China+Hong Kong+Taiwan together?

[bernard]

A meeting between the British PM and the key political parties in Northern Ireland which include separatist parties like Sinn Fein and the Social Democrats in Leeds Castle, Kent has just ended. No agreement was reached on the Northern Ireland peace process.

The British Government has acknowledged that it has to consider these splittists to be partners in negotiation. Is there any such acknowledgement in China? What I mean is, will the China Government sit down with Taiwanese separatists such as Ah Bian and Annette Lu to negotiate or does it consider them to be anathema?

[mousepad]

A meeting between the British PM and the key political parties in Northern Ireland which include separatist parties like Sinn Fein and the Social Democrats in Leeds Castle, Kent has just ended. No agreement was reached on the Northern Ireland peace process.

The British Government has acknowledged that it has to consider these splittists to be partners in negotiation. Is there any such acknowledgement in China? What I mean is, will the China Government sit down with Taiwanese separatists such as Ah Bian and Annette Lu to negotiate or does it consider them to be anathema?

The mainland government signaled its intention for a dialogue ( not a meeting, but it would be firm step toward a meeting) with Ah Bian several times. but what was the reponse? Ah Bian took that as a sign of weakness, and took more arrogant steps toward independece.

[<AC> fenyx]

In my opinion it is good idea. Dont forget the olympic ideas and spirit - the object of the OG is tounite the world (friends and enemys) ???  ???  ??? java script:emoticon('???')

[ghost1]

In my opinion it is good idea. Dont forget the olympic ideas and spirit - the object of the OG is tounite the world (friends and enemys) ???  ???  ??? java script:emoticon('???')

What can we say more?

[Xu Wen-Ting]

Ohhhhhhhh,so hot this topic...

so tired after reading your posts...

really a hard reading task...

About China Mainland and Tanwan,i think that's really a long road to be the one...

   Now im still thing about if China mainland HongKong and Taiwan were in one banner in the Olympic Opening ceremony,what will be written?  just"China" or "Great China"   :cool:

[Guardian]

Ohhhhhhhh,so hot this topic...

so tired after reading your posts...

really a hard reading task...

About China Mainland and Tanwan,i think that's really a long road to be the one...

   Now im still thing about if China mainland HongKong and Taiwan were in one banner in the Olympic Opening ceremony,what will be written?  just"China" or "Great China"   :cool:

The Chinese Commonwealth??  :laugh:

[GODHAN]

Here you go...

http://english.people.com.cn/200312/03/eng...03_129577.shtml

A set of statistics has indicated that an outstanding magnetic effect has been represented in the soaring economy of China's mainland. By the end of 2002, China's mainland has attracted a total foreign direct investment of over 440 billion US dollars, ranking the first among developing countries in terms of utilizing foreign capitals. Investment from Taiwan to the mainland has been going up, exceeding 33 billion US dollars, accounting for 7.4 percent of the total foreign investment into China's mainland. Products made by the Chinese mainland are expanding in the world market with outstanding growth. The number of items approved from the Chinese mainland into Taiwan has surpassed 8300 in all.

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/issues/v04n01_ch1.cfm

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/pac0148.htm

http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011217.htm

If you need any other sources, let me know.  Since you went to college in Beijing, you probably took economics, and understand the significanace of direct foreign investment in China by Taiwanese businessmen.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I think one of the preconditions of an UNITED TEAM OF CHINA are confidence-building measures between the PEOPLE´S REPBULIC OF CHINA and the REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

In my point of view this will become very difficult, because both sides will have to make concessions.

[GODHAN]

Mousepad,

I guess Tiananmen Square and the Falun Gong deaths aren't murders due to the Chinese Government's rights to kill anyone legally.  Nonetheless, I found these examples on your favorite informational source, the Google search engine.

Taiwanese politician kidnapped for ransom in Taiwan, and murdered

http://www.taiwandc.org/nws-9836.htm

ritish woman murdered while hiking

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%...20846%2C00.html

Another British man murdered while travelling in China

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text10-9-2002-27870.asp

Mass poisoning is considered murder right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Chinese sailors kidnap Taiwanese sailors

http://www.goasiapacific.com/news/GoAsiaPa...BNA_1168244.htm

Murders in Time Magazine Asia- significant source right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Your fellow Chinese criminal, imigrates to Canada

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101021014/story.html

[baron-pierreIV]

OK, my main question is can anyone give me an estimate of how much a good Opening Ceremony seat would cost?  And are there any of those picturesque lakes around Beijing with the nice hotels?

[mousepad]

Here you go...

http://english.people.com.cn/200312/03/eng...03_129577.shtml

A set of statistics has indicated that an outstanding magnetic effect has been represented in the soaring economy of China's mainland. By the end of 2002, China's mainland has attracted a total foreign direct investment of over 440 billion US dollars, ranking the first among developing countries in terms of utilizing foreign capitals. Investment from Taiwan to the mainland has been going up, exceeding 33 billion US dollars, accounting for 7.4 percent of the total foreign investment into China's mainland. Products made by the Chinese mainland are expanding in the world market with outstanding growth. The number of items approved from the Chinese mainland into Taiwan has surpassed 8300 in all.

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/issues/v04n01_ch1.cfm

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/pac0148.htm

http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011217.htm

If you need any other sources, let me know.  Since you went to college in Beijing, you probably took economics, and understand the significanace of direct foreign investment in China by Taiwanese businessmen.

I am getting tired of this debate. You call 7.4 percent a majority?

let's do not debate on if mainland's economy relies on taiwan investment, that insults my intelligence. let's debate on if mainland's economy relies on foreign investment in general.

you remember that after 89, an economic sanction was imposed on the mainland, right? I bet your government was quick to report that. what followed is that foreign investment stopped coming in, lots of foreign companies pulled out what they already invested here. Guess what? the mainland saw a growth rate above 10 percent for three consecutive years after 89, domestic industry exploded during that period. Is that what you call "shambles"?

[mousepad]

Mousepad,

I guess Tiananmen Square and the Falun Gong deaths aren't murders due to the Chinese Government's rights to kill anyone legally.  Nonetheless, I found these examples on your favorite informational source, the Google search engine.

Taiwanese politician kidnapped for ransom in Taiwan, and murdered

http://www.taiwandc.org/nws-9836.htm

ritish woman murdered while hiking

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%...20846%2C00.html

Another British man murdered while travelling in China

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text10-9-2002-27870.asp

Mass poisoning is considered murder right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Chinese sailors kidnap Taiwanese sailors

http://www.goasiapacific.com/news/GoAsiaPa...BNA_1168244.htm

Murders in Time Magazine Asia- significant source right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Your fellow Chinese criminal, imigrates to Canada

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101021014/story.html

I am getting tired of this too. the mainland has 1.3 billion people, there will certainly be crimes from time to time (also, none of the links you gave indicates a crime against taiwanese or japanese business people as you claimed in your previous posts, crime against politicians and sailors has a different reason). If you paid any attention to what happed in the US, you should have seen as many crime stories there (sorry Americans).

you got seven links below, spanning 6 years. Divide 7 by 1.3 billion, multiply it by 23 million. If I am willing to spend the time, I am pretty sure I can find that number of crime stories in Taiwan over the last 6 years.

Tiananmen Square and Falun Gong? I thought you were talking about crimes by grumpy poor farmers against rich people from the beginning. Anyway, you got only one side of the Falun Gong story, I would be wasting my time if I debate with you on this.

By the way, I major in engineering.

[Guest]

GODHAM's arguments have absolutely no merit. They're based on rhetoric that no doubt Taiwan's own government still propagates to its own people. To be frank they brainwash and lie constantly. The Chinese Government today is held accountable for its past and still has to deal with the fac that its opening up to business. Taiwan fears that China's recognition will lead to even more power for the People's Republic, but then again Taiwan never had power to begin with. No one fears Taiwan, but some nations fear the power of China, to this day since centuries past.

Taiwan's own politicians should perhaps unite and stop fighting amongst themselves. I've seen the fist fights that happen in Taiwan's government and it is embarassing to see such barbaric behavior in people who claim to be a proper China. As a chinese myself I am ashamed that they would identify themselves as the same culture as my own.

[Xu Wen-Ting]

Please please please please please not so off off topic here

here just for 2008 ,and see what's in here.

not only this one,but also many others.Where is GBModerator?

Can't bear it.

please post these in off-topic,ok? Thanks

[GODHAN]

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/issues/v04n01_ch1.cfm

http://www.csis.org/pacfor/pac0148.htm

http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011217.htm

If you need any other sources, let me know.  Since you went to college in Beijing, you probably took economics, and understand the significanace of direct foreign investment in China by Taiwanese businessmen.

I am getting tired of this debate. You call 7.4 percent a majority?

let's do not debate on if mainland's economy relies on taiwan investment, that insults my intelligence. let's debate on if mainland's economy relies on foreign investment in general.

you remember that after 89, an economic sanction was imposed on the mainland, right? I bet your government was quick to report that. what followed is that foreign investment stopped coming in, lots of foreign companies pulled out what they already invested here. Guess what? the mainland saw a growth rate above 10 percent for three consecutive years after 89, domestic industry exploded during that period. Is that what you call "shambles"?

Wait, are you illiterate or naive?  What don't you understand about Taiwan being the leading foreign investor in China?  What don't you understand about Taiwan's investments being under-calculated due to lack of direct dealings between China and Taiwan?  Oh yes, I remember you left China because of all the opportunities for you in the West.  Why did you leave?  Great opportunities in China.  You can be a farmer and buy a CAR!  WOW.  You can open a factory by yourself too, without foreign investment.  Why did you leave Mousepad?  Why?

Do not deny China has the most executions in the world. More than the per capita of any other country in the world.  WHy are these people being executed?  For petty crimes?  Stealing instant noodles at 7-11?  Perhaps making illegal copies of American movies and Windows XP?  Probably not, since China doesn't care about intellectual property, as it has been awhile since China doesn't seem to respect the right of the individual mind.  So tell me mousepad?

Answer me before you spew you b.s.  Anyone that is reading this has seen your excuses, never citing any truths, but only avoiding the answers.

[GODHAN]

Mousepad,

I guess Tiananmen Square and the Falun Gong deaths aren't murders due to the Chinese Government's rights to kill anyone legally.  Nonetheless, I found these examples on your favorite informational source, the Google search engine.

Taiwanese politician kidnapped for ransom in Taiwan, and murdered

http://www.taiwandc.org/nws-9836.htm

ritish woman murdered while hiking

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%...20846%2C00.html

Another British man murdered while travelling in China

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text10-9-2002-27870.asp

Mass poisoning is considered murder right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Chinese sailors kidnap Taiwanese sailors

http://www.goasiapacific.com/news/GoAsiaPa...BNA_1168244.htm

Murders in Time Magazine Asia- significant source right?

http://www.time.com/time....00.html

Your fellow Chinese criminal, imigrates to Canada

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101021014/story.html

I am getting tired of this too. the mainland has 1.3 billion people, there will certainly be crimes from time to time (also, none of the links you gave indicates a crime against taiwanese or japanese business people as you claimed in your previous posts, crime against politicians and sailors has a different reason). If you paid any attention to what happed in the US, you should have seen as many crime stories there (sorry Americans).

you got seven links below, spanning 6 years. Divide 7 by 1.3 billion, multiply it by 23 million. If I am willing to spend the time, I am pretty sure I can find that number of crime stories in Taiwan over the last 6 years.

Tiananmen Square and Falun Gong? I thought you were talking about crimes by grumpy poor farmers against rich people from the beginning. Anyway, you got only one side of the Falun Gong story, I would be wasting my time if I debate with you on this.

By the way, I major in engineering.

Tired of what?  Tired of the lies your government tells you?  Tired of the lack of open media in China?  Do you ever see Western media running around with cameras in China, filming whatever they want?  No, of course not.  You cannot possibly tell me that media in China has access as they do in Taiwan or anywhere in the West.

Yes, I brought up Falun Gong.  What is your side of the story?  You're telling me that my side is wrong or what?  I don't have a side to tell you the truth.  I laugh at the Falun Gong for being such a cultish religion that makes the followers risk their lives, just in order to make a stand against the Communists.  But I follow Amnesty International, and I believe they are not making this stuff up.  Unlike you believing just anything the Communists spew, I am very open-minded about the Chinese situation.  I have many ties to government on both sides of the strait, and I see many Mainlanders that see the treatment of the Falun Gong followers, sometimes their own family, neighbor, or friends, as very, very cruel.  This is just going to escalate.  There are mass protests EVERYDAY in New York City and Los Angeles this month.  During the 2008 Olympics, they will be in Beijing as well.  This is just going to be another huge embarassment for China in 2008, along with Tiananmen Square.

Also, I just wanted to be clear about the crime situation.  Crime in China is lower than the rest of the West.  However, in places like DongGuan, ShenZhen, XiaMen, there is very high crime rates against foreigners, including Taiwanese and HK businessmen.  If you turn a blind eye to anything that happens in China, yea, you won't hear about it.  If you have been to DongGuan, and seen the differences between the rich and poor, you would have seen the type of crimes I am talking about.  Nobody said they were farmers either.

[GODHAN]

GODHAM's arguments have absolutely no merit. They're based on rhetoric that no doubt Taiwan's own government still propagates to its own people. To be frank they brainwash and lie constantly. The Chinese Government today is held accountable for its past and still has to deal with the fac that its opening up to business. Taiwan fears that China's recognition will lead to even more power for the People's Republic, but then again Taiwan never had power to begin with. No one fears Taiwan, but some nations fear the power of China, to this day since centuries past.

Taiwan's own politicians should perhaps unite and stop fighting amongst themselves. I've seen the fist fights that happen in Taiwan's government and it is embarassing to see such barbaric behavior in people who claim to be a proper China. As a chinese myself I am ashamed that they would identify themselves as the same culture as my own.

How do you know when you're talking to a Communist?  When he constantly mentions "rethoric propogated by the government," "brainwash," and blast the fact that their are multiple factions in a government.

Are you sure you live in Canada Cheng?  You do understand Democracy right?  You also know the Democracy is a goal of the Olympic movement right?  You know the ancient Athenians had democracy right?  You know what democracy means?  Each person has a right to shape the country the way they want.  Obviously you don't know that, or you wouldn't say a "government needs to unite."  You actually think a country participates in brainwashing?  You must be joking.  What type of brainwashing?  Tell me.

You talk about power.  Tell me how the Mainland recieved its UN membership, UN permanent seat in Security Council, full Olympic membership?  Tell me, how?  It was Taiwan that decided give up these rights in order to preserve the sanctity of one China.  Your own Commnist Government pursued SEPERATE entry into these entities, and Chiang Kai-Shek saw the how this would mean Taiwan was an independent nation, and gave these privileges to the Mainland.  I'm sure you know this, and it is a well-known fact OUTSIDE of Taiwanese textbooks.  BTW, next time you speak of power, please feel free to e-mail me, and meet privately with me.  I visit Montreal and Vancouver a few times a year, and I'd be free to show you the power of the individual.

You laugh at the politicians of Taiwan.... Do you respect the government of Britain and the U.S.?  Yes or No?  Since you care about global politics so much, you should know the fistfights that go on in the British Parliament all the time.  You should also know that congressmen in the U.S. have beaten each other to the brink of death... I guess any sort of democracy is better than the secret police that eliminate political rivals in China.

For those unfamilar with Chinese politics, which probably includes you champions of Communist China, here is a story about 21 century politics in the world's most populous country, and 3rd largest economy....

Everyone knows Li Peng, the hard-line Communist Premier that declared Martial Law in 1989 during the student protests that led to the Tiananmen Square MASSACRE of THOUSANDS of Communist-educated students, ages 15-25.  The Western world and Asian neighbors of China feared Li Peng would assume power after Deng, as he was known as an idiot within China.  Deng XiaoPing, who still wielded absolute power at the time,  was not happy with Li Peng, and handed power over to Jiang Zemin, who quelled students protests peacefully in Shanghai.

Li Peng was left with much power, and was known to tout China's nuclear capabilities to hit Los Angeles and the West Coast of the U.S. when meeting with American diplomats.  Since Deng's death, Jiang and Li had struggles of political power.  In 2000, Jiang ordered Cheng KeJie, Li Peng's right-hand man and slated-successor, to be executed.  Cheng was 'indicted' in a corruption scandal regarding sales of valuable land around the Forbidden City in Beijing.  HOWEVER, it was well-known that the key member in the scandal was Li Peng's son, Li Xiaopeng, and US$20 million was found in his mother's bank account.  Instead of executing Li Peng's wife and son, the scandal was pinned to Cheng KeJie.  Needless to say, this was Jiang Zemin's show of power to Li Peng, and Li Peng began to give up his various posts of power to the younger generation.  When Li Peng stepped down as the Chairman of the National People's Congress, he was only able to give power to one of his disciples, as the remainder of the power went to Jiang Zemin and Zu RongJi's dsciples.

Beautiful huh?  Instead of a few arguments and perhaps a fistfight, China's power is still handed down, and whoever commands the military and secret police, controls the future of the country....

Thankfully for the rest of the world, Jiang ZeMin won out, and Li Peng and his hardcore Communist faction is not commanding the world's 3rd largest nuclear stockpile.  However, Li Peng's pet project, the horrendous Three Gorges Dam will forever change the face of China.  Li Peng decided that China needed the World's largest dam, when it was advised to him to build multiple dams as a better way to control flooding of the YangTze.

Score another one for Communism.

[Guest]

The Olympics does not promote democracy. The Olympics promotes peaceful competition and fair play amongst nations throughout the world by cooperative competition in sports and athletics.

Democracy in Canada I believe, I am active in the usage of democracy in my own nation. However when I leave this nation, my home, and go to another nation where the rules and laws are not the same as Canada I am obligated to obey those laws of the nation where I am present. I will not export Democracy to China because it won't work there yet. Maybe one day it will but that day is not today. I believe in Democracy in Canada, but I also believe in a dictatorship in China because that is how things can function there.

The Three gorges dam is unfortunately a necessary requirement to meet China's massive energy needs. One could make the same argument about the Hoover Dam, and whether it was worth the effort, cost to build, had it not been for the Hoover Dam, Los Angeles and most of South California's vast economic growth would not have been possible. FYI the Three Gorges Dam project met with open disapproval in the National People's Congress in Beijing where officials openly opposed it and argued against it despite the backing of the Central Committee and politibureau. Yet oddly those officials who were against it still are in their official positions today, despite the dictatorial power of the head of state.

Falun Gong followers made the mistake of opposing the government. They should have learnt their lessons from Tienanamen square, that the Communist Party of China will not tolerate any insurgence of insurrection at all. They made that stance clear with tragic circumstances but the CCP will not hesitate to use it again if the safety and stability of the state is in question. As a Chinese I understand this. In China, it is China that comes first, not the will of individuals. China's safety and integrity itself has to be protected at all costs. Of course Falun Gong itself is entirely harmless but when the group and supporters organize for a political movement against the central government, I shake my head. They got what was coming when they stepped against the wind and this is the tragic result.

[bernard]

Are you a PROC national, Cheng?

[baron-pierreIV]

This is a most interesting thread to lurk in.  I'm learning a lot.  Keep it up, boys.   :cool:

[Guest]

No I am not a PROC National. I was born and raised in Canada.

[mousepad]

Dear GODHAN,

"Anwer me before you spew you b. s.", Oh, that's some order. Do you always talk to people like that? Sorry I do not always follow orders. Oh, please do not fill this forum with those kind of words, Also that may spoil the good reputation of the Taiwanese.  

I will leave it to the readers to judge who is citing facts and who is making claims without backing them up with evidence. It is your right to believe that mainland's economy is on the hands of Taiwan investment, that the mainland cannot open a factory by itself. Stick to your belief, and good luck.

Sure, media control in the Mainland is much tighter than in western countries. but I did see a CNN reporter at the Tiananmen square on a June 4th anniversary, and I do not think any country would allow foreign reporters to film whatever they want. Also, it does not take a genius to figure out this: if a Taiwan busineesman is kidnapped or murdered in the mainland, the Taiwan media can report it without even visiting the mainland, and it will report it. Since I was not able to find even one single report on kidnapping or murdering of Taiwanese businessman by one of the best search engines, my conclusion is that your claim of "rampant kidnapping and murdering of taiwanese businessman" is false, outrageously false. This is an internet forum, and you get away with that. A free tip: in real life, you can get in serious trouble by making a serious and false claim on other people.

while I am not obligated to prove to you that I have no intention to immigrate to the US, I do want you to know that I never deny that the educational system in the US is better than that of the mainland,  that I have not filed an immigration application to any country until this very moment, that I still have my position in my company in the mainland, and I hate it when people claim that I intend to immigrate to the US.

On farmers buying a car, I do have two elementary school classmates that bought a car (to be more accurate, one of them bought a van). Of course it is not a Mercedes Benz, but it is a car. and my classmates are not full time farmers, they spend only a couple of weeks on farming each year. The guy who owns the van transports people (and sometimes goods) from the village to the city, he also owns a store. FYI, only a small portion of the farmers in Hunan province are full time farmers, lots of them work in a city for most of the time.

I do not have the energy and time to refute the other claims you made.  Plus, you tend to make another claim once you initial claim is proven to be false . If that cycle keeps going on, I could end up doing this for the rest of my life. I got more important things to do.

Forgive me for not responding to your future posts on this topic. Despite this battle, and the s-word, you are still welcome to visit the mainland, either for sight seeing or for business.

I wish you well.

[GODHAN]

Dear GODHAN,

"Anwer me before you spew you b. s.", Oh, that's some order. Do you always talk to people like that? Sorry I do not always follow orders. Oh, please do not fill this forum with those kind of words, Also that may spoil the good reputation of the Taiwanese.  

I will leave it to the readers to judge who is citing facts and who is making claims without backing them up with evidence. It is your right to believe that mainland's economy is on the hands of Taiwan investment, that the mainland cannot open a factory by itself. Stick to your belief, and good luck.

Sure, media control in the Mainland is much tighter than in western countries. but I did see a CNN reporter at the Tiananmen square on a June 4th anniversary, and I do not think any country would allow foreign reporters to film whatever they want. Also, it does not take a genius to figure out this: if a Taiwan busineesman is kidnapped or murdered in the mainland, the Taiwan media can report it without even visiting the mainland, and it will report it. Since I was not able to find even one single report on kidnapping or murdering of Taiwanese businessman by one of the best search engines, my conclusion is that your claim of "rampant kidnapping and murdering of taiwanese businessman" is false, outrageously false. This is an internet forum, and you get away with that. A free tip: in real life, you can get in serious trouble by making a serious and false claim on other people.

while I am not obligated to prove to you that I have no intention to immigrate to the US, I do want you to know that I never deny that the educational system in the US is better than that of the mainland,  that I have not filed an immigration application to any country until this very moment, that I still have my position in my company in the mainland, and I hate it when people claim that I intend to immigrate to the US.

On farmers buying a car, I do have two elementary school classmates that bought a car (to be more accurate, one of them bought a van). Of course it is not a Mercedes Benz, but it is a car. and my classmates are not full time farmers, they spend only a couple of weeks on farming each year. The guy who owns the van transports people (and sometimes goods) from the village to the city, he also owns a store. FYI, only a small portion of the farmers in Hunan province are full time farmers, lots of them work in a city for most of the time.

I do not have the energy and time to refute the other claims you made.  Plus, you tend to make another claim once you initial claim is proven to be false . If that cycle keeps going on, I could end up doing this for the rest of my life. I got more important things to do.

Forgive me for not responding to your future posts on this topic. Despite this battle, and the s-word, you are still welcome to visit the mainland, either for sight seeing or for business.

I wish you well.

A couple of things, and then I'll let this rest.

First of all, I can say I searched Google, and find out that the earth does not exist.  I don't know what keywords you entered into Google to find nothing, so I did my own search on Google, and quickly found these sites.  These sites are not "Taiwanese Gov't propaganda" sites, so you can take the time to read it, and judge for yourself.  If you are too insulted to read the contents, then this argument is meaningless.

One of the key principles of democracy is the freedom of the media.  The U.S., Canada, and most of Western Europe opens itself to independent journalists.  Unlike in China, Russia, or say North Korea, these journalists are not employed by the government that they report on.  Even in Hong Kong and Taiwan, media has access to anything that is not restricted for security reasons.  You cite the  CNN reporter at the June 4th anniversary of Tiananmen Square as some sort of big change in China's public policy toward freedom of information.  However, do you think that a reporter at this anniversary can truly uncover something extraordinary?  I don't think so.

I do not think any country would allow foreign reporters to film whatever they want...

U.S. President Richard Nixon was forced into resignation due to two journalists investigating the integrity of Nixon's re-election campaign.  Is that enough evidence to show you the power of the media and independent investigative journalism in the West?  I hope so.

About the farmers buying cars and your lack of intentions to immigrate to the U.S. are really not my business.

I have spent much of the past decade of my life in the Mainland, but I thank you for your invitation.  I hope you learn someday, the economic miracle in China is not based on some "Big Bang" theory.  The foreign direct investment in the Mainland gives good paying jobs to the Chinese, while giving expertise and a futile economic ground for the Mainlanders themselves to work in.  I know many ridiculous wealthy Mainland businessmen.  They do not need anybody's help to establish a business, or open a factory, etc.  HOWEVER, these people were just regular citizens two decades ago, and they did not suddenly have the wealth they have today.  

Many of my closest friends are from the Mainland, so there is obviously no hatred for the Mainland.  However, to have an academic discussion of China, and not discuss any of the history of the "Economic Miracle" nor to discuss the negatives of a Totalitarian government would make this forum just another propagandistic mouthpiece of a country that does not need any more publicity, as the world already realizes China's importance in Global affairs.

[GODHAN]

The Olympics does not promote democracy. The Olympics promotes peaceful competition and fair play amongst nations throughout the world by cooperative competition in sports and athletics.

Okay, so name one Olympic Summer Games host country that does not have some form of democratic government.

Democracy in Canada I believe, I am active in the usage of democracy in my own nation. However when I leave this nation, my home, and go to another nation where the rules and laws are not the same as Canada I am obligated to obey those laws of the nation where I am present. I will not export Democracy to China because it won't work there yet. Maybe one day it will but that day is not today. I believe in Democracy in Canada, but I also believe in a dictatorship in China because that is how things can function there.

So what you are saying is that you are a fraud.  You live in Canada, and enjoy democracy, and feel you are qualified to participate in the usage of democracy.  However, the rest of the 1.3 BILLION Mainland Chinese will not allow democracy to work?  Give me a break, you seriously need to reconsider your stance before you further advocate your views.

Personally, I believe China is not ready for full-democracy yet.  However, I believe local elections can be held in the cities that have opened to capitalism by 2010, replacing the cities' local Communist Congresses with a elected one.  If it works, continue to spread that.  I don't think Chinese people necessarily needs or even wants Democracy like it is experienced in the U.S.  However, localized democracy can somewhat alleviate the local corruption that takes place.  Power can still be held nationally in Beijing.  When China is fully capitalized (and I mean fully as in everyone has a car and not just two farmers in all of China), then the country might be ready for full-fledged democracy.

The Three gorges dam is unfortunately a necessary requirement to meet China's massive energy needs. One could make the same argument about the Hoover Dam, and whether it was worth the effort, cost to build, had it not been for the Hoover Dam, Los Angeles and most of South California's vast economic growth would not have been possible. FYI the Three Gorges Dam project met with open disapproval in the National People's Congress in Beijing where officials openly opposed it and argued against it despite the backing of the Central Committee and politibureau. Yet oddly those officials who were against it still are in their official positions today, despite the dictatorial power of the head of state.

What are you talking about now?  If it was needed, why the arguments?

First of all, China does not need the power provided by the Three Gorges Dam.  It does not generate as much power as just 1 nuclear power plant.

Secondly, experts and environmentalists favored multiple dams throughout Yangtze to provide MORE POWER than just having one large dam, while maintaining much of the beauty of Three Gorges, which is a national landmark for all Chinese.

Thirdly, it was widely known that Li Peng wanted to build the dam for 2 reasons.

a) China would have the world's largest dam.

Li Peng would be known as the advocate for the world's largest dam.

Everybody knows this, so don't argue it.

Falun Gong followers made the mistake of opposing the government. They should have learnt their lessons from Tienanamen square, that the Communist Party of China will not tolerate any insurgence of insurrection at all. They made that stance clear with tragic circumstances but the CCP will not hesitate to use it again if the safety and stability of the state is in question. As a Chinese I understand this. In China, it is China that comes first, not the will of individuals. China's safety and integrity itself has to be protected at all costs. Of course Falun Gong itself is entirely harmless but when the group and supporters organize for a political movement against the central government, I shake my head. They got what was coming when they stepped against the wind and this is the tragic result.

The Falun Gong practitioners are crazy, I agree.  However, I fail to see how the have openly opposed the Communists.  Obviously, the mandate that allows a person or a small group of people to rule a large population is based on the ability for the ruling to face no oppositional power.  Still, I do not see how the Falun Gong have opposed the Communists.

The Communists cracked down on the Falun Gong just like they cracked down on Chrisitian Missionaries, for the period leading up to the past decade, because the believe religion would decay the power of the totalitarian government.  In the history of totalitarian governments, religion has posed threats to power.  HOWEVER, religion has been used as a tool for the government many, many times more than it has been used against.  If the Communists do not see this, they will still end up with a population fractured by multiple religions and beliefs, and still will not be able to control the faiths of the people.

[Sir Rols]

The Olympics does not promote democracy. The Olympics promotes peaceful competition and fair play amongst nations throughout the world by cooperative competition in sports and athletics.

Okay, so name one Olympic Summer Games host country that does not have some form of democratic government.

I won't buy into the rest of the debate, but on this one point, what about:

Berlin 1936

Moscow 1980