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Currently, South Africa's economic health is better than either Italy or Spain, and possibly even the UK.

What? Spain and Italy could undergo catastrophic economic meltdowns and their economies would still be vastly stronger than South Africa's. And you want to throw the UK in there? That's a joke.

While South Africa's economy isn't a disqualifier - they aren't that far behind Brazil - it is still a big weakness and sure as heck isn't a strength compared to Spain and Italy.

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Such as what, exactly?

Currently, South Africa's economic health is better than either Italy or Spain, and possibly even the UK.

South Africa has never staged an event that will cost about a mulit-billion dollars.

Faster, any chance Toronto changes mind.

2024 would look like the most likely bid spot or Toronto would have to wait till the 30's/

2024 bid process opens in 2015 when the Pan Am Games are finished. The last city to host the Pan Am games will host the Olympic Games in 2016.

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I think it's dubious to conflate FIFA's selection process with the IOC's. We know FIFA's a corrupt mess.

And...I think a Polish bid might be viable if there's a city with enough hotel rooms.

And Istanbul is a European city. B)

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I think it's dubious to conflate FIFA's selection process with the IOC's. We know FIFA's a corrupt mess.

And...I think a Polish bid might be viable if there's a city with enough hotel rooms.

And Istanbul is a European city. B)

Not after delays in building 4 stadiums (Poland). Istanbul is both Asian and European.

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South Africa has never staged an event that will cost about a mulit-billion dollars.

Well, what do you think nine (9) stadia, hotels, convention centers for World Cup 2010 cost? $23.45? :blink:

The World Cup must've cost them somewhere in the $13-15 billion range which is close to what the UK/London is spending for next year's Games. However, 2010's expenditures were spread out through nine metropolitan areas.

Tell me, if Durban according to the Toronto boosters here, is so "far behind," then why would the President of the IOC encourage, ask...almost "beg" them to bid with Durban (which obviously has the right July-August weather)/CapeTown? Why was RSA/CapeTown deemed ready by the IOC for the 1997-2004 race, and then now all of a sudden, because "Durban" is feared as the inevitable winner for the 2024 (TWENTY YEARS LATER, mind you) race, and you guys somehow want to squeeze Toronto in there, all of a sudden, RSA's #3 city is still in the Dark Ages? Please, do you really think the IOC is so dumb as they can't connect the dots? Oh, please. :rolleyes:

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Have you ever been or actually lived thru an Olympics, Faster?

Where did you get that figure? :blink: That would be the greatest mass movements of people in history, over 4 days. I mean how many weeks does it take to move people to and from the refugee camps of Darfur?

I believe the MAX # of people who would come to a 21st century Olympic city and stay for a few days would be an est. 750,000 and that's stretching it. The 750,000 would be spread out in groups over the entire 17 days Just look at how the tour operators package their Olympic business -- and that's for very well-heeled people. People with lesser means will just come for a mere 3 or 4 days -- and again, nearly all the visitors will be coming in waves.

Show me where you got the 2,000,000 figure. Did China keep an honest count, if they did at all? Remember that maybe for every 100 out-of-towners who come to town, perhaps 25 or so locals leave town to avoid the crowds or rent their houses. Not everybody wants to hang around when the hordes are in town; so there is a net figure of bodies staying in town. It's NOT just bulging because of the influx. There is an uncounted OUTFLUX. So NO WAY would 2,000,000 people come on an "Olympic Saturday." And I've lived in 2 cities that have HOSTED the SOGs, Faster, and nowhere was this clearer than on the freeways during the weekends in LA and Atlanta. The freeways were like ghost towns on the Olympic weekends and I personally lived 1984 and 1996. So that totally blows your "2,000,000" number out of the water.

Really. I read that number he just threw out there & said "WTF". If that's the case, ANY city in the world would have trouble dealing with this. Including "wonderful" Toronto.

And Durban has many facilites already in place, like the new Olympic-ready Stadium. The brand-new airport, & yes, it did have problems during semi-finals day, but that issue will be looked at & corrected long before an Olympics come to town. Durban also has the Kings Park Sports district that would host many of the events. Seriously, the only thing that's the biggest issue is the hotel space. And if Rio & Sydney can find a solution to it, so can Durban.

Seriously, alot of you Toronto trumpteers are simply magnifying Durban's weaknesses. Akin to what the IOC does with places they have already been to, & only glorify the bids that they want to go to the most like Rio. As we all know, the new-frontier bids DON'T need "the best bid", they just need one that WORKS, & Durban & South African can provide at least that.

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Really. I read that number he just threw out there & said "WTF". If that's the case, ANY city in the world would have trouble dealing with this. Including "wonderful" Toronto.

And Durban has many facilites already in place, like the new Olympic-ready Stadium. The brand-new airport, & yes, it did have problems during semi-finals day, but that issue will be looked at & corrected long before an Olympics come to town. Durban also has the Kings Park Sports district that would host many of the events. Seriously, the only thing that's the biggest issue is the hotel space. And if Rio & Sydney can find a solution to it, so can Durban.

Seriously, alot of you Toronto trumpteers are simply magnifying Durban's weaknesses. Akin to what the IOC does with places they have already been to, & only glorify the bids that they want to go to the most like Rio. As we all know, the new-frontier bids DON'T need "the best bid", they just need one that WORKS, & Durban & South African can provide at least that.

Agree 100%

Toronto supporters are so caught up in the "abilities" of bid cities, and what I have learned is that it doesn't matter as much with the IOC. If you make the shortlist, you CAN host an Olympics. Sentiment and geopolitics are what separates the winners from the losers in the applicant phase.

Sorry to say Toronto will be lacking in both of those departments for 2020 and 2024.

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/\/\ There are also MAJOR port renewal plans in Durban in place. I believe they are opening the other part of the coastline for 21st century-shipping facilities; and my guess is, revamping the old port for major cruise line business, when the industrial section is up and running.

We used to have a rather well-placed Durban poster here. Where is he now?

Toronto is probably more than capable; and I understand our young'uns here want to see their city bid as much as anyone else. But they're doing the "Spain/France-winter" number. They seem to forget that they've already had THREE Olympics and one with the ice still just melting from 18 months ago.

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A desire for an African Olympics doesn't magically make one feasible. The IOC has desired an African Olympics for a long time... but has rejected prior African bids. They wanted one in South America for a long time... the rejected several bids from there before accepting Rio. The IOC doesn't just say, "Oh, we want an African Olympics, here's a bid from somewhere in Africa, let's give it to them." An African city has to put forth a feasible bid.

Note that *South African* hosted the world cup. If the IOC wants to change rules and let South Africa host the Olympics they might be ready. But the Olympics are hosted by a city, and there is no city in South Africa that, on its own, is close to being ready for what the IOC requires. It will take massive building and spending to get there.

You are darn right the South Africa isn't Greece. Greece, for all its financial problems, is still a rich country in the grand scheme of things. Essentially 100% of Greeks have clean water, proper sanitation, electricity on demand, etc. South Africa isn't even close. South Africa has said than in 2020, it's more important to spend money on improving those basic services rather than on Olympic white elephants. What's going to change by 2024? Is South Africa going to be a whole lot wealthier? Is the IOC going to back off some of their expensive requirements?

Will there be an African Olympics? Sure, someday. But the notion that all South Africa has to do is turn in the paperwork and they guaranteed ignores some glaring realities. If that's all it took, we would have already had one.

All of this rhetoric if coming from someone that thinks fricken Tulsa can actually host the Olympics! :huh:

I never said that the desire would "magically" make an African Olympics appear, or all South Africa has to do is just turn in "paperwork". Stop being so condescending & taking things out of context. South Africa already did turn in "paperwork" back in 1997 & the IOC said no.

But again, all South Africa needs is a workable plan that would satisfy the IOC, just like Rio did. It doesn't need to be the Beijing-style grandness that the Chinese threw either. It'll be a long time coming before another host city outdoes Beijing.

And do you actually think that "100%" of EVERY Chinese & Brazilian has "clean water, proper sanitation, electricity on demand, etc". That's a fricken joke of an analogy & one that just spells out hypocrisy & double standards.

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>> But again, all South Africa needs is a workable plan that would satisfy the IOC

Well, yeah. But we are a long way from knowing whether any South African city has a workable plan, or when they will be prepared to have one. Several posters here have already written in South Africa for 2024... to the point of arguing other cities shouldn't even bother trying. I say that until we actually see such a plan, nobody should be scared off.

As for South Africa's deficiencies with basic services, I don't mention those to say they can't host (in fact, I explicitly said that their economic position doesn't preclude them from hosting.) Just making it clear that it's insane to argue that South Africa is in better financial shape than Spain and Italy.

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>> But again, all South Africa needs is a workable plan that would satisfy the IOC

Well, yeah. But we are a long way from knowing whether any South African city has a workable plan, or when they will be prepared to have one. Several posters here have already written in South Africa for 2024... to the point of arguing other cities shouldn't even bother trying. I say that until we actually see such a plan, nobody should be scared off.

FYI, your turn or mine?

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I am sure that more IOC members share Nawal's opinion on the matter then yours.

I would take Nawal's comments with a grain of salt, since she more than likely has her own country's ambitions in mind. And if that were the case, why haven't more IOC members been vocal about it. Especially when Rogge is practically in bed with the South Africans. I think Nawal didn't need to be so vocal about it if that really were the case.

FYI, your turn or mine?

:lol: I was just getting ready to counter, but I'll let you do the honors this time. I'm starting to get tired fending off these South African haters, lol.

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:lol: Touche!

No it cost about $1 billion us dollars (for the stadiums) everything else does not count. For the Olympics you need $4 billion for venues alone.

As for Rogge begging South Africa to enter the race, doesn't he do that with every bid that comes out of the blue?

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1. No it cost about $1 billion us dollars (for the stadiums) everything else does not count. For the Olympics you need $4 billion for venues alone.

2. As for Rogge begging South Africa to enter the race, doesn't he do that with every bid that comes out of the blue?

1. $1 billion only for NINE stadia? What? They employed slave labor? Or not unless Costco-South Africa sells these stadia in a take-out package?

"Why does everything else not count"? You mean hotels, roads, hospitality facilities, press centers, etc., etc., are separate? Is that a Toronto-kind-of-school-of-Games accounting? :blink: Never heard of such a thing.

2. I don't know...has he asked Tulsa? Doha again? Prague?

Int, your arguments are getting more bizarre by the minute. :blink:

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Well, yeah. But we are a long way from knowing whether any South African city has a workable plan, or when they will be prepared to have one. Several posters here have already written in South Africa for 2024... to the point of arguing other cities shouldn't even bother trying. I say that until we actually see such a plan, nobody should be scared off.

I dunno. Cape Town 2004 got as many as 22 votes in the 3rd round. That seems like a workable plan to me. Of all the new/refurbished stadia for 2010, Durban was the only one to opt for a track-friendly stadium ready to seat 80,000...and set in a wide-open area just subtly screaming "Olympic Park, Olympic Park." That seems like far-sighted thinking to me.

Now that the timetable has been pushed back, maybe throwing in a Commonwealth Games on the schedule, isn't part of a master plan? Doing most everything in a well-thought-out, measured, spaced-out manner isn't a 'workable' plan? With people like Rafa from our board here, even though he isn't connected with the Durban city fathers officially; and maybe winning consultants like Mike Lee (ahem...London 2012, Qatar 2022) available for the right price, a seemingly driven city like Durban will submit amateurish plans?

Just attracting the IOC's vaunted Session to its very doorstep when other cities can't even invite them, wasn't long-range thinking?? :blink:

Apparently, Durban had hoped they could get out of the gate for 2020 now; but Pretoria pulled their leash back..with good reason. Doesn't mean it totally diminishes what I believe is some sort of overall "master plan"--both timing and brick-&-mortar-wise.

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1. $1 billion only for NINE stadia? What? They employed slave labor? Or not unless Costco-South Africa sells these stadia in a take-out package?

"Why does everything else not count"? You mean hotels, roads, hospitality facilities, press centers, etc., etc., are separate? Is that a Toronto-kind-of-school-of-Games accounting? :blink: Never heard of such a thing.

2. I don't know...has he asked Tulsa? Doha again? Prague?

Int, your arguments are getting more bizarre by the minute. :blink:

1) Those other things, are indirectly involved with the staging of the World Cup. It actually was only five new stadiums and 4 renovated.

2) He has told Toronto to bid again that was like before the 2016 race finished I believe, Tokyo a mere two years after Pyeonchang, Montreal! (after the 1976 debt),

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>> Apparently, Durban had hoped they could get out of the gate for 2020 now; but Pretoria pulled their leash back..with good reason.

Let's just say I am not convinced those good reasons will be gone in 4 years.

And for the record, I'm not a South Africa hater. I would love to see a games there. Especially if it means the IOC has reformed and stopped demaing expenive monuments be built. Especially if it means economic conditions have imporved in South Africa.

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And for the record, I'm not a South Africa hater. I would love to see a games there. Especially if it means the IOC has reformed and stopped demaing expenive monuments be built. Especially if it means economic conditions have imporved in South Africa.

I think the IOC gets a bad rap in that regard. They do NOT exactly demand white elephants.

1. A number of the very specific demands are set by the various federations.

2. It's the host cities that go carte blanche. And sometimes I do NOT blame them because if you are spending for facilities that should last a lifetime, why NOT go for the best? Except that in the case of an Olympics, some 20 bright, new faciliteis are unveiled all at once, so indeed, it seems like an extravagant spending spree. But then again, you (as a host city) knew that going into the race; and just looking at the ticket demand for 2012 from within the UK alone, the incredible demand for seats seems to justify larger venues vs. more modest ones.

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1) Those other things, are indirectly involved with the staging of the World Cup. It actually was only five new stadiums and 4 renovated.

2) He has told Toronto to bid again that was like before the 2016 race finished I believe, Tokyo a mere two years after Pyeonchang, Montreal! (after the 1976 debt),

1. Indirectly BUT they are necessary. You can't just erect a stadium and have no accommodations for visitors and aprticiaptns alike. :blink: That is why, if you've looked at bid requirements, they ask for a minimum number of hotel rooms, convention space and meeting halls, PRACTICE facilities, sponsor hospitality tents, etc., etc.. These are all PART and PARCEL of a World Cup or an Olympics. (Obviously, you are still getting to know this arcane world.)

Early assessments of (some of the) England 2018 venues were that there wasn't enough empty space around them to accommodate hospitatlity tents and other ancillary support tents (as you've seen in the recent photos of the London 2012 Beach Volleyball and Equestrian venues). They are PART of the WHOLE SCHMEAR!!

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I think the IOC gets a bad rap in that regard. They do NOT exactly demand white elephants.

1. A number of the very specific demands are set by the various federations.

2. It's the host cities that go carte blanche.

I assume you guys know what goes on behind closed doors better than I, but who really holds the power? If the IOC said it was willing to award the games to a city with an outdoor swim stadium, what would happen?

The IOC has a clear preference for new legacy structures, ideally in a central location, rather than temporary retrofits of existing buildings. The cities that bid know this. If cities really were give carte blanche *after* they were awarded the games, there is do doubt they would use very different and cheaper venues.

If we look at the winter games, the IOC is going to perfer cities willing to build new, very expensive sledding tracks over a bid that wants to reuse an existing track located elsewhere. Eliminate that preference, and you significantly lower costs.

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1. I assume you guys know what goes on behind closed doors better than I, but who really holds the power? If the IOC said it was willing to award the games to a city with an outdoor swim stadium, what would happen?

The IOC has a clear preference for new legacy structures, ideally in a central location, rather than temporary retrofits of existing buildings. The cities that bid know this. If cities really were give carte blanche *after* they were awarded the games, there is do doubt they would use very different and cheaper venues.

If we look at the winter games, the IOC is going to perfer cities willing to build new, very expensive sledding tracks over a bid that wants to reuse an existing track located elsewhere. Eliminate that preference, and you significantly lower costs.

1. Well, indeed it is the IOC. But what do you want the IOC to say? Swimming? No, 15,000 seats are too much. Make it only 4,500. Velodrome? Too fancy with all that Brazilian rosewood.

(Actually, when they are forced to, they settle for the bare-bones model. They got an open-air concrete velodrome for Los Angeles in 1984...and a collapsible plywood one in Atlanta 1996. Cyclists and spectators complained about the heat in LA (even though some events were run at night)...altho it was a dry heat vs. the humid heat in Atlanta. But see there, those 2 host cities did NOT go whole hog with their velodromes whereas look at the state-of-the-art one for London...and I also believe because the UK Cycling Association wants to use it to build up world-class cycling athletes. So the expense is justified and a rich country like the UK can afford it. But if a Kenya or a Gabon erected these type of facilities, then something is NOT right and/or certain parties are on the dole for ultra-extravagant venues in the wrong settings.)

Again, as I said, the ticket demands in Beijing and London have justified the use of extravagant facilities. And together with Rio, these 3 cities are in the 6.5 - 10 million population-range, so these facilities will see lots of post-Games use vs. smaller Athens of only 2.5 mil where a number of the facilities are just dust-gatherers. And you can bet your last Olympic pin that Sochi will have a lot of white elephants...but then again, it is the Russian gov't that is throwing all those rubles at those palaces. Who are outsiders to say 'no'? And if they think they can afford it; then that is their business between their leaders and their people. Well, the Sochi Olympic Stadium is already a designated venue for World Cup 2018...so that particular one gets one more usage.)

If you've bid and won; you are going to be in the global spotlight...you certainly wouldn't want to show a few jerry-rig built structures and some outhouses to the world's cameras. In these days of wide-flat screen TVs, it's pretty much travel promotions and PR prestige that you are buying with your "Olympic investments" more than any so-called sporting legacy. At least, that's how I see it.

As far as the bobsled/luge tracks, well, like some sports, it has to grow. I mean a 1970s track with 4 rather unexciting curves certainly would be passed over for a 2010 one with 12 hair-raising turns; that also makes for exciting television. Why do they build bigger, badder roller coasters?

If you bid, be prepared to spend and mortgage your first-borns of the next generations. But you also DON'T have to bid.

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