Hamburg 2024

[LatinXTC]

Yep, seems like us Germans can't see a good thing when it's right in front of us...utterly laughable!

Well, in all fairness to them Hamburg against Paris and LA were a longshot, despite my support for the bid. Still, putting in a successful bid is not only good for potentially hosting the games in the future, it also would help boost interest in all of Germany. Hamburg could play a role similar to that of Brisbane and Melbourne to finally get Sydney the games, if they showed renewed interest in hosting. And it could have also boosted some popularity among Munich and the Garmisch area population in allowing the games to happen.

But another loss in referendum will further deteriorate support for the Olympics across the country, and Germany shouldn't even bother for another 2-3 Olympic cycles.

[Nacre]

In fairness Hamburg would need to build a lot, and it is hard to justify spending money on stadiums and arenas with no obvious long term use in an era of war and economic hardship. I don't think a "No" vote shows stupidity or cowardice. "Pessimism" is probably more accurate.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

Let's be real: Even if the Yes side wins after all, there's still Paris, LA and Euro 2024 going against it. Might have held people back as well.

Euro 2024 is unlikely to happen, now that the German FA's own corruption has been exposed as well - so whatever they're smokin over in Frankfurt...

Paris and LA would indeed be huge obstacles to mount - compelling and iconic, the two of them. Nonetheless, given that Europe is unlikely to get any Games in the event of a non-LA city triumphing, a NO to even applying is kinda foolish. Then again, that's typical for the mentality prevalent among many Germans (especially from the political left) who are unwilling to see beyond their own pedantic NIMBY concerns (you can also see that in the country's reflexive rejection of military action, even if the targets in question are the murderers from Daesh).

[StefanMUC]

NIMBY isn't depending on political sides. In the refugee crisis, it's clearly conservatives who are the mist obvious NIMBY.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

In fairness Hamburg would need to build a lot, and it is hard to justify spending money on stadiums and arenas with no obvious long term use in an era of war and economic hardship. I don't think a "No" vote shows stupidity or cowardice. "Pessimism" is probably more accurate.

On that basis, most Olympic bids in Western democracies would have never occurred. Germany doesn't have a responsibility to carry the moral burdens of the entire world. Colour me jaded by the permanent NO to Olympic endeavours in Germany, but most opponents are just opposed to anything to do with foreign investment, multinational companies etc. Instead of just obstructing the Games, the opponents could have constructively engaged the YES side with concrete proposals to improve the bid. I seem to remember that the AOC and Sydney 2000 worked with Greenpeace to built the "sustaniable Olympics" theme...

[StefanMUC]

On that basis, most Olympic bids in Western democracies would have never occurred. Germany doesn't have a responsibility to carry the moral burdens of the entire world. Colour me jaded by the permanent NO to Olympic endeavours in Germany, but most opponents are just opposed to anything to do with foreign investment, multinational companies etc. Instead of just obstructing the Games, the opponents could have constructively engaged the YES side with concrete proposals to improve the bid. I seem to remember that the AOC and Sydney 2000 worked with Greenpeace to built the "sustaniable Olympics" theme...

Or people just reflect on whether it's worth throwing tax money at the likes of IOC or FIFA or IAAF. Recent scandals didn't help.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

NIMBY isn't depending on political sides. In the refugee crisis, it's clearly conservatives who are the mist obvious NIMBY.

Careful now!

I'm centre-right, but also happy to help the refugees, provided they are properly registered, equipped with identity cards and given access to German language courses and basic education about our constitution and values. As the child of non-white immigrants myself, I don't think that's too much to ask. Further, I'm quite disappointed by the utter failure of the rest of the EU to fairly distribute the refugees and restrict the flow of illegal immigrants. It's just unfair on Germany and, quite frankly, both citizens and permanent residents who have earned their residencies through pretty tough requirements.

That said, the nutcases from the AfD/Pegida camp and some voices in the CSU have me worried about a drift into a less-than-helpful direction in the entire refugee debate.

Or people just reflect on whether it's worth throwing tax money at the likes of IOC or FIFA or IAAF. Recent scandals didn't help.

Good point. But the Hamburg bid strikes me as a rather transparent affair. Not sure what more organizers can do to satisfy the NO crowd...

350 out of 556 precincts reporting

YES 48%

NO 52%

Margin 12,100 votes

[StefanMUC]

Careful now!

I'm centre-right, but also happy to help the refugees, provided they are properly registered, equipped with identity cards and given access to German language courses and basic education about our constitution and values. As the child of non-white immigrants myself, I don't think that's too much to ask. Further, I'm quite disappointed by the utter failure of the rest of the EU to fairly distribute the refugees and restrict the flow of illegal immigrants. It's just unfair on Germany and, quite frankly, both citizens and permanent residents who have earned their residencies through pretty tough requirements.

That said, the nutcases from the AfD/Pegida camp and some voices in the CSU have me worried about a drift into a less-than-helpful direction in the entire refugee debate.

Good point. But the Hamburg bid strikes me as a rather transparent affair. Not sure what more organizers can do to satisfy the NO crowd...

I didn't mean to attack you personally on the refugee issue, in fact I agree with most of what you said there.

As for the Hamburg bid being transparent, it still doesn't help when the other side is wrecked by scandals and seen very critically.

I didn't mean to attack you personally on the refugee issue, in fact I agree with most of what you said there.

As for the Hamburg bid being transparent, it still doesn't help when the other side is wrecked by scandals and seen very critically.

Also, de Maizière first pushing for a bid and then failing to guarantee the sum from the federal govt foreseen in the bid plan certainly didn't help either.

[LatinXTC]

I'm centre-right, but also happy to help the refugees, provided they are properly registered, equipped with identity cards and given access to German language courses and basic education about our constitution and values.

A bit off topic, but what does the refugee program in Germany entail? Ours in the US the process takes up to 2 years, if not more. And it actually does just what you mentioned, it helps integrate and get accustomed to American society. Yet right-wing nutjobs don't get that our vetting process is very strict. And AFAIK those terrorists that have affiliated themselves with attacks such as 9/11 and the Boston bombing didn't come over here as refugees, they came here abusing legal systems like student visas, as well as I believe some even crossed the Canadian border to get here, not the Mexican border.

[Nacre]

On that basis, most Olympic bids in Western democracies would have never occurred. Germany doesn't have a responsibility to carry the moral burdens of the entire world.

It is important to note though, that in previous periods of history there was little social obligation. European countries not obliged to take in refugees from around the world before the 1970's or so, or try and fix the economic problems of the Eurozone before the Euro was created in 1999.

Fairly or unfairly, not only is there a lot of hardship and uncertainty in Europe but Germany is being looked upon to fix it.

[Daze]

Well, my German fellows here, let´s face it, there won´t be german Olympic Games in our lifetime.

What a sad day.....

Even if the chances would´ve been not too big, throwing your hat in the ring would be a chance for future bids.

Now I don´t see any other german city who would be so crazy and try to bid.

Always against everything. That is this country in 2015!

[Olympian2004]

I must say that I had quite bad feelings already before this referendum, with the opinion polls showing dwindling support for the 2024 bid and the unclear financing, especially the not really helpful attitude of the federal government. So it's disappointing but not a major surprise to me that the no camp mobilised its supporters better today and will probably carry victory in Hamburg.

And as Daze said it: I really see very dwindling chances that we will ever experience Olympic Games in Germany in our lifetimes. Most certainly, there will be no Olympic Games on German soil within the next 20, 30 or even 40 years. The constant opposition against Olympic bids is a major, major blow against Germany's Olympic ambitions and any reasonable sports official will now refrain from any further German bids for the foreseeable future.

Hamburg would have hardly stood any chance in the race against Paris, Rome and Los Angeles - but as it has been said before, it would have been important for Germany to show presence in an Olympic bid race again and maybe build a base for later bids. Now Germany faces a very grim future regarding hosting the Olympic Games. Munich 1972 will sadly remain the last and poignant page in Germany's Olympic host experience storybook for a long, long time.

[LatinXTC]

I must say that I had quite bad feelings already before this referendum, with the opinion polls showing dwindling support for the 2024 bid and the unclear financing, especially the not really helpful attitude of the federal government. So it's disappointing but not a major surprise to me that the no camp mobilised its supporters better today and will probably carry victory in Hamburg.

And as Daze said it: I really see very dwindling chances that we will ever experience Olympic Games in Germany in our lifetimes. Most certainly, there will be no Olympic Games on German soil within the next 20, 30 or even 40 years. The constant opposition against Olympic bids is a major, major blow against Germany's Olympic ambitions and any reasonable sports official will now refrain from any further German bids for the foreseeable future.

Hamburg would have hardly stood any chance in the race against Paris, Rome and Los Angeles - but as it has been said before, it would have been important for Germany to show presence in an Olympic bid race again and maybe build a base for later bids. Now Germany faces a very grim future regarding hosting the Olympic Games. Munich 1972 will sadly remain the last and poignant page in Germany's Olympic host experience storybook for a long, long time.

I think Hamburg had a good chance of placing ahead of Rome.

[Olympian2004]

And to add something: I'm not even sure whether it was a good idea to launch a new German Olympic bid so soon after the Munich 2022 disaster. I think that DOSB (the German NOC) and all other officials should have taken a longer hiatus from Olympic bids and offering the German people a chance to stand back and watch how other Olympic bids fare, especially under the (hopefully) positive consequences of the IOC's Agenda 2020. The German officials wanted too much too soon.

I think Hamburg had a good chance of placing ahead of Rome.

Maybe, but still it would have probably been defeated quite crushingly.

[LatinXTC]

Perhaps, PERHAPS Berlin would consider bidding for the 2036 Olympics. If there is a perfect time for Germany to showcase its change from its past, it would be the 100 anniversary of the 1936 Berlin Olympics when the city was littered with Nazi propaganda. I think it's a far more meaningful bid than a 2024 Paris bid in terms of historical meaning.

[StefanMUC]

Perhaps, PERHAPS Berlin would consider bidding for the 2036 Olympics. If there is a perfect time for Germany to showcase its change from its past, it would be the 100 anniversary of the 1936 Berlin Olympics when the city was littered with Nazi propaganda. I think it's a far more meaningful bid than a 2024 Paris bid in terms of historical meaning.

Remember, Berlin lost the domestic race to Hamburg because it had less public support. It would need a lot to overturn that, even if it's still 12 years away before time to decide that.

[Olympian2004]

Perhaps, PERHAPS Berlin would consider bidding for the 2036 Olympics. If there is a perfect time for Germany to showcase its change from its past, it would be the 100 anniversary of the 1936 Berlin Olympics when the city was littered with Nazi propaganda. I think it's a far more meaningful bid than a 2024 Paris bid in terms of historical meaning.

Gosh, heaven, no! Apart from Berlin being an even bigger stronghold of "NOlympia" activists and supporters: That date 2036 would create even worse headlines and opinions for and about a new German Olympic bid. If Germany wants anything, then certainly not some sort of "Berlin 1936 Memorial Games", even if they would follow totally different intentions.

[LatinXTC]

Gosh, heaven, no! Apart from Berlin being an even bigger stronghold of "NOlympia" activists and supporters: That date 2036 would create even worse headlines and opinions for and about a new German Olympic bid. If Germany wants anything, then certainly not some sort of "Berlin 1936 Memorial Games", even if they would follow totally different intentions.

While that's true, it's still over 10 years away before Berlin would consider putting in a bid for 2036. And I have a feeling the German OC will more than likely WANT a bid for those Olympics just for that. And NOlympia may not even that strong, if even around, in that time.

[Rob2012]

What a disappointment.

[StefanMUC]

While that's true, it's still over 10 years away before Berlin would consider putting in a bid for 2036. And I have a feeling the German OC will more than likely WANT a bid for those Olympics just for that. And NOlympia may not even that strong, if even around, in that time.

Going by its level of incompetence, it may well be the German NOC that won't be around any more in 10 years' time.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

Perhaps, PERHAPS Berlin would consider bidding for the 2036 Olympics. If there is a perfect time for Germany to showcase its change from its past, it would be the 100 anniversary of the 1936 Berlin Olympics when the city was littered with Nazi propaganda. I think it's a far more meaningful bid than a 2024 Paris bid in terms of historical meaning.

Forget it: Can't you already see the headlines? "Berlin applies to host centenary of Nazi Olympics!" Yeah, that's gonna make for amazing publicity - apart from the obvious disdain Berliners already have for all things corporate and ambitious. Plus, the recent cost overruns and massive of the megalomaniac international airport won't exactly help. That doesn't even begin to cover issues like runaway debt, massive welfare rolls and a very active far-left scene. No, Berlin is a non-starter.

As for Hamburg 2024: An utterly disgraceful result. Clearly, the get-out-the-vote operation was the first test of the Olympic bid committee's ambitions - and it failed spectacularly, despite a massive, concerted YES campaign which even got Hamburg's biggest public broadcaster involved. Of course, as Stefan has previously indicated, this ain't just the fault of complacent Hamburgers or naysayers who just love to bash all international influences that might promote a free-market view of things: the federal government massively f'ed up when they refused to commit to the financial guarantees needed - a major issue thus being left unresolved. Additionally, the IOC/FIFA/UEFA/IAF and other sports organizations have not exactly had a great run lately - and there is justified scepticism of their motives (including things like draconian intellectual property requirements, sponsorship deals meaning that there may not even be German beer served at the Olympic Games (yes, this actually matters!) and the dreaded Olympic Lanes, which egalitarian Germans wouldn't accept).

Nonetheless, I'm sad to say that once more German citizens completely blew it: they were presented with a sustainable, transparent plan to secure the Olympic Games and turn Hamburg 2024 into a real-world example for compact Games. Instead, they went with provincial, narrow-minded attitudes once more. Congrats NIMBYs, you destroyed Germany's credibility in the IOC for the foreseeable future. There are many other countries lining up to get the Games, and Germany won't be one of them. It's evident that referendum campaigns don't work with a vague question like the Olympic Games. Give the people a clear, fully-costed question; be upfront about how much it will cost (including the expected cost overruns) and that it won't be of immediate economic benefit. Then, maybe, Germany might finally present a credible bid to the world. After the spate of NO votes from the likes of Oslo, Munich, Hamburg and the threat of a NO in Boston, the IOC (in an ideal world) ought to wonder what is going wrong with its image. I suspect that Bach & Co won't confront that question anytime soon, thanks to the likes of China etc.

Utterly sad for Germany, but I'm backing Paris now for the Olympic Games.

*massive delays

[LatinXTC]

Going by its level of incompetence, it may well be the German NOC that won't be around any more in 10 years' time.

lol oh, you, thinking that Olympic Committees are the voice of reason with or without changes in who's in charge. Remember, this was an OC that thought 4 years was enough time passed by to attempt another Munich-Garmisch bid. And our OC thought the residents of Boston would want the bid when in fact they didn't. OCs are known to be so far detached from the common man that they don't consider what the public wants. So regardless of who's in charge of the OC at that time, or even what Berliners want, I expect the German OC to show some interest in some capacity. If it fails, which more than likely it will, then it fails. But it's not for lack of trying though.

[StefanMUC]

Well, another German bid bites the dust then (the sixth one since Munich 72)...

And each and every time it was either bad timing, incompetent bids/NOC or a combination of both. Nobody ever learned from past mistakes.

Olympic bidding in Germany is well and truly dead now: Munich is burned, Hamburg is burned, Berlin didn't even get the chance to be burned (and it would have, no doubt), and no other city is able anyway. It's about time heads are rolling in the NOC, and it should really put Thomas Bach to shame that for the second time since he became IOC President, his home country slaps him in the face like that, even despite the big Agenda 2020 PR.

It's frustrating, yet not too surprising.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I am very annoyed by those stupid people who voted no - I am shocked...

[StefanMUC]

Also, and I know some of you will disagree, I think this new success for bid opponents will again fuel opposition in other potential bid cities, especially in (Central) Europe, even though circumstances may be completely different. I'm looking at you, Switzerland and maybe Austria, in particular. Given Hamburg's ties to Northern Europe, this could also have implications for future Scandinavian bids too.