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Quaker2001

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Everything posted by Quaker2001

  1. So we would boycott on principle? The IOC is not decent. We know this. They're not going to pull the plug, and it's not as if there weren't people who pointed to human rights violations back in 2001 when Beijing got awarded the 2008 games and had questions in the lead-up to those Olympics. You are still not answering the fundamental question though. Who would you hope is accomplished with a boycott of the 2022 Olympics? If all you have is "just do it on principle," then it's going to be an empty gesture that will not lead to any sort of meaningful change.
  2. I think I've made it crystal clear that Trump will not act rationally. He'll make a major stink about this to rile up his supporters and to all but wage war with China. I have little doubt that will be a thing. I'm not so sure with Biden. But you can't default to "he may not act rationally" and use that do make a case for inserting your own narrative. You need to provide a "why" there. Of course anti-China sentiment is high right now because of COVID-19, among other things. The question is still what would a boycott of the 2022 Olympics accomplish? Is that a political statement that might actually resonate? Because the United States seemed more than eager to support the 2008 Olympics when there were still human rights issues. I know the situation has changed since then, but what is the means to an end here? Is there a hope that China might see this statement and actually change their ways? Or is this going to be another 1980 boycott where at the end of the day, it accomplished virtually nothing and so the only fallout from that decision was a lot of athletes lot out on their Olympic dreams. You say the politicians who might apply pressure won't care about 2028, but you know who will care? The USOC. How many people have said they don't want to see sports and politics intertwined (even though they often have with the Olympics)? What's that going to look like if the most populous nation on the planet doesn't show up in 2028 and does so in part our of retaliation? Sure, the 1984 Olympics are remembered fondly, but that's also because they followed all troubles with the Games in the late 60s and 1970s. Didn't hurt matters that the United States won a crap ton of medals. Also helped that Romania and China attended. The official line from the Soviets back then was they didn't feel comfortable here because of the anti-Soviet sentiment running throughout this country. Do you know how much anti-American sentiment there is throughout the world right now? You don't think other countries could point to us and some of our political positions and have an easy excuse to not support us? You're right we don't know what the future holds, but for us to skip an Olympics in China and not have a very cogent argument to do so is not going to go over very well. It's guaranteed to do damage to the Olympic movement (which again, Trump probably would rally for anyway) and therefore hurt the prospects of those 2028 Olympics we're looking forward to. Bottom line.. tread carefully. Don't underestimate the enormity of the statement a boycott would make and the long-term ramifications it could have
  3. This is an Olympic bid forum. By default, we are going to spend more time discussing and thinking about the possibility of a boycott than Joe Biden might. If he wins the election (again, G-d help us if he doesn't), he's going to have a thousand things to deal with. Is the Beijing 2022 Olympics going to important enough on his agenda to spend the time and effort to use to make a major statement? That this is in the Winter of 2022 means that it's well clear of any major election cycle. You can't just throw the idea of "political radicalism" out there and assume this will be something the president in 2021 wants to make a big deal out of. Trump we know will make a stand and we know the reasons why. Saying that Biden is anti-China should not necessarily lead to an assumption he'll feel strongly about an Olympic boycott.
  4. Yes, Trump may throw a temper tantrum(p), but he doesn't have that kind of power. And someone I doubt he wants to napalm business interests in Southern California because that's going to make for one hell of a mess with 2028 with the contracts that exist on both sides. I don't doubt that he may try to do something ridiculous like that, but it doesn't mean he would succeed. That's absurd that US athletes should think they can't go to 2022. Again.. why? What would American athletes not competing in China accomplish? Would China suddenly be friendlier with Hong Kong as a result? Once again, you are STILL not answering the question. What is the purpose of an American boycott of the 2022 Olympics?
  5. Would it have though? Would history have changed if the United States didn't show up in Berlin and give the Germans a spectacle? Might have been an important statement by the United States, but I doubt it would have slowed Hitler's rise to power and his determination to wage war on Europe.
  6. And how much of all that with China is new material that didn't exist back in 2008? Suddenly it's an issue now that the United States needs to make a stand against? Again, is the goal to "spite" China? Or actually attempt to force a change in their international policy? Because if it's the former, it's going to come off as petty and likely will accomplish nothing. History tells us that the only thing that really happened with the 1980 boycott is that a lot of athletes lost out on a once in a lifetime chance to compete at the Olympics. That boycott you could argue was out of spite because I seriously doubt they expected the Soviets to leave Afghanistan if Western nations didn't show up in Moscow. Also remember that it was a Russian dissident that largely spurred on Carter's efforts to push for a boycott. If that's only coming internally this time, I don't know how powerful a message it would be for the American president to say "we're not sending athletes to China." I know why Trump would do that. I don't know why Biden would
  7. "to do something".. okay, is that something a boycott? Again, what would that intend to accomplishment? What is the end game here that Biden would hope to accomplish a move like that? And yes, there's no comparison between Trump and Carter. Their motivations for a boycott are completely unrelated, so to say "well, they both led a boycott of an Olympics (assuming Trump plays that card)," that's largely where the similarities end.
  8. Might be? So you think the United States will boycott on "might be"? What specific behavior are we not tolerating that we would refuse to send an Olympics team to China? Particularly after we sent one there in 2008. You didn't answer the question. What would the purpose of a boycott that you think the United States and other Western nations might accomplish? We'll never know how history might have changed if the United States really knew what was going on in Germany in the mid-1930s and didn't send a team to Berlin. But this isn't 1936. It's 2020. The notion of a 1936 boycott had a fairly specific agenda. So did 1980. What's the agenda here? Again, with Trump as president, I can already see the narrative forming. Not with Biden. To say he's anti-China is not cause for him to organize and support a boycott.
  9. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, so it's terrible logic to try and conflate the 2. What does history tell us about the 1980 boycott? That in hindsight, it was a dumb decision. It was a virtually pointless gesture in terms of affecting global politics. And the only thing that changed was that a large group of athletes forever lost their Olympic dreams. They were the ones who were hurt more than the Soviets. So what exactly is the hope that a 2022 boycott would accomplishment? Do we really think China will change because a handful of prominent Western nations didn't show up in Beijing? Is this retribution for the virus? If you think Biden would make a political statement (forget Trump.. we know any statement he makes will be solely about him and his ego), what would that statement be? It can't just be "grrr, we're angry at China, let's piss them off by boycotting their Olympics." That's an empty gesture that, much like Carter in 1980, will be remembered as a pointless political move that served absolutely no means
  10. There is no comparison between Biden and Trump on this one. None. To repeat what I said above.. if Trump wins, he will push for a boycott, not because he is anti-China, but to fuel his own ego and to rile up his base. And for no other reason. No amount of advice is likely to do much on that front. Different with Biden. He knows that a boycott isn't likely to accomplish anything, so it's not a matter of advisors talking him out of it. Someone would have to talk him into it in the first place. And while Trump can't still be president in 2028 (unless he were to lose and run again), if Biden wins, members of his team could still be there in 2028. So they'll knew what the ramifications are of boycotting 2022 with regards to 2028. It'll serve little purpose, especially without a lot of backing from other countries as we saw with the 1980 boycott.
  11. How so? You're talking 8 years from now, so we don't know what US-China relations will look like by that point. Who or what gets served by having China skip out on the 2028 Olympics, particularly if it's in retribution to any political agenda that might have been laid out years earlier?
  12. No. Don't consider that. In fact, erase that thought from your head immediately. That's a boycott any way you want to spin it. A lot of athletes get only 1 shot at an Olympics. No one is going to sit it out just because they feel bad for other athletes. That's not solidarity. That's stupidity. If athletes are fearful of travelling to China or supporting that country in any way, that's understandable. But I can promise you, there won't be a single athlete that says "I feel sorry for the wrestler who didn't get his moment.. I'm giving up my chance as well!"
  13. I'll believe it when I see it. Does the United States really want to boycott 2022 knowing it all but guarantees that China won't be here in 2028. And we know how big of a deal that was for them to show up in LA in 1984. If Trump gets re-elected (G-d help us if that happens), I'm sure he'll push for a 2022 boycott because someone will plant the idea in his head and he'll rile up all his supporters, and they'll force the USOPC's hand to cave in. If Biden wins the election?.. not sure sure he'll push so hard to make that kind of political statement, especially without a groundswell of other politicians pushing him for it. And I don't think that's going to happen. Should there be a more coordinating worldwide effort involved here, that's a different story. But again, how does the United States or France or Italy become a part of that when they're in bed with the IOC and did so after they had already awarded an Olympics to China? Because then that torpedoes the value of their investment and I'm not sure that's a route they'll want to be forced into. Let alone LA 2028 who is NOT backed by the government and relies on private funding. So that hurts them big time if a country representing 1/5 of humanity (as they reminded us with their 2008 pitch) isn't in attendance, and who knows what other countries might join them in solidarity.
  14. No one will say that last part. Stefan hit on it perfect.. China will maintain (as best they can) a happy face for the rest of the world knowing a lot of eyes will be on them for the next year and a half, as if there's already not a ton of scrutiny because of COVID-19. They won't do anything before February 2022 or else other countries will reject them and that's not what they want to project to the rest of the world. After that, then all bets are off
  15. Why would athletes not feel safe in China? Yea, the pandemic isn't over. That makes just about every country out there unsafe at this point. I don't see why China is somehow a scary place to be simply because that's where the virus originated from. The 1 thing 1 know we can count on from them is that they'll sanitize their world image and clean things up when everyone is focusing their attention on them. Yes, all of this is dependent on the situation with the virus being better in 2022 than it is now. Of course, there's another Olympics before then. Does Japan not need to worry about Covid?
  16. Who cares about fair? This is the IOC we're talking about. I'll believe in boycotts when I see them. You really think the USOPC would boycott an Olympics in China knowing it's almost certain that China would decline to come here in 2028? No shot. And should Tokyo not be able to host next Summer because of the pandemic, do you really think the IOC would punish themselves and tell China they're a no go? Right now is a pretty bad time for Olympism. Let's hope the state of the world, both in terms of the pandemic and other human rights issues, gets better in the next 12 months. I'm hopeful the virus can be reigned in to the point it's safe to have sports again (I plan on doing my part for that on November 3rd), but considering it was no secret that China did not in fact clean up their act after the 2008 Olympics, clearly the IOC does not consider human rights issues a dealbreaker.
  17. That's not how this works. The IOC is about to cut off their nose to spite their face. If the pandemic continues and it's not safe to hold the 2022 Olympics, that's one thing. But if Tokyo can't go, there's no shot the IOC is going to turn to China and say "you screwed things up for everyone.. no Olympics for you either, we're shutting it down" That would make absolutely no sense. Japan is struggling enough to try and put on the Tokyo Olympics. The last thing they need is to have another Olympics just a few months later. As is, I still wonder about their enthusiasm to bid for 2030 given what it's costing them to put on the 202One Olympics
  18. Who is ruling it out and thinks it won't happen? We have no idea what the world will look like 4 or 8 or 12 months from now. It doesn't need to be said, not by Dick Pound or whoever in a forum, that the Olympics might get cancelled. I think we all know that at this point. However, if they don't get cancelled...Tokyo Olympic schedule remains the same, venues lined up
  19. I don't care you're replying to an old comment, but it's missing the point completely to lose the point of reference when that comment is made. Yes, Sapporo said they're interested in bidding. That was before the 2020 Olympics got postponed by a year and will cost Japan a huge sum of money. And it's far from a guarantee that next summer will go off so smoothly. So add all that up together and are we confident Sapporo is going to bid for the 2030 Olympics? Because now it's going to be a year later that they are done with Tokyo and a lot more money spent, so they may have reservations about spending billions more on another Olympics when a lot of Japanese citizens aren't so sure they want the first one to happen.
  20. You're replying to a post from September. A couple of things have happened with the world since then that perhaps might affect whether or not Sapporo is in the game for 2030.
  21. The 1994 World Cup still holds the record for highest attendance, and that was with only 24 teams before they expanded. So clearly it wasn't that horrendous. Yes, I know the stories about European fans used to travelling by train who found it a little tougher to get around. Did Brazil not have to deal with that? Russia? And I'm pretty sure fans will welcome the North American experience with open arms after dealing with a World Cup held in Qatar. So save the sanctimonious nonsense as if the US-Canada-Mexico bid wasn't an obvious choice for 2026 over Morocco. It'll be an outstanding World Cup. And remember with expansion comes the new group stage format. 1/3 of all the teams will only play 2 games, so travel is not likely to be a major concern.
  22. This is FIFA we're talking about. Who once chose Qatar over the United States. So yes, it wasn't 100% that Australia/New Zealand would win, even against a less interesting bid
  23. You were saying... Australia & New Zealand Win Vote To Host 2023 FIFA Women’s World Cup
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