Booville
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Posts posted by Booville
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16 hours ago, FYI said:
I think many fail to realize that by spreading out too much, you create other hurdles with all the points you just mentioned. You can't spread out for the sake of spreading out just because one thinks that would make things more cost-effective somehow. You have to take into equation all of the other things you would need by doing that. I would also add that additional villages would be needed by spreading everything all over there place. And then when you add all that up, that is precisely when a too spread-out Games can get "scary" to even consider.
I think if you look at Milano-Cortina here we already have 4 clusters - this will likely be the way to go rather than building new facilities and a fifth if the sliding track becomes non-Italian.
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3 hours ago, stryker said:
Here's the problem I see with the above scenario. Rayo is a small club. They will want to maximize their revenue and they cannot do that with a rental agreement. West Ham is finding this out which is why there was chatter about the club possibly buying the London Stadium and removing the track. They aren't going to lease a stadium knowing they won't get 100% of gate receipts and have to give it up for athletics every so often.
PSG is having the same problem. The Qatari owners have offered to buy Stade de France for those reasons. If that were to occur, I'd almost guarantee the athletics would be removed.
Well here's the problem. West Ham paid LLDC for the conversion of London Stadium to football and a rent of initally £2.5m increasing now to £3.6m. They keep all their ticket receipts.
And as in 2018, Rayo have no choice if the council moves them to a new stadium by closing their existing ground and selling it.
the PSG issue is a different one as they want to buy Parc des Princes and significantly invest and expand but the city won't sell. PSG were never going to buy Stade de France because the French government have always made it clear that it would remain the national stadium and any private ownership would still require mandatory obligation to be met.
It should also be noted that even with the track at the London stadium, viewing angles are still superior to the Stade de France. If you consider a 16year time difference between developing the two I am sure that in 2028 technology will have advanced further
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13 hours ago, StefanMUC said:
Ah yes, Vallecano...there was something a long time ago...
So it was looked at 15years ago? And in 2018 the stadium had to be temporarily repainred for emergency repairs.
A more cleverly designed plan than London 2012 might be useful. West Ham moved from an owned stadium to one which is rented, whilst Rayo's landlords are already the Madrid community.
Do Rayo have the means to find and fund their own stadium?
If the landlord tells them that their stadium will be sold for housing development but will offer you a much bigger stadium, more modern with the possibility of bigger gate receipts and commercial opportunities potentially within the same geographical area do you say No?
Back in 2009 that Madrid team were still focusing on what would eventually become the Metropolitano stadium. That in its old state still had twice the seating capacity than what the current venue used has so a new Madrid stadium so be an upgrade opportunity in much the same way as the London Stadium has been over Crystal Palace
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16months.
That is how long Brisbane have to come up with a Plan B.
Based on London2012, cities normally would have 7years from games award to hosting so if Brisbane are hosting in summer 2032, an alternative solution needs to be in place ideally by summer 2025 unless the IOC plan to draw upon an emergency location if things drag beyond this point.
Would a costly fully temporary stadium be an alternative with limited legacy? Can a white elephant such as redeveloping the QEII stadium be avoid?
Would it first time bidder such as Jakarta step in?
Would a historic failed bidder like Istanbul, Madrid or Doha be willing to step up?
Or would the IOC go back to a recent host such as London/Paris/Tokyo to step in?
And how would this impact upon candidates for 2036?
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I do question Nice being in the bid, whether this is due to politics, and question whether closer to the conclusion of the dialogue phase this will become a purely Auvergne-RhoneAlps bid with Nice concluding building several new venues with no anchor tenants post games is just too costly.
Whilst distance is no longer as great a consideration of the IOC, a Lyon-Grenoble already has greater infrastructure in place and combined with proximity to La Plagne, Val d'Isere and Corcheval means a spectacular yet not quite so expensive games could easily be held.
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Where the Swiss have previously failed is in Canton referendum, where the canton woud be liable for the costs albeit supported by the national government. A 'Swiss games' encompassing a large number of existing venues and cantons would likely draw sufficient national support.
Alpine events at Wengen and Crans-Montana
Jumping in Engelberg
Sliding events at St Moritz
Indoor events in Zurich, Bern, Lausanne and Lugano
Even the massive PalaExpo in Geneva could be converted for speed skating.
And end to end, the distance is still shorter than Stockholm to Are, and include all linguistic groups.
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Seville might be considered for Track & Field as it is almost the same distance as Barcelona.
However since the sale of the Metropolitano to Athletico, the next big stadium owned who the Community of Madrid own is the Campo de Futbol de Vallecas.
An option would be a version of the London stadium but planned to be used by Rayo Vallecano, a La Liga team who lease the above, after the games. The Community/City can still use it for Grand Prix events, Spanish National Rugby team etc, and considering Rayo's current stadium continually needs work and was closed for emergency repairs as recently as 2018, a larger capacity stadium might be massively appealing even if an athletics stadium is not always optimal. The current stadium site could be sold for redevelopment to raise funds for the next stadium, which could start with a capacity of 70,000 reduced to 30-35,000 post games.
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IF
Salt Lake City or Vancouver don't come off for 2030 and Sapporo's bid flounders due to the corruption scandal, I can easily see a 1976 occuring where a strong contender is directly approached.
I would not be surprised if the IOC went cap in hand to Oslo-Lillehammer. 2014 was a long time ago and humility from the IOC potentially could be persuasive.
For Oslo-Lillehammer, with some slight changes to the infrastructure plan, all physical facilities exist. Unlike Munich, the other location with everything already there (the new SAP Arena would have been completed) but where there is political opposition, Norway would likely be more receptive. Another potential option would be Savoy (around Annecy) but this would likely require move investment, even if temporary facilities could be recycled from 2024.
Going cap in hand to an autocratic regime like Kazakstan would be another nail in the Winter Olympics coffin.
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Spain were always going to struggle to put together a bid.
At present it seems that if you do not have the two key pieces of infrastructure - hill & sliding run - you are always going to be up against it.
In Europe you are likely looking at the following
Lyon/Grenoble - to take advantage of the facilities in the French Alps and also squeak the arenas (1992)
Zurich/St Moritz - with the hill at Engleberg if they could only pass a referendum (1948)
Munich - probably the most ready candidate (1936)
Oslo/Lillehammer (1994)
Salzburg/Innsbruck (1976)
Everywhere else will struggle to host but if France, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, or Austria put together even an average bid they'd have to be considered amongst the favourites if not the favourites if only because none of these major Winter Sports nations have hosted for at least 28years (and 36years by 2030)
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You could argue that Austria could hold the game in its own right, Innsbruck-Salzburg and including famous resorts like Kitzbuhel in the bid
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Some interesting comments on this thread
Firstly the airport had over 16million passengers in 2019 and as a visitor on business, I have never experienced any delays. There were already proposals for a new Terminal3. The missing infrastructure is connections to the city, but a metro expansion would make a huge difference. As one of the Top25 most visited cities in the world, I imagine that Budapest could handle an influx of visitors.
As for venues, the city is hosting the World Athletics Championship in 2023 with a new 40,000 seater .. this is the same capacity as being touted for other bidders, potentially could be upscaled and the new Ferecs Puskas stadiums is available for ceremonies and football etc. You've got FINA hosting events in the city with the new Danube Arena, a new very large arena for Handball championships and and the Laszlo Papp, another larger indoor arena. Sailing events could be even held on the 'Hungarian Sea', Lake Balaton
Whilst is seems bizarre the IOC have anounced Brisbane as the 'preferred contender', you wonder if this could simply be people betting on the Hare and ignoring the Tortoise.
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There were some discussion about a joint bid in 2017 building on the Olympic Agenda 2020 allowing co-hosting. It seems unlikely that the Poles would be in favour as the referedum for Krakow 2022 rejected the proposal by almost 70%, though less than 36% voted. The bid was to include Jasna in Slovakia for the Alpine events, though Zakopane 2006 was completely within Poland.
If this is a non-starter for the Poles, what about the Czechs? They've already dipped their toes in the water with Prague 2016. So might it be possible to look at the other games.
So how about a Prague 2030/2034
The first question would be the outdoor bits.
They have the ski jumping hills - Certak at a distance of 135km towards Poland has all the hills required. The mountain is a little more problematic. Rokytnice nad Jizerou has a vertial of 630m-1315m so about 125m short but the town is actually at 520m and the peak at 1344m so the 800m vertical is achieved. Alternative Cerna Hora - Janske Lazne is listed at 650m-1260m but again the lifts go up to 1603m. It won't be the first time an Olympic course was extended beyond its normal vertical (Calgary 1988 for one). Like all games, a bobsleigh run would be required but the Altenberg track is less than 120km away just across the border in Germany
As the indoor areas, there are two large areas in Prague (02 Arena and the Tipsport Arena) and medium sized arenas in Liberec and Hradec Kralove.
And finally we get to the Great Strahov Stadium, largest in the world, that was proposed as the Olympic village in 2016, or a huge leisure world. There is more than enough space for a Richmond Oval type facility, plus village (which could then be turned into residences)
There are multiple sources of potential corporate sponsorship for a 'Czechia' games and the ability to host spectators with Prague being the 5th most visited city in Europe.
A capital city as host is maybe what the IOC would dream of.
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There has been some romantic suggestions that one day Sarajevo could host the Winter Olympics again. With the idea about maybe bring back the games to the former Yugoslav countries, how about possibly hosting the games in Slovenia with Ljubljana as the anchor?
Ljubljana is the capital city so of course has a number of facilities beyond its size with a population just under 300,000 people with the second city Maribor 132km away and the country's third city Celje, in between.
The natural geography of Slovenia makes itself suitable for winter sports with Kranjska Gora and the Maribor Pohorje Ski Resorts both hosting FIS events amd Planica being the largest ski jumping facility - there is also hills at Kranj, just north of Ljubjana.
In terms of indoor facilities, there is Arena Stozice arena which can accommodate 10,500 people, the Tivoli Hall complex with a large hall for 6,000 and a smaller hall for 4,500. There are also venues in Celje (5,000) and in Maribor (3,000) but the later could be replaced with a larger hall. There is possibilty of a Richmond Oval type plan that could work in Maribor. The sliding track is always an issue, but one could be built to replace the Sarajevo slide which is beyong economic repair. As for ceremonies, the historic Bezigrad stadium could be renovated and expanded to become a national stadium.
Slovenia certainly has the topography, and the possibilities, but economically will remain a remote possibility. It could however work.
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2 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:
It's less about matching up against Sapporo and more about better timing for the USOPC (not to mention 2034 will be the first Olympics of the new TV contracts, so that could be better for the IOC as well). That said.. let's see what the appetite is for a Winter Olympics in Japan after what it's going to cost them for
20202021. Either way, hard to envision the next Winter Olympics in North American anywhere other than Salt Lake. Is Vancouver really in a rush to get themselves another Olympics so soon?That's everyone's economy at this point. At some point, Vancouver will likely put up another bid. Don't see that being so soon as 2030
The argument for Vancouver would be like this - IMO
1. Most of the facilities used previously that would be reused again would in 2030 need only minor upgrades - add another 12-30 years and we are talking major upgrades or new builds
2. Money has already been set aside for some of the community centres that could be used - they are likely to be built whether a bid happened or not, but a Games could allow for better facilities that might otherwise be built (hence public support?)
3. The big social issue in Vancouver is affordable housing/social housing - building a village for 3000+ athletes/coaches etc - convertible after the games would be a step towards alleviating this
4. and of course, the cost of hosting the games, like for Salt Lake City, will be much reduced because some of the more expensive facilities are already in place
As a comparison and correct me if there are new plans I don't know of
Ceremonies: Vancouver - BC Place (updated since 2010) Ceremonies 54,500 SLC - Rice Eccles 45,807
Hockey 1: Vancouver - GM Place 18,630 SLC - Maverick Center 10,100
Hockey 2: Vancouver - UBC Arena 7,200 (currently 5,000?) so slight upgrade needed SLC - Peaks Area 8,400 (currently 2,300) (i)
Figure: Vancouver - Pacific Coliseum 14,239 (upgrade required) SLC - Vivint Smart Arena 17,500
Curling: Vancouver - Hillcrest Centre 6,000 (a) SLC - Ice Sheet at Ogden 2,000 (ii)
Speed: Vancouver - Richmond Oval 8,000 (b) SLC - Olympic Oval 6,500 (currently 3,000) (iii)
From a pure infrastructure perspective both candidates would need to upgrade some of their facilities. For Vancouver, a couple of main arenas need some upgrade but the main issues would be (a) which could be replaced by a new arena in Newton or the existing Langley Events Centre (5,276) whilst (b) could be replaced by the proposed Surrey Community Centre. For SLC, (i) would need a very large capacity increase whilst (ii) and (iii) would require significant capacity increases. All other venues appear in good working order
If Vancouver enter v SLC, from a technical perspective it is really 50-50
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4 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:
Canada is still probably licking their wounds from how the Calgary 2026 bid fell apart. Not a smart idea going up against Salt Lake and a United State bid. Somewhere down the line, Vancouver will probably be a good bet for another Olympics in Canada. But not 2030. And using St. Mortiz 1948 isn't a great example. That was the first post-WW2 Olympics and it was awarded to Switzerland on the basis of them being a neutral country through the war.
and the 1948 Summer Olympics went to London which was not exactly a neutral country in WW2
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13 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:
Canada is still probably licking their wounds from how the Calgary 2026 bid fell apart. Not a smart idea going up against Salt Lake and a United State bid. Somewhere down the line, Vancouver will probably be a good bet for another Olympics in Canada. But not 2030. And using St. Mortiz 1948 isn't a great example. That was the first post-WW2 Olympics and it was awarded to Switzerland on the basis of them being a neutral country through the war.
A United States bid where they are holding the Summer Games two years earlier ... apparently SLC don't think they match up against the likes of Sapporo
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/salt-lake-city-eyes-2034-olympics-after-sapporo-bid-for-2030
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How about Vancouver 2030?
Unlike Calgary, there appears to be a little more support in BC, with maybe 60% in favour of making a bid - 2010 did make money despite what people think with the ex-VANOC CEO pushing the idea ... and a new Olympic village could assist in dealing with the No1 issue of housing affordability and homelessness.
BC Place has been modernised into a world class venue since 2010 and a number of the venues such as GM Place (Ice Hockey1), the Pacific Coliseum (Figure Skating) and the Thunderbird Sports Centre (Hockey2) could be easily used again. Whilst the use of the Hillcrest Cenre and the Richmond Skating Oval would be far more problematic due to the success of their post 2010 legacy, a new speeding skating type venue in Surrey and a curling arena in Newton would create a future 'legacy; - this would spread out the venues a little more than in 2010 but in the scale of some bids this would be minimal in terms of distances. Of course, all outdoor events would be held in Whistler.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-2030-olympics-bid-plan-legacies-ideas
It will only be 20years since the previous Vancouver games but St Moritz held in 1928/1948
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It is such a disappointment that we don't look like seeing Munich 2030.
An international city with direct international connections to five continents, with all the venues already in place bar an extra coat of paint and meeting the minimum capacity requirements without the need to add a single seat
Ceremonies - Olympic Stadium
Bobsleigh/Luge - Schonau am Kongisee
Speed Skating - Max Aider Arena, Inzell
Cross Country/Biathalon - Ruhpolding
Skiing/Ski Jumping - Garmisch Partenkirchen
Figure Skating - Olympiahalle
Ice Hockey Main - SAP Arena
Ice Hockey Second & Curling - two from Olympia Eishalle, Audi Dome, or further afield Curt Frenzel Stadion (Augsburg) Saturn Arena (Ingolstadt), Eisstadion am Gutenbergweg (Landshut) or Olympia-Eissport-Zentrum (Garmsich) the last 4 either DEL or DEL2 arenas all within about 90kms of downtown Munich.
Bavarian sponsorshop possibilities could include Siemens AG, BMW, MAN AG, Audi, Allianz, Munich Re etc.
SLC would not be a slam dunk anymore
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Do members of the forum actually think this is an option that the IOC might seriously considered if officially put forward?
13 cities with an approximate distances of a maximum 160km between the furthest edges, excluding Kiel.
There are 16 existing stadiums of 30,000 seats, 24 large sports halls so 80%+ venues are already in place.
The one missing component is the ever problematic Olympic Stadium - a potential remedy will be 1FC Koln. The Rhein Energy Stadium with a capacity of 50,000 seats is deemed too small. They want to expand to 75,000 seats. There are a number of issues with the expansion of the current site that would make it economically unviable to do so under an official assessment. The city which rents the stadium actually makes a loss due to the current capacity. The club have investigated the possibility of a private stadium near the A1 which provides great access.
The first argument against will be that fans will not accept an athletics stadium due to the poor viewing angles but in Europe it has already been demonstrated that an athletics stadium always planned to be converted to football (Etihad, Manchester) or one will moving seats (Stade de France) have worked whilst the Stade Pierre-Mauroy was designed for multiple configurations.
If 1.FC Koln and the city can come to an agreement alongside the bid committee to build a main site stadium, with the option of multiple configurations and maybe a rectractable roof and you have a happy football team (new stadium, increased revenues, limited building costs), a happy city with a multi use stadium which can bring in additional revenues to help offset any losses if the yo-yo football club continue to up and down and a solution to the Olympic Stadium issue.
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On 1/26/2020 at 7:32 AM, AustralianFan said:
Point taken.
I should rephrase:
The IOC is not going to entertain consecutive Winter and Summer Games from the same country 2 years apart.
The Spanish Olympic Committee need to decide which one they are going to focus on.
It does not seem to stop people saying SLC 2030 is the favourite having just had LA 2028
I'm not sure the IOC can be that picky
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I think Madrid might be a case of 5th time lucky .... if there is the money available there are definitely the venues ... and even the issue of the athletics stadium might be resolved by a temporary expansion of Vallehermoso stadium from 12,000 to 60,000 with temporary seating rather than host the athletics in Barcelona or Sevilla
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On 9/23/2019 at 3:45 AM, Quaker2001 said:
When Nagano won the 1998 Olympics, Salt Lake was 2nd in the voting behind them and only lost by a handful of votes. All it would have taken was 3 voters to flip and Salt Lake would have hosted less than 2 years after Atlanta. So it almost happened once. No reason to think it couldn't happen again.
I don't think it's over-confidence to say 2030 is SLC's to lose. If they bid, there's a pretty good chance they'd win. Who would beat them? The IOC isn't in a position to be romantic. If they were, they would have taken a chance on Stockholm.
SLC versus Lillehammer is no contest. Lillehammer hosted an Olympics without women's hockey, without curling, and without freestyle skiing or snowboarding. SLC in 2002 had all of those things. So if it's those 2 against each other, SLC will likely win that contest easily.
and of course in 1998, SLC almost went out in R1 and had to win a run off with Aosta
After that, the assistance of a few brown envelopes aided the closeness with Nagano
They learnt their lesson in 2002 ... bigger brown envelopes from the start
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On 9/23/2019 at 3:45 AM, Quaker2001 said:
When Nagano won the 1998 Olympics, Salt Lake was 2nd in the voting behind them and only lost by a handful of votes. All it would have taken was 3 voters to flip and Salt Lake would have hosted less than 2 years after Atlanta. So it almost happened once. No reason to think it couldn't happen again.
I don't think it's over-confidence to say 2030 is SLC's to lose. If they bid, there's a pretty good chance they'd win. Who would beat them? The IOC isn't in a position to be romantic. If they were, they would have taken a chance on Stockholm.
SLC versus Lillehammer is no contest. Lillehammer hosted an Olympics without women's hockey, without curling, and without freestyle skiing or snowboarding. SLC in 2002 had all of those things. So if it's those 2 against each other, SLC will likely win that contest easily.
For Lillehammer to add those additional sports would be minimal ... Kanthaugen hosted freestyle skiing and half-pipe, and Hafjell the slopestyle in 2016, the curling already has a purpose built arena and there is likely to be enough capacity to host additional women's hockey games
A games encompassing the true spirit of the games vs a games forever tainted by bribery ... clearly an easy call
Madrid 2036
in 2036 Olympic Games Bids
Posted
You will find that in many European countries outside of the big clubs, stadiums are not owned by the club.
http://stadiumdb.com/news/2024/02/spain_fuss_in_madrid_will_rayo_vallecano_leave_their_stadium