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What Will Happen In England's Football ?


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The idea of restricting the number of foreigners is a knee jerk reaction and one I'd hate to see. We've had foreigners in the PL for years and have managed to qualify for 5 sucessive tournaments; the best run ever for England. What if we do that and England don't qualify for the next two tournaments? We'll have ruined one of the best leagues in the world and have nothing to show for it. The cream always rises to the top and the best English players will get their chance but surely it's better for them to get that chance through merit rather than through their manager being forced to play them.

Some people bang on and on about England players no showing passion but this argument is a complete red herring for me. Our players show plenty of passion (too much sometimes) but are not good enough at playing International football which is more about tactical awareness and skill than speed and passion (which is what you find in the PL.) They show passion but don't know what to do with it half the time and it has the effect of making them look like a bunch of headless chickens.

What we need to do and this has shown recently, is make sure young players are skillful on the ball and tactically aware like young players are on the continent. Our players aren't skillful enough and stopping skillful foreigners playing in our top leaugue isn't going to help that situation; in fact it will probably hinder it. How many really intelligent footballers do we have now playing for England? Not enough imho. Rooney, despite his shortcomings, is one of the few we have at the moment and unfortunately he's injured most of the time.

As for the short term, Steve McLaren must go. His job was to get England through and he hasn't. Who will replace him I don't know. Martin Jol? :P

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They must now concede 2018 to the USA if they have any pride left.

Don't know about that.The USA didn't qualify for Euro 2008 either! :lol:

As for the short term, Steve McLaren must go. His job was to get England through and he hasn't. Who will replace him I don't know. Martin Jol? :P

McLaren will definitely be gone either after the FA board meeting tomorrow or shortly thereafter.Maybe Brian Barwick should consider his postion also as McLaren was his choice for England manager.Is Terry Venables still a possibility to take over? Jose Mourinho has also been mentioned if the FA wants to go down the foreign route again!

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FA tell England boss McClaren: You're gone

tribalfootball.com - November 21, 2007

England manager Steve McClaren has been SACKED, according to reports today.

The Sun says senior FA board members informed McClaren half an hour after last night's final whistle that he was out.

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The doomed England boss will receive a £2.5million golden handshake despite failing to get England to the 2008 Euro finals.

FA chief executive Brian Barwick, his trusted aid Simon Johnson, FA chairman Geoff Thompson and chairman of the international committee Noel White met at 10.30 last night and decided to call an FA board meeting for 8.30am this morning.

McClaren had been booked on the plane to South Africa tomorrow for Sunday's World Cup draw in Durban but his seat will be cancelled.

He had always said he wanted to be judged after the 12 Euro qualifiers but last night's Wembley horror show signalled just how low England had sunk under his leadership.

source : http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=66167

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I know what I'd like to see and I also know what I fear will happen.

I'd like to see fundamental reform, not just of the FA but of English football as a whole. This appointment by committee nonsense has to stop NOW and I am heartened to see that they're at least talking about giving Brian Barwick sole control of recruting the next manager.

I completely agree with Rob's view about coaching of young players in this country. It is improving, but we still have a long way to go and we must accelerate that process.

Where I disagree is on the issue of foreign players. I'm not even sure why we're even involving that issue in the discussion seeing as our hands are tied by the EU, but it is, nonetheless, important. Yes, there is a place for foreign players of the highest quality. There always has been and there always will be. But, I don't think there can be any doubt whatsoever that English players are being held back by the sheer numbers of overseas players in the Premier League.

Look at last night. We were relying on three strikers who are nowhere near being regular starters in their club sides. That cannot be right. UEFA have started the ball rolling on home-grown talent, to their credit, and the FA must take that on. If they don't, failure like this will continue.

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Look at last night. We were relying on three strikers who are nowhere near being regular starters in their club sides.

Would they be any better for England against disciplined teams like Croatia if they were certain of their places at club level and if they were playing against second rate English defenders every week rather than defences made up of the best talent in the world?

Lowering the quality in the PL isn't going to help our international side. We'd have quantity, but still wouldn't have the quality needed.

In fact, the only way that would work was if English players were taught from a young age how to play football like they do on the continent - and so we get back to the crux of the issue; lack of skills amongst our youngsters. Without this, limiting the number of foreigners will just have the effect of sub-standard English players coming in and playing sub-standard football; hoofing the ball forward, hit and hope etc. Try putting those sorts of players in the England team and see what happens!

Where there should be a limit on the number of foreigners is in our clubs' academies and I think an agreement between clubs, with the help of the FA should be reached to this effect because this is a real problem. Clubs, including my own, who buy very young foreigners and put them through their academies are stopping the young English players getting the skills training they so desperately need. We've got some great academies in England now, but half of them are full of non-English players which is ridiculous! Stop this situation and we'll get more skillful English players who PL managers will be happy to play in their first team. In other words, rather than lowering the standards of our top league to accomodate our young players, we have to raise the standards of our young players so they don't look out of place in our top league!

So, give young English players all the training possible and focus on getting them to the skill level required by getting our clubs and their academies to focus on them rather than young foreigners. But when they've "graduated" and are playing for top clubs, you can't mollycoddle them any more by forcing managers to play them. That wouldn't be good for England or them.

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Nobody is suggesting that by lowering the numbers of foreign players, you would improve the quality of football, though I notice plenty are suggesting the reverse may be true. But what I don't think anyone can argue about is the fact that, if you play in big games regularly, then you are better equipped to handle what comes with them and many of those players on that field last night were not sufficiently equipped, because they do not have the opportunities to play on the big occasions.

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No you can't argue with that but to be honest, I don't think that is a big factor in our failure and I think what we'd be sacrificing by limiting foreigners in our league would be greater than any return we'd get from such a move.

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If we really care about the success of the England national team, then it is something that simply has to be done. Whether you believe it was a major factor or not is immaterial. If players play in more big games for their clubs, the better prepared they will be to play in the big games for their country.

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But as I've said, they'll get more games but will end up playing a lower standard of football than they would if they had to compete for their places against the best in the world. That's the sacrifice you'll be making and that won't be good for England imho.

The truth is, we're not producing players good enough either for the top teams in the Premiership or the England team (beyond, it seems, our first XI who if they were fully fit would have got us through I think). Forcing the Premiership teams to play sub-standard players won't change this fact. Producing better youngsters will. That's the correct and only viable long-term solution in my opinion.

Another thing you often hear is that foreigners are cheaper than English players so some clubs will go for them instead of English players and that it follows that this is harming our national side.

But the types of clubs that go for foreigners because they are cheap are not the types of clubs we want our top English players playing for anyway. The types of clubs we do want our top English players playing for (i.e. those in the CL) don't worry so much about money, buy foreigners because they are good not because they are cheap, and have always bought English players if they are good enough; £18m for Rio Ferdinand, £11m for Frank Lampard, £27m for Wayne Rooney, £17m for Owen Hargreaves.

Get more players up to the standard of our top guys and these clubs (and the top clubs in Europe: have you noticed how few English players play abroad?) will buy them. Beyond our first XI, the talent pool isn't there and that's not because of foreigners, it's a problem nearer to home.

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Heres what Paddypower says

M O’Neill 15 - 8

F Rijkaard 40 - 1

S Bilic 66 - 1

F Capello 7 - 2

P Jewell 40 - 1

M Jol 66 - 1

J Mourinho 6 - 1

O Hitzfeld 40 - 1

P Ince 66 - 1

A Shearer 12 - 1

Mark Hughes 40 - 1

S Bruce 66 - 1

H Redknapp 14 - 1

A Curbishley 40 - 1

G Hoddle 80 - 1

P Scolari 14 - 1

Alex Ferguson 50 - 1

Gareth Southgate 100 - 1

M Lippi 20 - 1

SG Eriksson 50 - 1

Dennis Wise 100 - 1

G Hiddink 22 - 1

G Houllier 50 - 1

K Keegan 100 - 1

Stuart Pearce 25 - 1

T Venables 50 - 1

Clive Woodward 200 - 1

S Coppell 28 - 1

M Van Basten 50 - 1

David Beckham 250 - 1

J Klinsmann 28 - 1

R Hodgson 50 - 1

Sir Bobby Robson 250 - 1

S Allardyce 33 - 1

R Benitez 50 - 1

Steve Staunton 1000 - 1

A Wenger 33 - 1

T Adams 66 - 1

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But as I've said, they'll get more games but will end up playing a lower standard of football than they would if they had to compete for their places against the best in the world. That's the sacrifice you'll be making and that won't be good for England imho.

The truth is, we're not producing players good enough either for the top teams in the Premiership or the England team (beyond, it seems, our first XI who if they were fully fit would have got us through I think). Forcing the Premiership teams to play sub-standard players won't change this fact. Producing better youngsters will. That's the correct and only viable long-term solution in my opinion.

Another thing you often hear is that foreigners are cheaper than English players so some clubs will go for them instead of English players and that it follows that this is harming our national side.

But the types of clubs that go for foreigners because they are cheap are not the types of clubs we want our top English players playing for anyway. The types of clubs we do want our top English players playing for (i.e. those in the CL) don't worry so much about money, buy foreigners because they are good not because they are cheap, and have always bought English players if they are good enough; £18m for Rio Ferdinand, £11m for Frank Lampard, £27m for Wayne Rooney, £17m for Owen Hargreaves.

Get more players up to the standard of our top guys and these clubs (and the top clubs in Europe: have you noticed how few English players play abroad?) will buy them. Beyond our first XI, the talent pool isn't there and that's not because of foreigners, it's a problem nearer to home.

But are they sub-standard? That is the question. Are players like Theo Walcott, David Bentley, Stuart Taylor, etc, etc, so far below the ability levels of their foreign counterparts? I'm not totally convinced that they are. And yet how few chances have they had at that particular London club that you like so much?

I'm not arguing with you about the need to bring through more and better young players. But, we cannot just be talking about technical ability. So much of professional sport is in the mind rather than the body and young English players have to be given opportunities, by rule if necessary. We can't go on like this.

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But are they sub-standard? That is the question. Are players like Theo Walcott, David Bentley, Stuart Taylor, etc, etc, so far below the ability levels of their foreign counterparts?

Hmmm. That etc, etc, says a lot you know! If you're going to limit the number of foreigners you'll have to give a much longer list than that and I'm not convinced one exists. These bench fillers are the minority: most players of a high enough standard for England are already playing first team football, you have a small number that are good enough but aren't playing first team football at the moment (the Walcotts, Bents and Defoes) BUT the vast majority of English players are and never will be good enough for our national side.

Are you really suggesting we put such a radical measure in place so that the players in the middle group - which I believe consists of very few individuals - can get a game?

The other thing is we've had bad England teams in the past when there were no foreigners in the top league; it's not like this is the first time England have failed to qualify for something. I hope I'm wrong but if a scheme like this goes ahead, I wouldn't predict a substantial improvement in our national side (if any) and our top league would become inferior to every other top league in Europe. Whilst I know it's far from perfect, I don't want to ruin what's good about the Premier League in an experiment which has never been tried anywhere else in the world and one which we aren't certain will bear any fruit.

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You've hit the nail on the head. Some seem to be more bothered about the Premier League than the England team. Sod the Premier League. There are too many divided loyalties. What should matter to all of us is England doing well at club AND international level.

Why have we enjoyed success in rugby and cricket over the last few years? It is accepted in those sports, by and large, that the success of the England team benefits the sport as a whole. Football has yet to recognise it. Maybe it hasn't needed to recognise it until now. But be in no doubt that if this level of international mediocrity continues, English football as a whole will suffer.

It's not just about the players now, but about the youngsters coming through. Players like Scott Sinclair who are going out on loan to Championship clubs rather than getting a go in the first team. If you introduce some sort of quota, then you force clubs to give players like him a go.

I accept that the days of the three or four foreigner rule have gone and won't ever return. But is it really so bad to have a rule that requires a minimum of, initially, five English players in a matchday squad?

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No you can't argue with that but to be honest, I don't think that is a big factor in our failure and I think what we'd be sacrificing by limiting foreigners in our league would be greater than any return we'd get from such a move.

You are saying that cos of the finacial return to England. The impact of foreing players on the English teams can not be overemphasized. When England does that it will be a total failure for the English soccer all together. I wouldn't even want to watch their matches any more cos my favourite players are among the foreign players.

Nevertheless, the different skills brought by the foreign players will be taken away from their various clubs.

England should think twice before embarking on such disheartening change.

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I find failing to qualify for major championships much more disheartening, thank you very much.

Do you know why? Maybe they are ignoring the right players.

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You've hit the nail on the head. Some seem to be more bothered about the Premier League than the England team. Sod the Premier League. There are too many divided loyalties. What should matter to all of us is England doing well at club AND international level.

I'm bothered about both actually. I would be very bothered if the experiment you're advocating took place, scarred the Premier League and had no effect on our national side. I know the Premier League is often painted as a great monolithic monster that's sucking all the good out of football, but there are some bloody good things about it which I wouldn't want to see dissapear. This isn't about "favouring" the Premier League over our national team; it's about wanting the best for both. And as I've said, I'm yet to be convinced limiting foreigners (or having a minimum quota of English players) will be good for our national team. I am convinced, however, that it wouldn't be good for the Premier League.

Why have we enjoyed success in rugby and cricket over the last few years? It is accepted in those sports, by and large, that the success of the England team benefits the sport as a whole. Football has yet to recognise it. Maybe it hasn't needed to recognise it until now. But be in no doubt that if this level of international mediocrity continues, English football as a whole will suffer.

I agree. A good national team can only help a sport. But I'm not convinced that limiting foreigners will create this.

It's not just about the players now, but about the youngsters coming through. Players like Scott Sinclair who are going out on loan to Championship clubs rather than getting a go in the first team. If you introduce some sort of quota, then you force clubs to give players like him a go.

The very best youngsters get their chances; and these are the players we want playing for us. Things haven't changed that much since most of our current first XI were yongsters. They managed to fight their way through the "foreign invasion" to become importatnt first team starters for their clubs and they did so on merit, not because their manager was forced to play them.

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The Premier League was supposed to make the England team better. That's what its backers said it would do. Well it hasn't. Fundamental reform is needed, but I fear that the Premier League has become so powerful that we won't get the reform that is needed.

You say we only want the very best young players. Does that then mean there is no place for the late developer? Does that mean there is no place for a Stuart Pearce or an Ian Wright? We don't know how good our players are until they are given a chance. I'm fully aware that, as a supporter of a lower league team, that the Premier League isn't exactly my flavour of the month. But we should all be pulling in the same direction for the good of the whole of our game. But we're not. Those at the top only seem to be bothered about themselves to the expense of everyone else. The Premier League, in its current form, is destroying English football. Of that there is no doubt.

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The Premier League was supposed to make the England team better. That's what its backers said it would do. Well it hasn't. Fundamental reform is needed, but I fear that the Premier League has become so powerful that we won't get the reform that is needed.

What a strange promise to make!

I don't think that was ever going to be true just as I don't believe the reverse is true. Just because they said that and it hasn't happened it doesn't automatically mean the problem lies with the Premier League. The logic behind that claim is flawed:

If a person promised it wouldn't rain tomorrow because they had a magic cat you wouldn't kill the cat in the hope it wouldn't rain in the future if their claim turned out to be false. You'd instead realise their claim was spurious. Sorry, I just made that up but I hope you get my jist.

I just don't believe the link between the Premier League and England's failure is that strong. I'm therefore not sure reforming it in the way you're suggesting will make much difference to the England team.

You say we only want the very best young players. Does that then mean there is no place for the late developer? Does that mean there is no place for a Stuart Pearce or an Ian Wright?

How long exactly are Premier League clubs supposed to persist with an English player crossing their fingers that they may become the next Ian Wright when the likelyhood is they'll probably be the next Titus Bramble?

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Heres what Paddypower says

M O’Neill 15 - 8

F Rijkaard 40 - 1

S Bilic 66 - 1

F Capello 7 - 2

P Jewell 40 - 1

M Jol 66 - 1

J Mourinho 6 - 1

O Hitzfeld 40 - 1

P Ince 66 - 1

A Shearer 12 - 1

Mark Hughes 40 - 1

S Bruce 66 - 1

H Redknapp 14 - 1

A Curbishley 40 - 1

G Hoddle 80 - 1

P Scolari 14 - 1

Alex Ferguson 50 - 1

Gareth Southgate 100 - 1

M Lippi 20 - 1

SG Eriksson 50 - 1

Dennis Wise 100 - 1

G Hiddink 22 - 1

G Houllier 50 - 1

K Keegan 100 - 1

Stuart Pearce 25 - 1

T Venables 50 - 1

Clive Woodward 200 - 1

S Coppell 28 - 1

M Van Basten 50 - 1

David Beckham 250 - 1

J Klinsmann 28 - 1

R Hodgson 50 - 1

Sir Bobby Robson 250 - 1

S Allardyce 33 - 1

R Benitez 50 - 1

Steve Staunton 1000 - 1

A Wenger 33 - 1

T Adams 66 - 1

6-1 for Mourinho seems like a very good price.

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