runningrings Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 ^^ Nailed it! Athens 2004 was a timeless classic. I watched it again recently and it struck me how much it could have been from 2012, without question. I feel Beijing's Ceremonies have a bit of this timelessness too - except for moments like the human-made birds nest. Looking even at aspects of Sydney's ceremonies and they look just as 1990's as Atlanta. I think London's will age very badly, but then again it was an Olympics Ceremony for the moment, without care. The social networking segment will look ridiculous even in a few years from now. Can you imagine a tribute to the wonders of the fax machine at Seoul 1988? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 The fact that Baron (we all know his level of aesthetics...) hates Athens OC so much made some of us even more confident about our opinion. So, keep up the good work Baron! D.P. should be grateful to you. The best thing in Athens Opening Ceremony is that it could be staged today 8 years later and it still would look new, bold and powerful. By minimalism and the general appeal to Humanity and not only greekness, they achieved a timeless feel to that show. That's not the case with other memorable ceremonies that while we hold fond memories of them, after a couple years we laugh a little on the cheesiness of some concepts and the general feel that 'that show is from the 90's' or 'that show is from the 80's' and so on. You could say "But we're not that far from the 2000's to make such assumptions". Well, Torino 2006 was enjoyable but their use of technology and theatrics look very this is the new cool stuff IMO. Timeless? It looked fake and pretentious. There's nothing wrong with Ceremonies being representative of their time. They oughtn't be anything else. It's Seoul 1988, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004, etc. -- not Munich 2314 or Athens 2424, FGS! That being said, only an oudated Greece would present itself with Vangelis, reenactments of the Illiad/Odyssey or the theft of the Olympic Flame, Mediterranean Battles and Lightning Gods: leave that to pop culture. And an Opening Ceremony is NOT supposed to be a sparkling consumable show of frivolities and stereotypes. Pffffft. Then what is Greece? A high-tech nation? Of course not. Therefore the show is false and misleading if it portrays things that are NOT of the host culture. How about space ships? That's very avante. DP just didn't know what he was doing. He admitted so himself...and you guys actually bought his mediocrity hook, line and sinker. Sorry, the whole show just didn't, to use an appropriate pun, hold water. It broke water too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 ^^ Nailed it! Athens 2004 was a timeless classic. I watched it again recently and it struck me how much it could have been from 2012, without question. I feel Beijing's Ceremonies have a bit of this timelessness too - except for moments like the human-made birds nest. Looking even at aspects of Sydney's ceremonies and they look just as 1990's as Atlanta. I think London's will age very badly, but then again it was an Olympics Ceremony for the moment, without care. The social networking segment will look ridiculous even in a few years from now. Can you imagine a tribute to the wonders of the fax machine at Seoul 1988? I think the social media segment might well date, but not in the way you think and a Seoul 88 fax machine is pretty much the worst analogy possible. The fax machine is a defunct technology (for good reason), but the conecpt underpinning it - global communications - is more relevent than ever. Similarly, the networks we use like Twitter and Facebook may be clunky ancient history in a few decades, but I'm certain social media will be bigger than ever. I reckon in 20-30 years time, if you showed a teenager that segment of London's ceremony their reaction will be: 1. To instantly recognise social media - they won't ask what's going on, or why a dead (because it won't be) technology is being celebrated They'll absolutely get it. This is why I don't like you fax machine analogy. 2. To laugh at the 70sn and 80s soundtrack accompanying something so familiar to them. This might grate. 3. To find it funny that something so mundane and everyday - something they've known since they were children - is being celebrated, but on the other hand to absolutely intuitively understand why it was being celebrated in such a way in 2012. The social media segment, rather than a Seoul 88 Fax Machine, might look more like those demonstrations C19th showmen did with that weird and wonderful stuff - "Electricity" - all accompanied by hits from the Music Hall (If It Wasn't for the 'Ouses in Between etc). None of us now would question the importance of electricity, but we would find their celebrations of it - and the show - a bit odd. Back on topic anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with having something very "now" in the ceremonies. There's a lot to be said for timelessness, and Greecee was absolutely THE ceremony that could afford to take that direction, but I think having an element that places the ceremony in its time in history is actually rather nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 , but I think having an element that places the ceremony in its time in history is actually rather nice. It's more than nice; it's preferable. After all, in 4 years' time, London 2012 will take its place in the panoply of IOC posters and records. That's what you are given--a certain time and place in history, to sit alongside those that have gone before. Oh yeah, Athens...when was that? 1896? 1944? 1991? 1996? 2007? 2108? And the greatest regret of Athens '04 for me is that it didn't look like the $90 million+ that ATHOC had budgeted and spent on it. Jack Morton made a killing there; and the Greek people got kinda gypped in the process. $90 million for 'mannequins' and minimalist stuff?? A lot of money for an empty stage just for naive people to exclaim: wow! how original! Wanna buy a used hot-air balloon for $25 mill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Mata Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Timeless? It looked fake and pretentious. There's nothing wrong with Ceremonies being representative of their time. They oughtn't be anything else. It's Seoul 1988, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004, etc. -- not Munich 2314 or Athens 2424, FGS! Surely there's nothing wrong with ceremonies being representative of their time. We need this to study a history of art. Timelessness is an achievement that ceremony held for almost its full length, but this doesn't mean Athens 2004 should be the new template for ceremonies. Sydney got joyfulness, Beijing got it big sized and so on. And aren't those cultural elements those 3 countries seem so proud of? Virtually every field of culture, language, science and art eventually stumbles upon at least one greek philosopher every other day. That's the very definition of a classic, or as we're calling it here, a timeless ceremony. Seeing today, the only ageing I can see in Athens 2004 OC is the part with the runner traveling from 1896 to 2004: that's basically the only reminder of that year. Pffffft. Then what is Greece? A high-tech nation? Of course not. You're not greek. Most of us here aren't. It's not up to foreigners to tell what a culture is or isn't. How uncomfortable would you be if you, as American, were denied a right of self determination? So, what if Greece (or any other country) isn't a high-tech nation? That's embarassingly absurd even for your humour standards, Baron. And by the way, Greece has such an influence that you're using a greek word (tech) to say they're irrelevant... Therefore the show is false and misleading if it portrays things that are NOT of the host culture (greek word alert!). Athens 2004 focused on universal values that were born there and shared with the whole Western Civilization. Some of our first (and standing) concepts of humanity, civilization, narrative and sport are greek heritage and everything was there in Athens Welcome Home theme. How this is not greek? How this aren't your recognizable well know icons? Using recognizable and well-known icons (greek! greek!) is fine because per the IOC Charter (GREEK), the host is supposed to 'showcase their culture.' How can one showcase their culture if they show weird, outre things with such obscure references that your average viewer becomes quite befuddled and the show becomes a head-scratcher. No weird 'pop' performers; save those for the Closing (G-R-E-E-K). A country's culture is not defined by your standards of weird, outre things with such obscure references. That's just XVII century etnocentrism, ignorance and a pitiful inability to expand one's own cultural horizons. It's great when entertainment can puzzle, challenge and teach the audience and the 2004 show was such a cathartic (oops! greek again) show that almost anybody who didn't skip high-school could grasp the symbolism. I've notice some people here study some form of art (myself included) or are enthusiasts and seeing Baron make such strong and inflexible statements about Athens 2004 (and recently London 2012), I came to question myself what is his background on that, what are the formal categories he places on table? We could understand him a lot more if he could clarify his readings on the subject, because even an opinion can be dismissed if there's no ground: we call it trolling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Sorry, Victor, I reject your arguments. Irrelevant. I just don't find extolling any more words about it the way you do, is worth my time and effort. So sue me for NOT buying the Athens pretense. Sue me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Mata Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Yours have been rejected for years and here they're plastered again. Irrelevant, much? Don't be lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Yours have been rejected for years and here they're plastered again. Irrelevant, much? Don't be lazy. Rejected! Anyway, this thread is about a hypothetical 'what would make for a good ceremony?' And we can go back to...by avoiding (some of) Athens' pitfalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Rejected! Anyway, this thread is about WHAT I THINK 'what would make for a good ceremony?' There.. no need for you to beat around the bush, we all know why you created this thread. if you really wanted to have an open discussion on what makes for a good ceremony, you wouldn't have started this thread with the pretense that you're going to be rating everyone's opinion. No, as usual, this is about your opinion so that you have yet another excuse to try and push what you like and anyone who disagrees with you is just wrong. Again, who saw that coming, except for.. EVERYONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 There.. no need for you to beat around the bush, we all know why you created this thread. You really wanted to have an open discussion on what makes for a good ceremony, you wouldn't have started this thread with the positive step that you're going to be rating everyone's opinion. As usual, this is about others' opinion so that you can consider theirs. Of course, it helps if your opinions are alike. Again, who saw that coming, except for.. ME? Well, isn't that what opinions and fora are for? So what do you think? No mannequins? No claiming human DNA is a Hellenic thing? What else? But seriously, you are getting to be like AF, twisting my words again. C'mon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikarus360 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 *sigh* Why every topic like this always ends up with ANOTHER fight about the Athens ceremonies? I tought we should had get over with already. Anyway...I think that no matter how spectacular it is, if the performances are not well organized and conected each other with a relevant theme or story, the whole ordeal will seem confusing and chaotic. A good narative is what also makes a ceremony good, and you dont always need to make so much flashy things in order to touch the hearts of the people who are watching it. Also the final performance should be a conclusion of the whole message of the show, and it should be a very touching and memorable moment as well. To mention an example, both the Torino and London ceremonies were very spectacular but lacked connection between segments. It seemed at times like it had an identity crisis and didnt knew how to group very well the message of the show (For example, in London, despite Pandemonium was probably one of the best segments I ever saw on an olympic ceremony, everything which followed lacked connection and seemed at times like a random mash up of things, despite they were spectacular. Also, the last cultural performance "Abide with me" was, IMO, very anticlimatic to conclude the show before the athletes entered, and I would had put it somewhere between the protocol segments which followed later. ) That's my sincere and honest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Well, isn't that what opinions and fora are for? So what do you think? No mannequins? No claiming human DNA is a Hellenic thing? What else? But seriously, you are getting to be like AF, twisting my words again. C'mon! Just calling it like I see it. I'm not weighing in with my opinion of Athens' Opening Ceremony because I don't want to get involved between the 2 factions of "it was an amazing, breathtaking ceremony, why won't you accept that" and "it was overrated, why won't you accept that." And yet this is still a discussion here with both sides pushing back against each other. Whether or not it was good or bad is still a matter of opinion by anyone's standards. If you want to continue to play your McLaughlin Group routine where you want to talk down to people for the sake of talking down to people, don't get so defensive when people want to treat this forum as something more than your personal sounding board. If you really "don't find extolling any more words about it the way you do, is worth my time and effort" then why was it worth your time and effort to create this thread which you knew would devolve into something like this the minute anyone questioned your opinion of Athens? Give it a rest, baron. We get you feel differently about Athens 2004 than most here. You don't need remind everyone and then tell them they're wrong because they disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 /\/\ Thanks, Ikarus, for bringing the thread back on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Just calling it like I see it. I'm not weighing in with my opinion of Athens' Opening Ceremony because I don't want to get involved between the 2 factions of "it was an amazing, breathtaking ceremony, why won't you accept that" and "it was overrated, why won't you accept that." And yet this is still a discussion here with both sides pushing back against each other. Whether or not it was good or bad is still a matter of opinion by anyone's standards. If you want to continue to play your McLaughlin Group routine where you want to talk down to people for the sake of talking down to people, don't get so defensive when people want to treat this forum as something more than your personal sounding board. If you really "don't find extolling any more words about it the way you do, is worth my time and effort" then why was it worth your time and effort to create this thread which you knew would devolve into something like this the minute anyone questioned your opinion of Athens? Give it a rest, baron. We get you feel differently about Athens 2004 than most here. You don't need remind everyone and then tell them they're wrong because they disagree with you. No; I disagree. That wasn't my intention when I started this thread. I wanted some sort of hypothetical consensus/discussion. But I knew too that the few Athens supporters would stick in their two drachmas' worth (see...you've just pushed me into that corner again) and claim it was a gift from the gods...which is isn't/wasn't. And I strongly defend my position to disagree. So I merely prepared for that. Nothing wrong with preparing for the storms ahead, is there? U're really not adding anything positive or edifying to this discussion, Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 No; I disagree. That wasn't my intention when I started this thread. I wanted some sort of hypothetical consensus/discussion. But I knew too that the few Athens supporters would stick in their two drachmas' worth (see...you've just pushed me into that corner again) and claim it was a gift from the gods...which is isn't/wasn't. And I strongly defend my position to disagree. So I merely prepared for that. Nothing wrong with preparing for the storms ahead, is there? U're really not adding anything positive or edifying to this discussion, Q. See that's the thing though.. you gave us a rundown of what makes for your ideal ceremony. Then someone disagrees with you (and yes, he mentioned Athens 2004 at the end of the post, but few, if any of those points had to do with that ceremony), and you write back in your trademark larger font "You produce your show; I'll produce mine." Maybe it's just me, but that sounds less like looking for a consensus or discussion and more like you're not interested in someone suggesting to do things differently than you'd do then. I've weighed in on the parade of nations. I agree with running's view on the language issue and that Ode to Joy is unnecessary (at least as part of protocol). I'm with you on the entrance of the flag and the lighting of the flame (it needs to be done through actual contact.. unless there's something akin to a flaming arrow since that was pretty cool, as opposed to what Torino did which was not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athensfan Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 DP just didn't know what he was doing. He admitted so himself...and you guys actually bought his mediocrity hook, line and sinker. First, DP did not say that. Second, most OC directors do the event once and in that sense they are all "inexperienced." Finally, "bought his mediocrity hook, line and sinker," yet you accuse me of hubris. Laughable. I mean totally comical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 **** me, this forum's gone downhill massively lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deawebo Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Well, it doesnt has to boring, that's the most important thing! It needs to be original and showcase the host country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 **** me, this forum's gone downhill massively lately. Gee, you noticed that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted November 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 **** me, this forum's gone downhill massively lately. It started with the comments of 'runningpsrings' and this Crab-LOUIS-salad-poster -- our "downhill" experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athensfan Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 **** me, this forum's gone downhill massively lately. There's not a great deal to discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Mata Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Maybe the next years will be seen as steep downhill since 2014, 2016 and 2018 won't be at the doorstep (Europe/Anglosphere) of most members here and interest on the games proper may fade a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningrings Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Interesting point, in terms of web interest, with 2014/16/18. However even if these Games don't garner the same online local community London and Vancouver did (which I doubt they will), I'm sure things will get very interesting when the 2024 bids start to heat up- with the potential for two North American cities, European capitals, South Africa, Gulf States and Asia still all realistic contenders - it might well be the biggest thing since the 2005 race for 2012. There will be blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athensfan Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 It would be nice to have a more exciting race. 2022 looks to be pretty tepid as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenadian Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 If you want theatre, go to Broadway or the West End. The Olympics are about sport. And if you cut the athletes parade, you cut out the most important part. If you find it boring, than don't watch. Or do your laundry or watch reruns of Friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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