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This whole discussion about the Morumbi stadium is eclipsing all the other debates about the World Cup, but we have many other problems going on. I'm pretty sure at this point the Brasília will have the opening match and São Paulo will host until quarterfinals with a refurbished Morumbi. And, even if Brasília can't do it, we still have Maracanã. This is the least of our problems.

The real problem is that the works have to start until March, and no public stadium has even published the calling announcement to the procurement/public-private partnerships (actually I think Salvador is the only one that has already done that). Even Rio de Janeiro, with the most potentially attractive stadium in Brazil has been considering to not look for private investors and get financing directly from BNDES, since they think no-one may be interested. But how could they expect anything different? Maracanã, as of today, profits R$3 million a year, for example. And the interested company would have to spend R$450 million with the reform, and then be granted a 35-year concession of the stadium. So, basically, they would have to quadruple the profits to BREAK EVEN. OF COURSE no one will be interested.

I don't think it's feasible to believe that all stadiums will start to be built until March. Actually, right now, I believe that the only ones that will do are those that have assumed no money would come from private partners (Cuiabá, Manaus, Natal and BH). The other ones (Brasília, Rio(?), Salvador, Recife and Fortaleza) will still take some months to get around the idea that, well, no one will be interested.

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For Brazilians: it seems the logo was made to pay honour to a great Brazilian kardecist: LOL!!!

My proposal to Argentina is Natal, Porto Alegre and Manaus in the first leg... LOL

This Bezzi`s coloured version is much better than the original. Good job, Bezzi!

This whole discussion about the Morumbi stadium is eclipsing all the other debates about the World Cup, but we have many other problems going on. I'm pretty sure at this point the Brasília will have the opening match and São Paulo will host until quarterfinals with a refurbished Morumbi. And, even if Brasília can't do it, we still have Maracanã. This is the least of our problems.

The real problem is that the works have to start until March, and no public stadium has even published the calling announcement to the procurement/public-private partnerships (actually I think Salvador is the only one that has already done that). Even Rio de Janeiro, with the most potentially attractive stadium in Brazil has been considering to not look for private investors and get financing directly from BNDES, since they think no-one may be interested. But how could they expect anything different? Maracanã, as of today, profits R$3 million a year, for example. And the interested company would have to spend R$450 million with the reform, and then be granted a 35-year concession of the stadium. So, basically, they would have to quadruple the profits to BREAK EVEN. OF COURSE no one will be interested.

I don't think it's feasible to believe that all stadiums will start to be built until March. Actually, right now, I believe that the only ones that will do are those that have assumed no money would come from private partners (Cuiabá, Manaus, Natal and BH). The other ones (Brasília, Rio(?), Salvador, Recife and Fortaleza) will still take some months to get around the idea that, well, no one will be interested.

I support the decision of the Rio government to delay the invitation for bids with the new BNDES credit line. Even if the public-private partnership approach remains, the conditions have to be reassessed to make sure that the state government is going to get a proper proposal from the bidders. The new credit line changes the return on investment, so the assumptions of the project should be reviewed. The absence of interested party is for the government to blame, since the clubs were forbidden to participate with blew the consortium created by CBF, Flamengo, Fluminenese and the English company that runs the O2 Arena.

Regarding the beginning of the constructions, the analysis should be the opposite. The stadia to be privately funded can start the works whenever is suitable, while the state owned stadia will have to go through a complex bureaucratic process to hire the company to deliver the renovations and constructions. So, the private stadia are probably going to start earlier. By the way, Curitiba has already started. If you watch a match from Atletico Paranaense on TV, take a look at the new seats being constructed there.

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Guys, sorry, with all refurbshment in the world, the three-pararel-rings-style of Morumbi is not beautiful for a inaugural match...

This matters a lot for Fifa.

I know World Cup opening ceremony is ways smaller than Olympics, but is still a ceremony, and Morumbi is a not a dreaming stadium for broadcaster.

Reading between lines, this is the message of Fifa.

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Actually, I believe that we won´t find so many obstacles in hosting the World Cup. The construction/restore of the Stadiums, at the end, will all be funded with public money, so don´t let you be fooled with all those private-partnerships talk.

What really worries me is that all those World Cup arrangements may get all the atention of partners/sponsors/media/government in the next years that the OG project may suffer. I hope it won´t and Government take both events VERY SERIOUSLY

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Actually, I believe that we won´t find so many obstacles in hosting the World Cup. The construction/restore of the Stadiums, at the end, will all be funded with public money, so don´t let you be fooled with all those private-partnerships talk.

What really worries me is that all those World Cup arrangements may get all the atention of partners/sponsors/media/government in the next years that the OG project may suffer. I hope it won´t and Government take both events VERY SERIOUSLY

The Federal Government is only participating through a BNDES credit line. The SP, Porto Alegre and Curitiba stadia will be financed by the football clubs: SPFC, Internacional and Atlético Paranaense. The rest of the stadia is going to be financed by the state government in the vast majority.

Actually the Brazilian government has more commitments with the SOG, in relation to the WC. And in Rio, all the construction will be done by the state government and will be used for the SOG. On the media side, I believe the Brazilian market is big enough to accommodate both events. The WC should rely on the CBF sponsorship (Vivo, Ambev, etc), while the SOG in some of its competition (Coca-Cola, Embratel, etc). Besides both OCs are working together in the communication plan.

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Regarding the beginning of the constructions, the analysis should be the opposite. The stadia to be privately funded can start the works whenever is suitable, while the state owned stadia will have to go through a complex bureaucratic process to hire the company to deliver the renovations and constructions. So, the private stadia are probably going to start earlier. By the way, Curitiba has already started. If you watch a match from Atletico Paranaense on TV, take a look at the new seats being constructed there.

If we consider strictly the stadium aspect, I would say that Curitiba's situation is one of the most worrying. The project presented to FIFA would cost R$138 million. Now that they have been chosen as hosts, Atlético Parananse say that they will spend only R$38 million unless another private partner steps in or the government helps (which will obviously not happen). All in all, this isn't such a huge problem, since Curitiba will probably only receive first-phase games, and the stadium could be used as it is right now. So, this will not really happen:

4200371.projeto_da_nova_arena_da_baixada_para_copa_de_2014_224_298.jpg

But of course Curitiba is a great city and deserves praises for the other aspects, specially transportation.

Also, aluz, most bureaucracy problems such as project approval and necessary permits are already underway to most new stadiums. That is usually what takes up most time in Brazilian construction works. The lapse of time between the awarding of the procurement to one of the bidding companies and the beginning of the construction is usually not longer than 6 months.

Today, good news: Cuiabá will hold the licitation to the construction of the Verdão stadium on November 25th - this will be a normal concession, not a PPP. Like I said, those cities that are not delusional about finding private partners will get things done faster.

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The issue is a lot more complex.

1. FPF is not as strong as you think in regards to CBF, which is the real powerhouse.

2. FPF apparently wants the stadium.

3. Sao Paulo FC opposes CBF strongly.

4. It's FIFA's call and Ricardo Teixeira can influence FIFA more than anyone else, including all the politicians in the country.

There is no way that SP will host those games if money is not spent. What FIFA says is that fixing the surroundings of Morumbi can be more expensive and riskier than building a new stadium.

1. Thats obvious... CBF is to FPF what FIFA is to CBF. But FPF doesn't need cbf's money. In fact, their championship is profitable.

Ricardo Teixeira/FIFA wants the richest city in South America to waste a shitload of money in a new Stadium just to make money for everyone involved, including FIFA officials and Ricardo Teixeira himself.

It just wont happen unless a PTista wins the next State Election... Then, they gonna build a fresh new Stadium for my team (Corinthians :P )

Thats what FIFA "says(wants)". Theres no way that building a new stadium would cost less money.

Anyway, its a bluff... SP will host the OG. They're just trying to force the politicians but the majority of tax payers are against wasting 600-800 millions in a new stadium/its infra-structure just to host the OG.

Btw, CBF ends most of the years on red... (yeh, don't ask me how) They aren't as rich as you think. (Ricardo Texeira in the other hand is richer than we think :P )

I think it'll be different, everyones thinkin openin and closing will be in SP or Rio. They shud try innovating, I'm sure Manaus will want the opening, and Belo Horizonte is almost 80,000 capacity so it shud be good.

Opening/closing/semi-finals shud be :

Belo Horizonte

Rio

Sao Paulo

Manaus

Porto Alegre maybe

Manaus wont host the OG. There isn't a single chance of it happening. I doubt they gonna host the semi-final matches in Manaus too...

Actually, I'm not even sure they will really host any games. Manaus's project is just a waste of money and a big mess.

Pro-Football don't exist there so any big/modern stadium there is just a White Elephant...

They ended up on the final list instead of Belém because of political reasons (FIFA/CBF interests - ie: money, just like they want to happen in SP)

About Sao Paulo. The biggest and financial center of Brazil deserves a modern stadium. My bet is that FIFA thinks Morumbi too ugly to opening a World Cup... (Only a bet :rolleyes:)

Deserves? If FIFA wanted to give a new stadium to SP as a gift I doubt anyone there would complain...

But wasting public money just to build a white elephant isn't correct.

The City of SP have already a lot of stadiums and all stadiums are sub-used. Building one way bigger would just **** everything up...

That would be just a waste of money to have Morumbi / Palmeiras new Arena / Pacaembu / Canindé and the Stadium for the WC.

Anyway, since I cheer for Corinthians, I wouldn't complain with a new stadium for us. :)

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I've learned to never say never when politics are involved, but Ricardo Teixeira stated that there's no "plan B" for São Paulo and Morumbi stadium will host the matches in the city. He stated that a new stadium won't be constructed...

"O comitê organizador de São Paulo recebeu o relatório da Fifa sobre o Morumbi e vai ver a possibilidade de cumprir tudo aquilo que a Fifa determinou. Não há um plano B. Para nós o estádio de São Paulo é o Morumbi"

Source

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I've learned to never say never when politics are involved, but Ricardo Teixeira stated that there's no "plan B" for São Paulo and Morumbi stadium will host the matches in the city. He stated that a new stadium won't be constructed...

Source

There is no plan B, because the mayor and the governor have gathered around Morumbi. He also said that SP would only lose the opening match for itself. Apparently, SP is trying hard to lose it. Good luck, convincing Juvenal Juvencio to go through with a decent refurbishment for Morumbi.

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There is no plan B, because the mayor and the governor have gathered around Morumbi. He also said that SP would only lose the opening match for itself. Apparently, SP is trying hard to lose it. Good luck, convincing Juvenal Juvencio to go through with a decent refurbishment for Morumbi.

I don't really care if Juvenal Juvencio will be convinced or if SP will host the opening match. However I'm happy that there's some indication that a new stadium won't be constructed with public money and then "given" to a private football club.

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I've learned to never say never when politics are involved, but Ricardo Teixeira stated that there's no "plan B" for São Paulo and Morumbi stadium will host the matches in the city. He stated that a new stadium won't be constructed...

It's confirmed that Morumbi will be SP's stadium for the World Cup.

Well Brasilia, open the champagne. You just got the opening match.

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It's confirmed that Morumbi will be SP's stadium for the World Cup.

Well Brasilia, open the champagne. You just got the opening match.

And I wouldn't also count BH out... Aécio Neves has the will to use it as a political platform...

I don't really care, but I still have the feeling that SP will host the opening match, even if a political "free pass" form FIFA will be needed.

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If politics counts, SP is still fighting for the opening match, but I think it will not happen.

Well, I don't really think it will come to Brasilia and doubt it will go to BH ether.

Brasilia may have the hotel rooms and the fine convention center 100 meters from the stadium, but doesn't have the politics support.

BH may have the political support, but their convention center choices aren't so good and they have a huge problem with hotel rooms. They are behind all the other host cities in rooms, except for Cuiaba and perhaps Manaus. during regular weekdays you have a difficult time finding rooms their, imagine with the FIFA congress and all the people coming to the opening game!!!

I know they will improve that, but it's hard to open 25 new hotels in five years.

It's their real question.

SP may have a "bad' stadium option, but they still have Anhembi and more rooms than anywhere else in the country, even Rio. I believe they actually got enough rooms to host a SOG. At least they said so in the 2012 olympic bid. Plus the have those good hotels, like Hilton and Hyatt, where the FIFA committee would sure prefer to be.

I have a hard time to believe SP is going to lose that.

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I would put the main matches issues in a very straight forward way. I will analyze the stadia project and the accommodation and the transport available. All considerations will be weighted with the legacy issue.

1. Rio (almost certain to host the final)

- Stadium project was fully approved and there is no funding issue. However, the State Government has recently changed the approach from a public-private partnership to fully public funding. This change will required the state government to detail its project, which would be part of the prospective private partners effort. So, the new approach has delayed the work by a couple of months. Satdium capacity is above 80.000 people, so the final should be there.

- Accommodation has still some gaps to be filled. However, the former Meridien Hotel should be open within a year and the former Hotel Nacional is going to be sold in an auction after years of judicial battles after its bankruptcy. If additional rooms are needed, the city can resort to cruise ships. Price of hotel rooms are above the major cities average, indicating a strong demand for additional accommodation.

- Transport infrastructure is among the best for the event. Maracanã is currently served by subway and rail links with the main hotel concentration area. By December, the link will be possible without a transfer. By 2014, new stations should allow the whole South Zone of the city to be directly connected via subway. A railway and subway connection will also be established in the Maracanã station. The airport is still under its full capacity, but the old Terminal 1 should be reconfigured to provide more comfort.

2. São Paulo (favorite to host the opening match)

- Stadium project is being roughly criticized by FIFA, despite the sufficient capacity of 65.000 seats. Since the funding is fully private (the stadium is owned by the São Paulo FC), there is uncertainty if the club can cope with the additional investment required for the opening match. The location of the stadium is also a problem, due to the narrow roads and to the lack of space to install temporary hospitality services and broadcasting infrastructure. If the stadium is not approved, it will probably lose the opening match or any semi-final.

- Accommodation is easily compatible with the FIFA requirements.

- Transport infrastructure upgrade is under way with a new station being built around a 1km from the stadium. There is the possibility of a tram to be installed linking the subway station to the stadium. Airport upgrade needed, since both airports are way over their capacity.

3. Brasilia (fighting for the opening match)

- Stadium project is for a new venue fully compliant with FIFA recommendations. The government has made contradictory remarks informing that the stadium would be built for 70.000 only if the city is chosen to host the opening match, otherwise it would be downgraded to 45.000. There are serious doubts about the legacy of this project, since the city has no football clubs and its inhabitants mostly support teams from Rio and SP.

- Accommodation needs to be upgraded, but the city has both available space and demand to meet the requirements.

- Transport is being upgraded with a new LRT linking the airport to the city area where hotels and the stadium are located.

4. Belo Horizonte (fighting for the opening match)

- Stadium project has received many compliments from FIFA. Its capacity will be for 70.000 seats.

- Accommodation needs a very big upgrade and there are serious doubts about the capacity of the BH to support this legacy. The amount of rooms needed would be too much for the demand forecast. The alternative would be using accommodation in Rio and SP which are 1h away by flight, since there is a smaller airport close to the stadium.

- Transport must be upgraded with a new rail or subway link from Down Town, where most hotels are, to Pampulha and with its main airport which is located far from the city. The airport will also require upgrades.

5. Porto Alegre (fighting to receive the Brazil side of the draw semi-final)

- Stadium project has been approved with a capacity for 60.000 fans. Financing will be fully privately funded (stadium owned by Internacional SC), so there are still some doubts about the source of the resources. There is an alternative option which is the new stadium where Internacional main rivals, Grêmio, will play. This new venue would be built by a private company that would be partner of the club in the administration of the stadium. However, if the Gremio stadium is used, the semi-final will be lost since its capacity is for 52.000 seats.

- Accommodation also needs to be upgraded by a large margin. There are also doubts about the city supporting the additional hotel rooms, but the problem is smaller than for BH.

- Transport must be upgraded to link the stadium and airport upgrades are also needed.

Well, combining the above info with what has been said by the main officials (Ricardo Teixeira, Blatter and Valcke) the desired configuration is final in Rio, opening in SP and semi-finals in BH and Brasilia as a consolation prize. If SP can't get the stadium approved, I think the opening match will move to Brasilia and Porto Alegre will get its semi-final. If Brasilia decides to downgrade the stadium in case it gets passed for the opening match, Porto Alegre might also get a semi-final in return.

In the worst case scenario of many cities messing up during the preparations, Rio can get a more prominent place with more than one of those games played at Maracan: opening and final or 1 semi-final and final or even opening, 1 semi-final and final. It will be very difficult for Rio to mess up the preparations because of the OCOG pressure on it, which is larger than that of the WCOC. However, I think this scenario is highly unlikely. The 4 games will probably be held in 4 different cities.

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I would put the main matches issues in a very straight forward way. I will analyze the stadia project and the accommodation and the transport available. All considerations will be weighted with the legacy issue.

1. Rio (almost certain to host the final)

- Stadium project was fully approved and there is no funding issue. However, the State Government has recently changed the approach from a public-private partnership to fully public funding. This change will required the state government to detail its project, which would be part of the prospective private partners effort. So, the new approach has delayed the work by a couple of months. Satdium capacity is above 80.000 people, so the final should be there.

- Accommodation has still some gaps to be filled. However, the former Meridien Hotel should be open within a year and the former Hotel Nacional is going to be sold in an auction after years of judicial battles after its bankruptcy. If additional rooms are needed, the city can resort to cruise ships. Price of hotel rooms are above the major cities average, indicating a strong demand for additional accommodation.

- Transport infrastructure is among the best for the event. Maracanã is currently served by subway and rail links with the main hotel concentration area. By December, the link will be possible without a transfer. By 2014, new stations should allow the whole South Zone of the city to be directly connected via subway. A railway and subway connection will also be established in the Maracanã station. The airport is still under its full capacity, but the old Terminal 1 should be reconfigured to provide more comfort.

2. São Paulo (favorite to host the opening match)

- Stadium project is being roughly criticized by FIFA, despite the sufficient capacity of 65.000 seats. Since the funding is fully private (the stadium is owned by the São Paulo FC), there is uncertainty if the club can cope with the additional investment required for the opening match. The location of the stadium is also a problem, due to the narrow roads and to the lack of space to install temporary hospitality services and broadcasting infrastructure. If the stadium is not approved, it will probably lose the opening match or any semi-final.

- Accommodation is easily compatible with the FIFA requirements.

- Transport infrastructure upgrade is under way with a new station being built around a 1km from the stadium. There is the possibility of a tram to be installed linking the subway station to the stadium. Airport upgrade needed, since both airports are way over their capacity.

3. Brasilia (fighting for the opening match)

- Stadium project is for a new venue fully compliant with FIFA recommendations. The government has made contradictory remarks informing that the stadium would be built for 70.000 only if the city is chosen to host the opening match, otherwise it would be downgraded to 45.000. There are serious doubts about the legacy of this project, since the city has no football clubs and its inhabitants mostly support teams from Rio and SP.

- Accommodation needs to be upgraded, but the city has both available space and demand to meet the requirements.

- Transport is being upgraded with a new LRT linking the airport to the city area where hotels and the stadium are located.

4. Belo Horizonte (fighting for the opening match)

- Stadium project has received many compliments from FIFA. Its capacity will be for 70.000 seats.

- Accommodation needs a very big upgrade and there are serious doubts about the capacity of the BH to support this legacy. The amount of rooms needed would be too much for the demand forecast. The alternative would be using accommodation in Rio and SP which are 1h away by flight, since there is a smaller airport close to the stadium.

- Transport must be upgraded with a new rail or subway link from Down Town, where most hotels are, to Pampulha and with its main airport which is located far from the city. The airport will also require upgrades.

5. Porto Alegre (fighting to receive the Brazil side of the draw semi-final)

- Stadium project has been approved with a capacity for 60.000 fans. Financing will be fully privately funded (stadium owned by Internacional SC), so there are still some doubts about the source of the resources. There is an alternative option which is the new stadium where Internacional main rivals, Grêmio, will play. This new venue would be built by a private company that would be partner of the club in the administration of the stadium. However, if the Gremio stadium is used, the semi-final will be lost since its capacity is for 52.000 seats.

- Accommodation also needs to be upgraded by a large margin. There are also doubts about the city supporting the additional hotel rooms, but the problem is smaller than for BH.

- Transport must be upgraded to link the stadium and airport upgrades are also needed.

Well, combining the above info with what has been said by the main officials (Ricardo Teixeira, Blatter and Valcke) the desired configuration is final in Rio, opening in SP and semi-finals in BH and Brasilia as a consolation prize. If SP can't get the stadium approved, I think the opening match will move to Brasilia and Porto Alegre will get its semi-final. If Brasilia decides to downgrade the stadium in case it gets passed for the opening match, Porto Alegre might also get a semi-final in return.

In the worst case scenario of many cities messing up during the preparations, Rio can get a more prominent place with more than one of those games played at Maracan: opening and final or 1 semi-final and final or even opening, 1 semi-final and final. It will be very difficult for Rio to mess up the preparations because of the OCOG pressure on it, which is larger than that of the WCOC. However, I think this scenario is highly unlikely. The 4 games will probably be held in 4 different cities.

Couldn't agree more. Believe too, despite what have being said on press, that Brasilia has more chances than BH to get the opening match. People forget the FIFA congress is going to be in the same city.

About the stadium in Brasilia, the local government (GDF) will probably end up building a stadioum with capacity between 50,000 and 60,000 to make sure the city get some important game anyone.

the governor has lost of money and really want to spend it making the city better known. The local population, as well, until now didn't think is a bed idea to spend a lot of their money constructing some white elephant. So it will probably be larger than 45,000 seats.

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Jerome Valcke thinks Morumbi is too ugly. Period.

The biggest concern on FIFA is putting the opening match in what they consider a 'ugly' stadium. And I have a similar opinion on being the ugliest in the World Cup.

Indeed, the more projects Sao Paulo show, more projects are rejected for the opening match. SP will be on the WC, no doubts, but I dare that with Morumbi SP will open the tournament.

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Jerome Valcke thinks Morumbi is too ugly. Period.

The biggest concern on FIFA is putting the opening match in what they consider a 'ugly' stadium. And I have a similar opinion on being the ugliest in the World Cup.

Indeed, the more projects Sao Paulo show, more projects are rejected for the opening match. SP will be on the WC, no doubts, but I dare that with Morumbi SP will open the tournament.

They can always digitize Morumbi's look for the telecast. It'll probably look phony...but they wouldn't have to spend fixing it up then!! :lol:

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Would be great the OG in one of those.

I would like the Final Draw to be held in Foz do Iguaçu or Manaus too. Imagine the draw with the water falls behind it. ;)

Surely Iguazu Falls would be a great background but probably the 2014 Final Draw wil be head in Rio as well.

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well, they're NOT holding the 2010 draw against Victoria Falls, are they? Or the USA 1994 draw was not held against Niagara Falls.

Where do you guys get your ideas? They need to hold those draws in the controlled confines of a studio or a convention center, primarily for technical reasons ...not uhmmm...in some rain forest. :blink:

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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well, they're NOT holding the 2010 draw against Victoria Falls, are they? Or the USA 1994 draw was not held against Niagara Falls.

Where do you guys get your ideas? They need to hold those draws in the controlled confines of a studio or a convention center, primarily for technical reasons ...not uhmmm...in some rain forest. :blink:

Well, not sure they could hold it against Victoria Falls, since the falls lies in the border between Zambia and Zimbabwe and between the site and S. Africa there is the entire Botswana. But I got your point.

However, Foz do Iguaçu isn't like Victoria Falls. It's much closer to Niagara Falls. There are three cities from three countries and a population of some 600,000 people in the three together. Also, in the Brazilian side the is a large hotel from the Orient Express luxury chain of hotels at a walking distance from the falls, so they could, perhaps, put the necessary technical stuff there. But got that point two.

The weird thing is that the president of the Brazilian Confederation (CBF) has said that the draw could be held in one of the cities that applied to host games, but lost. These were Belem, Florianopolis, Rio Branco, Goiania and Campo Grande (Anyone outside the country has ever heard about any of them? :lol: ).

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