Cauldron Lighting

[Olympian2004]

Indeed, they can do that.

I also had another idea - they could reserve an area on one of the top stands for the device to be just placed there, in perfect sight for every spectator - but then I remembered the much-needed element of surprise. Unless they could hide it very well (unlikely).

I start to believe that your (also mine) idea is the one with the best chances.

I really don't think so. If the cauldron "bursts" from the stands through the roof, the view on it will always be obstructed. And if the cauldron stays below the roof, it will look somehow cowering and thus not very impressive. I think the Chinese will give us a big "wow effect" -- it'll be a bombastic ceremony with an enormous amount of performers, so they can't do bland with the cauldron or do something which looks somehow awkward. And to me, it looks awkward if the cauldron had to burst through the roof and stay outside the stadium, with its foot still inside.

What about your flamethrower concept of Athens 2004, Baron? Someone already mentioned the traditional Chinese dragon, so one could perfectly combine it with that technique.

[Filipe_Golias]

So what's your idea? How can they do it so that it looks 1) breathtaking and 2) is seen by everyone inside the stadium?

[Olympian2004]

One possibility (as I already said) is a cauldron dish lit in the center of the field, surrounded by the athletes, then soaring by wires to the top of a tower outside the stadium.

Or an alternative of this scenario: It could be some mechanical figure involved, as in Nanjing in 2005. What about a dragon whose flame is lit by Yao Ming and then "flying" up to the cauldron tower outside the stadium?

[NY20??]

I suppose camera angles are considered when designing and planning the lighting(s). Athens' cauldron , I think, would not have looked nearly as aesthetically pleasing if not viewed from behind, rising above, with the flame against the backdrop of all the athletes and camera flashes below.

[baron-pierreIV]

1. One possibility (as I already said) is a cauldron dish lit in the center of the field, surrounded by the athletes, then soaring by wires to the top of a tower outside the stadium.

2. Or an alternative of this scenario: It could be some mechanical figure involved, as in Nanjing in 2005.

3. What about a dragon whose flame is lit by Yao Ming and then "flying" up to the cauldron tower outside the stadium?

1. It could be; but that technique is... so Albertville, Atlanta and lately, Torino. I'm sure the BOCOG honchos want something more original and breathtaking -- notwithstanding the limitations of the stadium. Besides, HOW do they set that up from the middle of the field -- WITHOUT giving away the surprise -- when the infield needs to be unobstructed for the Artistic part of the Ceremony? I mean, it's something that has to be set up before the show and stay ready until its use. And the cauldron must probably be 400 - 500 feet tall (judging from the roof) so that there will be a straight line from the center of the field to the tip of the Tower. And Beijing is trying to stage environmentally-responsible Games?

2. The 'mechanical figure' would probably be nixed by the IOC. It would want to retain that final 'human touch' as much as possible. So, what will it read in the annals of the Final Torchbearer or Who Lit the Cauldron? Beijing 2008 - Robot? I don't think that'll fly.

3. Dragon? That's possible. But too Mushu (the Eddie Murphy dragon character in MULAN). I think any other gadget with fire will be too risky. What if it doesn't light up right? Then the whole scenario flops. And didn't Birch just do something similar in the Torino Closing with the Pagani fire-breathing Dragon Harp?

It really can't be anything TOO, TOO elaborate because it'll come late in the proceedings of the evening; and unlike Stadium Australia, the Birds Nest was designed as an entity WITHOUT input as to where a visible cauldron might go.

Edited September 16, 2007 by baron-pierreIV

[Kenadian]

I expect something connected to the rim of the roof.

[seamus21514]

I think something that might work is to have a Sydney esque thing with the ramp, but instead it goes to a tower outside the stadium, but it would allow everybody in the stadium to see it lit or something. I think they will incorporate Fire (obviously) Water, Earth (stone) and some way wind (glass?) together to get some elemental thing going.

[zainhasan15]

I expect something connected to the rim of the roof.

Yes, I am execting the same situation, They can beautifully use roof's rim for placement of cauldron.

[Olympian2004]

1. It could be; but that technique is... so Albertville, Atlanta and lately, Torino. I'm sure the BOCOG honchos want something more original and breathtaking -- notwithstanding the limitations of the stadium. Besides, HOW do they set that up from the middle of the field -- WITHOUT giving away the surprise -- when the infield needs to be unobstructed for the Artistic part of the Ceremony?

Did you forget that there's a hole in the center of the field?

And the cauldron must probably be 400 - 500 feet tall (judging from the roof) so that there will be a straight line from the center of the field to the tip of the Tower. And Beijing is trying to stage environmentally-responsible Games?

Who says that the cauldron has to burn more gas just because it's taller? And the environmental responsibility didn't mean for Beijing to construct small, modest venues. In fact, their venues are rather bombastic and eye-catching. And so could be the cauldron.

2. The 'mechanical figure' would probably be nixed by the IOC.

I actually meant the dragon as the mechanical figure. So I don't know why you split up my paragraph in two parts.

It would want to retain that final 'human touch' as much as possible. So, what will it read in the annals of the Final Torchbearer or Who Lit the Cauldron? Beijing 2008 - Robot? I don't think that'll fly.

Oh, come on! Does it read in the annals of Torino 2006 that actually, Stefania Belmondo had nothing to do with the lighting of the cauldron and that the real "final torchbearer" was a firework respectively the automatic igniter on the cauldron top? Since the IOC had no problem with the cauldron lit by something else than the original Olympic Flame, it would certainly have no problem with a mechanical figure. And couldn't Yao Ming (or whoever the final torchbearer will be) even ride on the dragon?

3. Dragon? That's possible. But too Mushu (the Eddie Murphy dragon character in MULAN). I think any other gadget with fire will be too risky. What if it doesn't light up right? Then the whole scenario flops. And didn't Birch just do something similar in the Torino Closing with the Pagani fire-breathing Dragon Harp?

Birch also did a Olympic marching band -- nevertheless, Beijing copies that idea. So what? And in terms of the risks: Already Sydney's cauldron lighting almost flopped. Barcelona's arrow stunt was pretty risky, too. The fireworks in Torino could have fizzled terribly. Modern cauldron lighting is simply impossible without accepting certain risks.

It really can't be anything TOO, TOO elaborate because it'll come late in the proceedings of the evening;

What??? The cauldron lighting always comes late in the proceedings of the opening ceremony these days -- why shall that be a reason that the cauldron lighting should be unelaborate? I don't understand that rationale.

and unlike Stadium Australia, the Birds Nest was designed as an entity WITHOUT input as to where a visible cauldron might go.

And that's the reason why it's so difficult for us to get a clue where the cauldron might sit.

[skicross]

And couldn't be the Stadium the own cauldron? I mean, the fire could be arround the interior rim of the roof. I know that i would waste to many gas, and that it would continue being difficult to lit the cauldron, but it would be visible to everybody...

maybe someone has already said that idea, i don't know...

[Olympian2004]

And couldn't be the Stadium the own cauldron? I mean, the fire could be arround the interior rim of the roof. I know that i would waste to many gas, and that it would continue being difficult to lit the cauldron, but it would be visible to everybody...

maybe someone has already said that idea, i don't know...

The legendary "ring of fire"... Now that Vancouver obviously doesn't want to do it anymore, it could be snatched away by Beijing indeed. But I don't expect that to happen -- it's true, the gas consumption would be enormous and inconsistent with Beijing's "green concept".

[baron-pierreIV]

1. Did you forget that there's a hole in the center of the field?

2. Who says that the cauldron has to burn more gas just because it's taller? And the environmental responsibility didn't mean for Beijing to construct small, modest venues. In fact, their venues are rather bombastic and eye-catching. And so could be the cauldron.

I actually meant the dragon as the mechanical figure. So I don't know why you split up my paragraph in two parts.

3. Oh, come on! Does it read in the annals of Torino 2006 that actually, Stefania Belmondo had nothing to do with the lighting of the cauldron and that the real "final torchbearer" was a firework respectively the automatic igniter on the cauldron top? Since the IOC had no problem with the cauldron lit by something else than the original Olympic Flame, it would certainly have no problem with a mechanical figure. And couldn't Yao Ming (or whoever the final torchbearer will be) even ride on the dragon?

4. Birch also did a Olympic marching band -- nevertheless, Beijing copies that idea. So what? And in terms of the risks: Already Sydney's cauldron lighting almost flopped. Barcelona's arrow stunt was pretty risky, too. The fireworks in Torino could have fizzled terribly. Modern cauldron lighting is simply impossible without accepting certain risks.

5. What??? The cauldron lighting always comes late in the proceedings of the opening ceremony these days -- why shall that be a reason that the cauldron lighting should be unelaborate? I don't understand that rationale.

1. No; I did NOT forget. THe thing is. As has been the practice, the field is devoted to (1) the Artistic segments (the first part -- so you wouldn't have any device there that will be part of the lighting. (2) the gathering point for the athletes. Then if they use the center (as in Atlanta), the center platform or whatever, either rises out of the ground -- or as in Atlanta, that round platform was pushed into place.

So the question still remains: how do you have the guy-wire connecting the lighting point in midfield to the Tower in place, BEFORE the Ceremony when this is NOT possible because the infield will be used in the first few hours of the OC, for other purposes?

2. I didn't say the cauldron has to burn MORE gas because it's taller. If you will draw a hypotenuese from YOUR center of the field, going over the rim and the roof, to a high point that HOPEFULLY might be seen by a lot of people in the stadium, you will find that you will NEED a rather tall tower to achieve your effect. And to accomplish your scenario, having an extremely TALL burning tower would throw everything off scale. PLUS, it enforces the impression that Beijing has pollution problems, and here you have this gigantic burning TOWER (for 17 days!) not really ALLEVIATING said environ. problem!

3. No. But what I am saying is you are introducing ADDITIONAL, elaborate elements -- just for the sake of being different -- and thereby taking away from the IOC's tradition of having an athlete light the flame; so much so as to denature the basic essence of that part of the Ceremony. I mean, sure they could even use LASER beams to light the damned thing, but will they go for it? No -- because it veers away greatly from a tradition that is part of the IOC's way of doing things. An occasional divergence (the Barcelona arrow or the little Albertville, Atlanta thingamajig) would be allowed, but there is the danger of getting further and further away from the basic idea of a HUMAN athlete actually transporting the Fire of the Gods to the cauldron watching over the main venue.

4. You try to present something original in the next edition. Re an Olympic marching band for Beijing, I think, if it happens, it will not be used in the OC.

Yes, Sydney's scheme almost fizzled. Then, precisely, you scale down the chances of failure with simpler BUT more certain scenarios. Barcelona's arrow scenerio, short of Rebollo getting a heart attack on the spot, or the earth changing a 3 degree course from the moment he fired the arrow, had really like a 2% chance of going wrong. Besides, they rehearsed it some 40+ times.

5. What I'm saying is that the idea you propose REQUIRES it be set up well in advance, but since the field will be fully used for OTHER purposes earlier, then it renders your idea impractical. If it were the first event of the evening, fine. Then the wire could be taken down once it had done its job. But it's NOT. It comes at the end of the evening. Atlanta and Albertville had the little wire connection set up BEFORE the Ceremonies and did not get in the way of earlier proceedings. Torino's fireworks connection were already in place except for the little arched starter set-up of Belmondo (which would easily have been put into place for 2 or 3 minutes BEFORE Belmondo approached.) But if there was a DIRECT wire from where Belmondo lit the device TO the Tower, then that (to have the right tension, etc., ) then that would have to be sitting in place BEFORE the Ceremonies began - and as such, other parts of the Ceremony would have had to work AROUND that rigging.

If Ali had lit the fuse from the middle of the field RATHER than from the platform, then the wire connected to the tower would have to be in place BEFORE Ceremonies started. It's not something any professional Ceremony team would hoist into place in FULL view of an audience already seated there. That is what I am trying to say. Timing-wise and logistics-wise, any field to tower hook-up is NOT feasible during an actual Ceremonies.

Do you understand what I am saying? Or why am I even trying to explain this.

[baron-pierreIV]

I expect something connected to the rim of the roof.

You would have to have awfully LONG fuel lines to have it there on the rim of the roof; and again, the longer and the less straight your fuel lines, the more chances of a leakage (and a blow-up) occuring. Why risk it? Besides, people in the hihger reaches will not be able to see what happens on the rim of the roof; and (2) you would have people craning their necks to see the bottom of the fire if it were up there.

[skicross]

You would have to have awfully LONG fuel lines to have it there on the rim of the roof; and again, the longer and the less straight your fuel lines, the more chances of a leakage (and a blow-up) occuring. Why risk it? Besides, people in the hihger reaches will not be able to see what happens on the rim of the roof; and (2) you would have people craning their necks to see the bottom of the fire if it were up there.

But these people could see what is happening in the part of the rim located if front of them, everybody inside the Stadium could see, at least, a part of the olympic fire.

[baron-pierreIV]

But these people could see what is happening in the part of the rim located if front of them, everybody inside the Stadium could see, at least, a part of the olympic fire.

I wouldn't put it there if it were up to me.

[baron-pierreIV]

As a reverse counterpoint. The comet lighting the 5 rings in Athens' pond presented no logistical problems because it occured at the start of the show. Right after that, both the wire guiding the 'comet' and the 5 rings were taken down (or 'sucked' into the mid-pond space) so that other parts of the show could take place. This would NOT have been possible if this 'lighting' occured later in the show.

[Filipe_Golias]

It really can't be anything TOO, TOO elaborate because it'll come late in the proceedings of the evening; and unlike Stadium Australia, the Birds Nest was designed as an entity WITHOUT input as to where a visible cauldron might go.

Exactly. If there are no special-looking stage(s), or any other temporary structures, suspiciously positioned somewhere in the stadium, I suspect people going there to see the OC will probably do a 360º neck twist and still not know where the hell the cauldron will appear or how the lighting will be made.

Oh, the anxiety.

[Olympian2004]

5. What I'm saying is that the idea you propose REQUIRES it be set up well in advance, but since the field will be fully used for OTHER purposes earlier, then it renders your idea impractical. If it were the first event of the evening, fine. Then the wire could be taken down once it had done its job. But it's NOT. It comes at the end of the evening. Atlanta and Albertville had the little wire connection set up BEFORE the Ceremonies and did not get in the way of earlier proceedings. Torino's fireworks connection were already in place except for the little arched starter set-up of Belmondo (which would easily have been put into place for 2 or 3 minutes BEFORE Belmondo approached.) But if there was a DIRECT wire from where Belmondo lit the device TO the Tower, then that (to have the right tension, etc., ) then that would have to be sitting in place BEFORE the Ceremonies began - and as such, other parts of the Ceremony would have had to work AROUND that rigging.

If Ali had lit the fuse from the middle of the field RATHER than from the platform, then the wire connected to the tower would have to be in place BEFORE Ceremonies started. It's not something any professional Ceremony team would hoist into place in FULL view of an audience already seated there. That is what I am trying to say. Timing-wise and logistics-wise, any field to tower hook-up is NOT feasible during an actual Ceremonies.

Do you understand what I am saying? Or why am I even trying to explain this.

First of all: Why do you react so aggressively?

Secondly: You never mentioned the wire problem explicitly in your previous postings. So how the heck should I know what you were talking about?

OK, then let's withdraw that "wire to the center of the field" concept. But what is the alternative?

I still think that your flap concept can't be an alternative since the view on a cauldron top which has broken through a part of the roof would be obstructed by the surrounding parts of the roof. In your concept (positioning the cauldron opposite the VIP stands), the whole audience in opposite of the main stands could not view the cauldron since it would either be directly above their heads or out of sight because the rest of the roof is in the way.

[baron-pierreIV]

First of all: Why do you react so aggressively?

Secondly: You never mentioned the wire problem explicitly in your previous postings. So how the heck should I know what you were talking about?

OK, then let's withdraw that "wire to the center of the field" concept. But what is the alternative?

I still think that your flap concept can't be an alternative since the view on a cauldron top which has broken through a part of the roof would be obstructed by the surrounding parts of the roof. In your concept (positioning the cauldron opposite the VIP stands), the whole audience in opposite of the main stands could not view the cauldron since it would either be directly above their heads or out of sight because the rest of the roof is in the way.

Sorry for sounding so 'agressive;' it's just I know it's difficult to explain, and I do get plenty IMPATIENT if I have a lot of explaining to do. I would draw my idea too, but since I am at home and have no access to a LAN on which to post the drawing, then I am at a loss as to how to put it on here graphically. But re my and Filipe's concept, the full view would only occur on the OC night (since that is all that the IOC Charter states). After that, it doesn't matter that the T&F crowds no longer see it in full view. By then, it should be an adornment to the stadium to be seen and enjoyed by those outside, at night.

Edited September 16, 2007 by baron-pierreIV

[Olympian2004]

Sorry for sounding so 'agressive;' it's just I know it's difficult to explain, and I do get plenty IMPATIENT if I have a lot of explaining to do.

You simply hadn't to explain it so extensively -- that whole wire thing was very easy to understand. The only problem was that you didn't mention the wire stuff before, that's all.

[baron-pierreIV]

You simply hadn't to explain it so extensively -- that whole wire thing was very easy to understand. The only problem was that you didn't mention the wire stuff before, that's all.

As much as I try to be comprehensive, I can't read minds -- esp. on an internet forum.

[Ruling Czar]

Why are we even bothering about this? Whatever they do for the Opening ( even if they decide to make cheese), it shall be of such cosmic opulence that it will never be equalled in Olympic History (except by Doha2016) Of course.

[baron-pierreIV]

Why are we even bothering about this? Whatever they do for the Opening ( even if they decide to make cheese), it shall be of such cosmic opulence that it will never be equalled in Olympic History (except by Doha2016) Of course.

Because it's nice to second guess - at least for those of us with imaginations. I don't know that Beijing can really mount something super-super-spectacular, not with that space hemmed in by Birds Nest.

I finally saw the Doha lighting, and I had that scheme in mind a looonnnngggg time ago -- except (1) I would have had the horse & rider ascend over stunt cards (a la Moscow); and (2) I wanted to wait for the right city to propose it too -- of course, another totalitarian regime who wouldn't make a fuss over the body count amongst the stunt card holders underneath! Too bad Saddam Hussein was dethroned and Fidel is sick.

Edited September 18, 2007 by baron-pierreIV

[michaelb136]

I'd like to see some kinds of dragon themed lighting. How about if a dragon is brought into the stadium and then its flame is lit (with the torch), and then (forgive me, I don't know the technicalities of this kind of thing) they increase the pressure of the fuel (I don't know if anyone remembers but the Queen lit something similar in the mall during the Golden Jubilee celebrations, it was like a flame that shot 30ft into the air), and they flame then lights the cauldron?

I hope this makes sense! Probably not lol

[rav3n]

That idea was also suggested previously on this topic. I believe that it would be spectacular, but also too risky, maybe they are going to try something less ergonomic