seat stadium with the use of public money, besides all the new infrastructure that would be needed.

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Let's see how the French turn out without a genious in their team. Between the Platini era and the Zidane era they have not even qualified. For 2010, they are struggling again.

But, if they are strong, we can give them Cuiabá-Curitiba-Foraleza. What do you think?

Cuiabá is too close to curitiba!

I think Fortaleza-Curitiba-Manaus would be more appropriate...

Don't forget they should change planes at Congonhas Airport, in São Paulo, every time!

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2 - The announcement of the opening city will be done after next year's World Cup, and Brasilia will only build that fancy stadium (in my opinion, the most beautiful project) if they host the opening match. They have already stated that they'll build a simple, 40,000-capacity stadium, with no roof, in case they're not awarded the opening match. But they have to start building it next March, and I don't know how they'll do that.

So, I am standing for SP or BH even stronger. I would love to see Brasilia only with a more modern white elephant. Mane Garrincha stadium is a white elephant as it is, imagine with such a capacity.

I think the 2014 WC must be a celebration of Brazilian football. So, the cities receiving the most important matches in the tournament should be SP, Rio, Porto Alegre and BH. I would make sure that those 4 cities receive the opening match, the final and the 2 semi-finals and the 4 quarter-finals.

Below those I would place Curitiba, Salvador, Recife and Fortaleza to receive the round of 16 matches, leaving the remaining 4 (Manaus, Cuiaba, Natal and Brasilia) to first round matches. They should be pleased to have the honour of hosting matches without contributing to the development of the sport in the country.

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I'm sure that São Paulo will host the opening match at the end, otherwise it would originate a huge political crisis between the São Paulo's federation (nowadays, the most powerful) and CBF, even though this decision belongs to FIFA...

São Paulo (the club) is right to play hard. They don't want to possibly sacrifice its future by creating a huge debt, in order to host the opening match. In the other hand, FIFA also plays hard because it's worried with the future of the sport and also wants to show who's the boss. Ay the end, I'm sure they will get somewhere in a middle point, just like happened in Berlin for the 2006 WC.

I really hope we don't need to get to the point of building a new 70,000 seat stadium with the use of public money, besides all the new infrastructure that would be needed.

The issue is a lot more complex.

1. FPF is not as strong as you think in regards to CBF, which is the real powerhouse.

2. FPF apparently wants the stadium.

3. Sao Paulo FC opposes CBF strongly.

4. It's FIFA's call and Ricardo Teixeira can influence FIFA more than anyone else, including all the politicians in the country.

There is no way that SP will host those games if money is not spent. What FIFA says is that fixing the surroundings of Morumbi can be more expensive and riskier than building a new stadium.

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The issue is a lot more complex.

1. FPF is not as strong as you think in regards to CBF, which is the real powerhouse.

yes... but still most of the CBF money comes from FPF.

I don´t know if Sao Paulo will get the opening match. To be frank, I really don´t care. But the organizing commitee won´t let Sao Paulo out of the World Cup, for sure. They will come with something for Morumbi even if it´s necessary to use public money, but I don´t see them building a new stadium here.

The same Fifa who complain about the surroundings of morumbi today is the same that said the Stadium was excellent when they came here for the Club Championship in 2000. Lame.

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yes... but still most of the CBF money comes from FPF.

That's the opposite. CBF alone makes more money than any other federation or club in Brazil. The big cash cow is the Brazilian national team. FPF, as all other State Federations, needs CBF money to survive. Nike's sponsorship contract and the money they get for the friendly games is more than enough for them to take care of themselves. So, they distribute it to state federations to buy their support. How do you think Ricardo Teixeira gets elected over and over again?

The same Fifa who complain about the surroundings of morumbi today is the same that said the Stadium was excellent when they came here for the Club Championship in 2000. Lame.

A completely different situation. The FIFA Club World Cup did not require the same broadcast infrastructure. By the way, FIFA is not complaining about the stadium, but the surroundings. FIFA still says that the project for Morumbi is good enough for any WC match except 4 (opening, finals and semifinals).

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1. FPF is not as strong as you think in regards to CBF, which is the real powerhouse.

I think FPF competes with FFERJ, not CBF. FPF is below CBF in the hierarchy. Among the regional federations, FPF is the strongest.

2. FPF apparently wants the stadium.

Really? A new stadium? Oh no...

3. Sao Paulo FC opposes CBF strongly.

Do you think CBF could blow their plans im part as a form of revange?

Knowing CBF and Ricardo Teixeira, it could be possible...

4. It's FIFA's call and Ricardo Teixeira can influence FIFA more than anyone else, including all the politicians in the country.

Unfortunally... :(

There is no way that SP will host those games if money is not spent. What FIFA says is that fixing the surroundings of Morumbi can be more expensive and riskier than building a new stadium.

FIFA might be considering only direct investments. I'm sure that fixing the surroundings of Morumbi would be much cheaper than building a new stadium and all the infrastructure around it. Besides it would be somewhere really far way, since there isn't al tot room availble in São Paulo.

Still, I think CBF wouldn't dare to not let SP host the opening match, unless something goes really super badly wrong with the plans. São Paulo hosted the birth of brazilian football...

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I don´t know if Sao Paulo will get the opening match. To be frank, I really don´t care.

Me too! I only don't want to see public money going into it...

I still think it will because of intangible reasons.

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That's the opposite. CBF alone makes more money than any other federation or club in Brazil. The big cash cow is the Brazilian national team. FPF, as all other State Federations, needs CBF money to survive. Nike's sponsorship contract and the money they get for the friendly games is more than enough for them to take care of themselves. So, they distribute it to state federations to buy their support. How do you think Ricardo Teixeira gets elected over and over again?

I understand your point, but FPF is not so dependend of CBF´s money as it seems. They have a lot of sponsorship contracts and concentrate a good number of rich, big clubs. Actually, FPF could run the State Championship without a single cent from CBF, but we all know that today these competitions are not so important (fortunately). The Cup and the national Championships - CBF competitions - are all what really matters and those are the competitions where BIG money is made, besides, as you cleverly pointed, the national team and its sponsors.

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And how are things going for Sao Paulo - 2014 World Cup?

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I think it'll be different, everyones thinkin openin and closing will be in SP or Rio. They shud try innovating, I'm sure Manaus will want the opening, and Belo Horizonte is almost 80,000 capacity so it shud be good.

Opening/closing/semi-finals shud be :

Belo Horizonte

Rio

Sao Paulo

Manaus

Porto Alegre maybe

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I think it'll be different, everyones thinkin openin and closing will be in SP or Rio. They shud try innovating, I'm sure Manaus will want the opening, and Belo Horizonte is almost 80,000 capacity so it shud be good.

Opening/closing/semi-finals shud be :

Belo Horizonte

Rio

Sao Paulo

Manaus

Porto Alegre maybe

Manaus's stadium is under 60.000, so no opening, closing or semi-finals. A second round match would be a great achievement. Besides, for the opening the infrastructure requirements are quite high. BH doesn't have enough hotel rooms and their gap seems too big to be solved in time. Brasilia also has infrastructure gaps but an expansion is feasible. So, it really seems like Brasilia will be the second choice if SP doesn't come up with a decent stadium project.

Rio has no competition for the final match, since it is the only stadium over 80.000 capacity and CBF is building a new training center for the national team next to Rio Centro where the media and broadcasting centers should be implemented.

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You leave in São Paulo, don't you? ;)

Unfortunatelly, in the last year, all my attention was spend in Rio plans for WC and Olympics...

And I meant... The Morumbi project...

I saw last weekend in Consolacao Avenue that buildings for new Line 4 stations are getting ready... (BTW, this line will be useful for me since my friends house, where I stay in SP when I need is in Higienopolis)

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No doubts about final match in Maracana...

I heard some times that Blatter wishes are on put the opening match in Manaus... (Starting in Amazon, ending in Rio)... How true is this? I don't know...

About Sao Paulo. The biggest and financial center of Brazil deserves a modern stadium. My bet is that FIFA thinks Morumbi too ugly to opening a World Cup... (Only a bet :rolleyes:)

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No doubts about final match in Maracana...

I heard some times that Blatter wishes are on put the opening match in Manaus... (Starting in Amazon, ending in Rio)... How true is this? I don't know...

About Sao Paulo. The biggest and financial center of Brazil deserves a modern stadium. My bet is that FIFA thinks Morumbi too ugly to opening a World Cup... (Only a bet :rolleyes:)

Blatter could get Manaus through and that will be as far as he can get. President Lula was in favour of Belém and Ricardo Teixeira sat out for this battle. I can start with a laundry list of reasons why an opening game in Manaus is just a crazy idea and it is never going to happen.

The decision of the opening match is really between SP and Brasilia. BH is a dark horse, since the investment in accomodation they need would be totally useless after the event. And if none of those cities solve their issues, the opening is also going to be in Maracanã.

I think no one will deny the right that SP has to host the opening match, since Rio is locked for the final. The only thing SP misses is a decent stadium project, which could even be a refurbished Morumbi. However, the main obstacle is the lack of will of both SPFC and the SP state and municipal governments to put in the money to complete those projects.

The SP government would probably come with the urban renovation of the surroundings, while the SPFC would have to spend a lot more money in the renovation of Morumbi, besides closing the stadium for a large period. Morumbi has problems of insufficient surrounding area and of internal structure of the stadium (seats too far from the pitch, inclination angle of the lower ring, blind spots and distance for the location of TV cameras). There is no way SPFC will be able to use the stadium if all the renovation is carried out and that's a big loss for the club.

SPFC now has hired a German company to help them with their stadium project, but I think they are still far from a good result, because of the demands of the club, which will not be able to handle the financial burden required.

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1 - The current SPFC project is already too expensive: a R$250-million renovation to a stadium that only generates an annual profit of R$11 million is already overambitious. But what they are putting on the table is still not enough. The capacity is low and SPFC doesn't want to lower the stands in order to get them closer to the pitch. Not the mention the problems in the surroundings, that were only partially resolved in the last project amendment.

There have been reports of people within the São Paulo committee supporting that the city gives up on hosting the opening match, because of not only the problems with the stadium:

É fria

Não é consenso entre os dirigentes do comitê de São Paulo para a Copa de 2014 que a cidade deva brigar para sediar a abertura do Mundial. Na própria prefeitura e no governo do Estado cresce a ideia de que pode ser vantajoso abrir mão do evento, em razão do grande número de exigências da Fifa. "A abertura é uma fria. A Fifa pede isenção de ISS e ICMS e que banquemos os "hospitality centers" para os convidados de seus patrocinadores", diz uma autoridade que participa das negociações.

O TOSTÃO...

Embora possa trazer dividendos políticos às autoridades de São Paulo, o jogo inaugural da seleção brasileira é visto como pouco vantajoso do ponto de vista econômico, se comparado a outras partidas entre seleções estrangeiras. É que elas atrairiam mais torcedores de outros países que "deixam mais dinheiro na cidade", de acordo com a mesma autoridade.

Which is a huge concern considering these will probably be the people in our presidency from 2011 to 2014.

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Which is a huge concern considering these will probably be the people in our presidency from 2011 to 2014.

I don't see it as a concern. For me, it's a sign we are on the way of political maturity.

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1 - The current SPFC project is already too expensive: a R$250-million renovation to a stadium that only generates an annual profit of R$11 million is already overambitious. But what they are putting on the table is still not enough. The capacity is low and SPFC doesn't want to lower the stands in order to get them closer to the pitch. Not the mention the problems in the surroundings, that were only partially resolved in the last project amendment.

There have been reports of people within the São Paulo committee supporting that the city gives up on hosting the opening match, because of not only the problems with the stadium:

Which is a huge concern considering these will probably be the people in our presidency from 2011 to 2014.

I think the problem is not with Serra and Kassab, but with the political climate created around this whole subject by the direction of the big São Paulo football clubs. If we were in the 80's, no one would hesitate to do whatever was needed to get the stadium ready. This whole discussion about giving up on taxes is just a lame excuse, since it has nothing to do with the opening match but the WC as a whole. The problem is that, if the government steps in, it will be taking sides with one of the clubs in São Paulo.

In the 80's Morumbi was used by all big teams for their main football matches, so government money invested in it would be for the benefit of all clubs. Now, the directors of the clubs have become so sectarian that each one has chosen its own stadium and refuses to play their home games in other stadia even if they lose money for that kind of decision. This issue has created situations like the President of São Paulo FC making fun of Corinthians because it doesn't have a stadium and the president of Corinthians promising never to play in Morumbi again. It's obvious that this situation is bad for both clubs, since São Paulo FC loses the rent and Corinthians, with the most fans in the city, loses the potential 30.000 seats to sell in tickets.

Now, if Serra decides to pay for part of the Morumbi renovation, he would be taking sides with São Paulo FC. He would be heavily criticized for using government funds for the benefit of a private institution. If he builds a new stadium, he will be criticized for helping Corinthians, the only club which would be interested in the new venue. So, he is in a political snooker. It is quite clear now that the absence of a viable public stadium in SP is getting in the way of them hosting the opening match.

To make it even worse, SPFC President has the habit of bragging about the city being able to host the WC with little government participation. He convinced the governor and the mayor about it and now it seems clear that this was not true. Now, the people from SP have embraced this speech and turning it over will be almost impossible. So, there are real political obstacles for the government of SP to make this opening match happen. Now, Serra must find a way out, otherwise this could be used against him during next year campaign.

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Things seem to be so complicated right now that the most probable scenario is:

- Sao Paulo will not host the opening match. This honour will go to Brasilia

- Sao Paulo will host games in a restored Morumbi stadium.

- The same stadium will be used to stage some Olympic Games matches.

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Things seem to be so complicated right now that the most probable scenario is:

- Sao Paulo will not host the opening match. This honour will go to Brasilia

- Sao Paulo will host games in a restored Morumbi stadium.

- The same stadium will be used to stage some Olympic Games matches.

I have the same bet...

But, seriosly speaking, Sao Paulo deserves a modern stadium, indeed, to be the city of inaugural match.

This is a thing I don't support Rio... Too many things in Rio, let the inaugural match to other place...

And I'd rather Sao Paulo, but in a new stadium.

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By the way, until this Morumbi thing is not settle, SP still remains the favorite for the opening match. However they will have to pray for GMP (the German company responsible for the project) to come up with a miracle.

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