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As far as I'm concerned the Italian police were not interested in maintaining order. All they wanted to do was beat up Manchester United supporters. It was barbaric, it was despicable and the sooner it is condemned by the powers that be and the perpetrators are sacked and prosecuted the better.

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The usual bunch of drunk hooligans and the usual english tabloids which defend them.. Blair's speech was ridiculous: he condamned the police without even know what happened.

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Well .. tootemham lost too .... more violence , more figure ... What with all the football riot .

See what happened with the Glasgow Rangers supporters in Pamplona... They never do anything... <_< It's always a police fault

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Nobody has suggested that all the Tottenham fans were blameless, in the same way that nobody has suggested that all the Manchester United fans were blameless. But you cannot get away from the fact that the disorder from the Tottenham fans was started by the behaviour of the police in hitting innocent men, women and children.

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"The usual bunch of drunk hooligans and the usual english tabloids which defend them"

If it were only the tabloids you'd have a point. As it is, every paper in Britain (even those who would normally agree with your point if it were true) agrees that the treatment our fans received was horrendous, so your point is no longer valid. I can't say I'm surprised, but the three long posts I've written about this in the Euro 2012 thread have been completely ignored by those of you who continue to blindly defend your police and stadium security without really thinking about what you're saying. That's a shame. Maybe you missed them. If you want me to repost them here I'll be happy to.

In fact, the ignorance of that post has annoyed me so much, I'm going to repost them here whether you want me to or not.

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POST #1 (from after the Man Utd game)

We're not talking about your national side. There is a problem with hooliganism in club football in Italy. You can't deny that and if you do there's no point in continuing this argument.

From what I've been reading and seeing today it seems there were four main problems:

1. Some Man Utd fans charged towards the plastic fence when Roma scored.

2. Roma fans did the same and threw objects over the fence at the Man Utd fans.

3. There were no stewards to speak of - one fan who emailed Sky Sports News said there were stewards but they were too busy supporting Roma to be bothered about crowd control.

4. The riot police were only placed in the away end (why?) and were very heavy handed, unecessarily so. The fact that there were no riot police on the other side of the fence meant that Roma fans continued throwing missiles into the away section.

Point four is the crucial point. All teams from all countries have hardcore elements who will cause trouble if given the opportunity. The point is, they shouldn't be given the opportunity, least of all within the stadium. The overreaction by the riot police (riot police for heaven's sake! That's not the way to manage crowds!) was terrible. Ok, you could argue that some of the Man Utd hooligans deserved to be dealt with harshly and I won't necessarily argue with you there. BUT, the situation became chaotic (it shouldn't have been allowed to) and INNOCENT fans were beaten up by the riot police. I've heard stories of old people and Dads with their kids getting caught up in the violence on the news today, just becasue they couldn't get out of the way. I'm not trying to make excuses for English hooligans or deny they exist, what I'm saying is your police and security didn't manage the situation correctly last night and people got hurt who didn't deserve to.

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To respond specifically to some of your other points:

Please note that everything that happened within the stadium was only about police and english supporters

Not true. The reason you say it was only a problem between the police and the English fans is precicley because there were no police controlling the home fans' behaivour. The home fans were just as much to blame as the Man Utd fans but the police response was disproportionate and aimed only at one set of troublemakers. Questions need to be asked as to why this was.

Interestingly, I hear a ban on fans at Roma's stadium this weekend that was lifted earlier in the week has been reinstated by the city authority. That action says more to me than any words because it is an admission that some Roma fans are hooligans and, more crucially, that the police and the authorities do not yet know the best way of controlling the stadium crowds.

Of course if someone says that we could have stewards not police in the stadiums, I can only agree...but this is our law (stadia are cities' properties not clubs') and by now we can do nothing about that.

I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Whoever is in charge of security, whether it be stewards employed by the club or the police, has to get the situation under control. It's no good saying "we can do nothing about that". The hooligan problem in England hasn't gone away entirely but it is properly mananged within our stadiums. Italy should be doing something similar.

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POST #2 (Just after the Spurs game)

I'd love to know what happened at the Spurs game, which I watched on ITV, as it wasn't entirely clear from their coverage whether the police were heavy handed or not in this case. However, there are suggestions they did overreact and if this story is true, have a lot of explaning to do.

Tottenham have accused Spanish police of hitting a disabled fan during Thursday's Uefa Cup tie in Seville.

Riot police charged away fans midway through the first half of the match as trouble broke out inside the ground.

Spurs club secretary John Alexander said: "We know one disabled fan was hit with a baton with such force that it knocked him out of his wheelchair."

Also, as if to prove that having riot police isn't a good way of controlling crowds and can often make a situation worse:

The fighting continued into the half-time interval but died down when Spurs officials persuaded the Spanish authorities to take the police out of the away section in the second half.

This confirms stories I've heard that the Spurs stewards who were drafted in for the match were less than happy at the Spanish police wading into a situation that they believed they had under control.

Anyway, we'll have to await UEFA's verdict, which I'm not looking forward to, as despite my arguments there were undoubtedly some total pricks who let our club down last night.

Going back to Wednesday, all the points Arwebb made about the Man Utd game and continental handling of security are totally true and pretty much what I said in post #228 (of the Euro 2012 thread).

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Before this turns into an England vs the rest of Europe debate (which I don't really want it to be), I want to say something else. I know I have much more in common with the averege Seville or Roma fan who just wants to watch a football match than any of the Spurs fans who thought it'd be big to throw chairs last night, despite me also supporting Spurs. I was embarrassed by some of them last night as I have been when a small number of England fans have done similar things in the past. I just wish you'd feel the same way about your policing because, certainly in the Man Utd game, it was just as big a factor in what when on.

What I'm trying to say is, only when both these problems (hooligansim and poor policing) are recognised by both of the parties involved is there ever going to be a solution. I'll naturally point out the bad policing, as you'll naturally point out our fans behaviour. The sad fact is both were reasons for what went on last night, the night before and countless other times over the last few seasons. You seem like a reasonable guy Cesco, so I'm sure you'd agree that finger pointing fuelled only by our sense of national pride won't help and that to counter this problem our nations probably need to work together.

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POST #3 (a day or so after the Spurs game)

Just been reading some Tottenham forums and some more statements have come out recently regarding the Seville violence:

Club Secretary John Alexander is today calling for answers from the Spanish authorities as to what prompted the disturbing scenes during the match last night:

"Our supporters have been on four trips into Europe before this and have behaved impeccably so something was clearly different in the way they were treated last night to suffer this sort of response," said John this afternoon.

"We really need to get to the bottom of just what the police were trying to do when they entered those segregation lines. We have been distressed to hear about incidents involving our supporters at a time when they were showing no aggression whatsoever and also in respect of our disabled supporters being set upon by the Spanish riot police. We need to understand how we are in a position whereby we have two clearly identifiable Spurs Stewards assaulted by the Spanish police, along with our disability co-ordinator being injured too.

Martin Jol, our manager said:

"Even after the game was horrendous, there was one fan taking a picture of the team bus and a policeman battered him in the face. The players were really upset."

Daniel Wynne, of Tottenham Hotspur Supporters' Trust, told Sky Sports News:

"The pictures are of seats being thrown but that was 15 minutes after an unprovoked attack by the police. When they retreated the trouble stopped."

Haringey police chief Simon O'Brien, at the match as an observer, also questioned the police's approach:

"The Spurs fans' behaviour was excellent throughout the day and the Spurs stewards did what I can only describe as a remarkable and commendable job at the match. I shall be assisting fully with the investigation.

"What I would say now is that it was quite clear that there was a different level of police intervention to that which we employ in the UK and the introduction of the police during the match in one particular section of the crowd undoubtedly contributed to the disturbances that we saw."

Very worrying quotes.

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If it were only the tabloids you'd have a point. As it is, every paper in Britain (even those who would normally agree with your point if it were true) agrees that the treatment our fans received was horrendous, so your point is no longer valid. I can't say I'm surprised, but the three long posts I've written about this in the Euro 2012 thread have been completely ignored by those of you who continue to blindly defend your police and stadium security without really thinking about what you're saying. That's a shame. Maybe you missed them. If you want me to repost them here I'll be happy to.

In fact, the ignorance of that post has annoyed me so much, I'm going to repost them here whether you want me to or not.

If English fans had gone on the rampage, then the British press would have no hesitation in condemning them utterly, and nor would I. I suggest those who criticise us should actually look at the facts and not their own prejudices.

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I doubt it, but Man Utd had three big players missing which made it all the more remarkable. Almost certainly 3 of the last 4 teams will be English, which is great!

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I doubt it, but Man Utd had three big players missing which made it all the more remarkable. Almost certainly 3 of the last 4 teams will be English, which is great!

Hopefully is a German club that joins them, hopefulyl Bayern Munchen can get through, and than bet the English done and take the trophy.

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What a difference in policing we saw at Old Trafford last night. The police used just the right amount of force but without loosing the plot. They were fair and dealt with the situation in a professional way. I am sure the Roma supporters were relieved that our police don't go in with violence and just smash all supporters round the head with batons and ask questions later.

I live about 5 minutes from old Trafford and it was quite clear that both sides were intent on trouble. The difference between English holligans and Italian hooligans is that the Italians seem to like carrying knives and stabbing people. You rarely hear of this happening with English hooligans. They are more likely to get drunk and want to fight and throw stones. I must admit that this has confirmed to me that I never want to go to a football match in Italy ever. I have big praise for our police. This was a lesson for the Italian police in how to manage football hooliganism.

Strange how we rarely get any trouble like this in the Premiership. Is it just because the crowds are managed too well with good policing. Perhaps there are fights, but they go on far away from the grounds and don't make the news.

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I think the latter is more likely unfortunately.

I don't want to dwell on this for too long because it was a brilliant night for English football last night. However, the other big difference between England and Italy, aside from your point about how the police acted when violence did take place, was where the violence took place. There was no violence inside Old Trafford; there hasn't been violence inside a Premiership ground for years and years and that, for me, is the big difference between the English and Italian systems.

Not only are our police better at handling violence when it does break out (as Mallaka rightly pointed out), but there are also proper systems in place to ensure it doesn't break out within the stadiums - decent ticketing, proper checks of bags, no terracing, no heavy handed riot police, CCTV all over the place, seats screwed down properly, no barriers or fences, decent segregation between opposing fans etc. etc.

I'm confident we'll see no trouble inside White Hart Lane for the 2nd leg of Tottenham v Seville for these very same reasons.

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As italian I felt sorrow to see Roma being humiliated in that way.. even though I've never estimated so much the squad as its captain, I really expected something better after the results against Lyon and Manchester in the first half.. if not a win at least a decent exit.

bside, as a juventus supporter, I must confess I enjoyed a little seeing first Inter and now Roma out of Europe. ^_^

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I know what you mean Rei, it's a win-win situation! It's the same with me and Arsenal and to a lesser extent Chelsea. I like to see them get through because they are (or in Arsenal's case claim to be) English, but I also enjoy seeing them go out. I know it's cruel but last season's CL final was a great match for me, especially when Jens "don't touch me" Lehmann got sent off.

I'm hoping for a Man Utd v Liverpool final now. That'd be the perfect outcome to this season's Champion's League as far as I'm concerned.

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I know what you mean Rei, it's a win-win situation! It's the same with me and Arsenal and to a lesser extent Chelsea. I like to see them get through because they are (or in Arsenal's case claim to be) English, but I also enjoy seeing them go out. I know it's cruel but last season's CL final was a great match for me, especially when Jens "don't touch me" Lehmann got sent off.

I'm hoping for a Man Utd v Liverpool final now. That'd be the perfect outcome to this season's Champion's League as far as I'm concerned.

I am hoping for a Bayern Munchen vs. Cheslea final, I would love to see Ballack agaist the team he left.

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Hehe. Looks like we'll be supporting opposite sides in the semis then. Bring it on!

Ballack's flattered to decieve in England. He's come good in the last few matches for Chelsea (much like Shevchenko) but considering the amount of hype pre-season has done very little.

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For the third time in the history of this tournament 3 teams from the same country reach the semifinals:

Spain in 2000 with Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia

Italy in 2003 with Milan, Juve and Inter

and now England with Manchester, Liverpool and Chelsea

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