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I totaly agree and what you so nicely describe is another proof of that...those hatreds and aminosities are products of the politicians and the reality is that if you check in depth, simple people, although they have differences,they dont hate each other and they dont like wars..politicians like them and try hardly to make them happen...

Greece and Turkeys relationship has greatly improved and I am certain it is a testament to Eurovision.

Although I must say, I think Ukraine was the real winner. I know it sits better with a lot of people that Serbia won, but if you look at the voting, I think Ukraine was the winner. Balkan Mafia awarded the following to Ukraine;

BiH/Cro/FYR/Mon/Slo/Ser; 5,5,2,2,3,4 = 21/72 (average of 3.5 points, nearly half of the Ukraine's contest average)

but to Serbia they awarded;

BiH/Cro/FYR/Mon/Slo; 12,12,12,12,12 = 60/60 (double Serbia's contest average)

Furthermore, Serbia's Standard Deviation was much higher than Ukraine's (Turkey's was actually the highest) suggesting that the voting was significantly more uneven.

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Let's say that the video is right...so how can someone explain the last year's result?Am i wrong or Finland was the winner??

I can see the point, but firstly, I don't consider Greece part of that eastern conspiracy - we get a guranteed 12 from Cyprus and possibly high points from Bulgaria (the reason I say possibly is because Bulgaria has only been competing for 2 or 3 years when Greece has had strong entries). Other than that, nothing is guaranteed...

Secondly, not sure if you noticed but this guy added Poland, Austria, Czech Republic etc to illustrate the point even though they will be competing in the semi next year...

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Hey you Greeks, why are you denying the reality? Apart from Cyprus and Bulgaria nothing is guaranteed? What? The Greek entry got really bad critics here in Germany. Boring, every year the same, a Singer in a pajama ... I guess 90% of the German vote for Greece came from the Greeks in Germany. The same can be said for Turkey, but at least TG is not denying it!

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Of course Greece got the 10 points because of the Greeks living in Germany! (btw Greece earned 71 points from 'western' nations, and nations that Greece doesn't have any special relation.

But thereisn't a way when we can measure art. Something that I like it, goether hates it and viceversa. It's also about personal taste.

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Of course Greece got the 10 points because of the Greeks living in Germany! (btw Greece earned 71 points from 'western' nations, and nations that Greece doesn't have any special relation.

But thereisn't a way when we can measure art. Something that I like it, goether hates it and viceversa. It's also about personal taste.

Hold on a minute here.... How many Greeks do you think there are in Germany?? (because in Greece there are only 11 million).. So are you trying to tell me that these millions of Greeks living in Germany thought that Sarbel was better than say Anna Vissi (8pts) or Sakis Rouvas (7pts) - sorry Germany, there may be Greeks in Germany, but theres not that many. For some reason (unbeknownst to me) you liked him.....

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Hold on a minute here.... How many Greeks do you think there are in Germany?? (because in Greece there are only 11 million).. So are you trying to tell me that these millions of Greeks living in Germany thought that Sarbel was better than say Anna Vissi (8pts) or Sakis Rouvas (7pts) - sorry Germany, there may be Greeks in Germany, but theres not that many. For some reason (unbeknownst to me) you liked him.....

And for the record, in Germany, Greek diaspora number 300,000 as opposed to the nearly 3 million Turks.. My, what busy fingers they must have....

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When I get an answer from the NDR - I will let you know - I#m really looking forward to it - here in Germany started a discussion about the fiddling of the East European Countries and the diaspora voting of the immigrants of East Europe in West Europe - I would be very astonished if the EBU won't change the voting rules - and I believe 2009 will be too late - they have to do it now...

Are you honestly expecting an answer back? :blink:

If they're going to reply back then it'll be the same template they would have delivered to other dissapointed fans that bothered to send e-mail asking for some sort of change that really is out of their control.

Let's face it, the EBU doesn't give a rat's ass about what song wins. There's an obvious money spin to using televoting that'll surely generate hell of a lot of cash as opposed to using jury alone. So I highly doubt that Svante or the EBU executive members are giung to be reviewing the voting system for the next year (or years for that matter) either.

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This political voting is wierd. Serbia has butchered the population of many of its neighbours in the last decade and they still vote for it en mass!? Why can't Germany get a break after 60 years?

The solution is to have some sort of weighting, but I can't rationalise how that would work. Would it mean that Germany would never win because it would never get the benefit of its weighting as a large population. It could actually work against the interests of the big 4, Poland and Russia if the weighting were worked out by the population of individual countries.

I feel sorry for the Netherlands....I mean they haven't been in the competition for ages and they used to be a major force in Eurovision. Perhaps the answer is to have Regional semi finals where the West would be given a guaranteed number of slots according to the size of the population. The Medeteranian (Southern) area could have a semi final, perhaps the Scandinavian block and the Eastern Block. However, only the coutries competing in the final could vote. I think this could add a new dimension to the whole contest...it would force every country to take part in a semi final. Isn't this how the Football World Cup works....each continent has a guranteed number of places in the final which the constituent countries have to compete for? It would mean that the Big 4 would have to risk being knocked out and I'm not sure how advertisers would feel about loosing a potential TV audience of 82 million (Germany) or 60 million (UK)....perhaps EBU would have to get gurantees from the Big 4 that they would still show it regardless of whether they were competing in the final or not.

I don't see the BBC pulling out of Eurovision because it seen as more of a freak show than an MTV music awards style event. As such people really don't give a toss about winning it anymore...hence Scooch. For Brits its sort of like watching a 3 hour long car crash....you feel horrified at what you see, yet it is strangly compelling. It really only serves to make people rather bemused about how we can be part of this continent of weirdness. Scooch was kind of like an experiment where we put a load of pink fluffy things into a tank of pirannahs to see if they would bite.....which they obvioulsy didn't. The French seem to have given up on it years ago and just send avant garde euro-babble pop. Poor Germany....this contest just confirms all their worst fears about atitudes towards them. Spain just keep plugging away with decent songs and not so much as a "douze points" from anyone.

Edited by Ripley
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I think the NDR is very aware of the situation - otherwise it wouldn't try to convince its audience that the influence of the East European Countries is not so great how it is thought:

Scoreboard (Western countries only)

... but this table doesn't consider "diaspora voting"...

by the way I have just sent an e-mail again to the NDR to challenge the value of this table...

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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by the way I have just sent an e-mail again to the NDR to challenge the value of this table...

LOL - well let us know if they send you a reply.

Honestly speaking, if Germany wants to get a good result, then you guys have got to work your way around this system and twist it to your own benefit. How so? Send another German-Turk AGAIN. You guys have already done this back in 1999 and managed to earn yourself a respected 3rd position that has yet to be matched. Believe me, it'll work out to your own benefit as it has already proven to be successful in the past. In fact, Turkey's chances might be "damaged" to some degree if another ethnic Turk is competing on behalf of another country.

Germany isn't in a shortage of any German-Turkish artists either. I mean there is Tarkan, Rafet El Roman, Aylin Aslım, Atiye Deniz, Bahar (who is a member of Monrose) and many others that can be selected from using this idea.

Some of you might this that this is really absurd; however, if the EBU is unwilling to alter its voting procedure then twist the game to your own benefit and you'll see success happening. I'm being absolutely realsitic here. ;)

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Oh - I found this funny which you guys might also find it funny (yet sad at the same time) also. :lol:

eurovotes2.jpg

Edited by Turkish Guy
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LOL - well let us know if they send you a reply.

Honestly speaking, if Germany wants to get a good result, then you guys have got to work your way around this system and twist it to your own benefit. How so? Send another German-Turk AGAIN. You guys have already done this back in 1999 and managed to earn yourself a respected 3rd position that has yet to be matched. Believe me, it'll work out to your own benefit as it has already proven to be successful in the past. In fact, Turkey's chances might be "damaged" to some degree if another ethnic Turk is competing on behalf of another country.

Germany isn't in a shortage of any German-Turkish artists either. I mean there is Tarkan, Rafet El Roman, Aylin Aslım, Atiye Deniz, Bahar (who is a member of Monrose) and many others that can be selected from using this idea.

Some of you might this that this is really absurd; however, if the EBU is unwilling to alter its voting procedure then twist the game to your own benefit and you'll see success happening. I'm being absolutely realsitic here. ;)

Do you really believe this is the solution TG?

I dont see how the answer to this is for Western Europe to play the same cheating game. I for one would not be happy for the UK to start awarding 12 points to Ireland every year regardless of the song. I would rather have the UK come last each year than do that.

The ONLY answer is for Western Europe to stand up and be counted. Any reasonable person can see that the ESC needs drastic reform. I don't blame you from seeing things slightly differently because it does not affect Turkey in the same way.

To be honest, I have been looking for a real backlash from Western Europe since the contest ended and it has not materialised. I predict that no countries will withdraw for next year. However, in the end the only loosers in this will be the performers. I can see the ESC becoming less appealing for Western European countries to win in the future. The magic of actually winning the contest will be lost and it will be meanless(sone of you may think that time passed long ago anyway).

The only way that I can voice my opposition to wards a contest that I used to adore, would be to complain to the BBC and refuse to watch next year. I have done one half of this already and I will certainly be doing the latter next year.

This is not about "sour grapes". I can enjoy the contest even when the UK comes last...that is not the point. My only problem with how this contest has progressed has always been over the issue of being fair. We are all used to a few countries voting for each other each year and that was disappointing. However, when you have almost every country doing it then it becomes a real problem and it no longer remains competitive. A real shame.

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And the answer from EBU

from esctoday.com

Svante Stockselius refuses all criticism

Since the semi-final gave the result that no Western European country qualified, several media have been accusing the East European countries of voting for each other, but according to Svante Stockselius this is actually wrong as the biggest problem with neighbour voting takes place in Scandinavia!

In an interview with Swedish aftonbladet.se Svante says: "Yes, it is true that neighbouring countries seem to vote for each other, but this is mostly seen in Scandinavia. This is the region where it is most obvious". The Scandinavians wonder though as the actual semi final voting tells a different story. Denmark awarded Norway with 7 points while Norway returned 4 points to Denmark. The third Scandinavian country, Sweden, gave 6 points to Norway and 4 points to Denmark. In the final, where Sweden was the only Scandinavian country competing, Denmark and Norway did indeed both award Sweden with the maximum 12 points, but they claim this is no different to Cyprus giving 12 points to Greece and Serbia getting 12 points from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, FYR Macedonia, Montenegro and Slovenia.

It is also worth noticing that DR, the Danish broadcaster, after the result of the semi-final on their website encouraged all the Danes to vote for Sweden in the final.

In the semi-final Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Latvia and United Kingdom all awarded Denmark with higher points than Norway and Sweden did. Denmark finished 19th with 45 points while Norway got 3 more points and finished 18th out of 28 participating countries.

In the interview with Aftonbladet.se Svante Stockselius also denies that juries would have led to another result: "We have a jury group in each country as a back up if technical problems should occur. When we previously compared their result to the public voting we see that the voting from the jury matches with the televoting".

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In the interview with Aftonbladet.se Svante Stockselius also denies that juries would have led to another result: "We have a jury group in each country as a back up if technical problems should occur. When we previously compared their result to the public voting we see that the voting from the jury matches with the televoting".

... that's very interesting - I would like to see the jury-votings of all countries....

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