Montenegrian Referendum for Independence

[cesco_82]

Nobody said yet Welcome back Montenegro  

welcome from me too!!!  :laugh:

[Cordelia18]

European Union had said they opposed any other partition of ex-Yug? It's great they can make their decisions so well respected...

Montenegro...lol..This is becoming so ridiculous it's almost funny. Well, although there is no significant or obvious ethnical and cultural difference between Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, Slovenia and Co that could justify any of the independance of these small states...

Welcome, Montenegro

[Faster]

European Union had said they opposed any other partition of ex-Yug? It's great they can make their decisions so well respected...

Montenegro...lol..This is becoming so ridiculous it's almost funny. Well, although there is no significant or obvious ethnical and cultural difference between Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, Slovenia and Co that could justify any of the independance of these small states...

Welcome, Montenegro

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[Cordelia18]

What are you talking about? As a Croatian your opinion is biased and can't even be taken into account in this kind of matter. We all know your hate towards Serbia. Ask your ancestors Oustachis that were Hitler's best friends in the Balkan region about the millions of Jews, Serbians, and resistants they killed during world war II, and then come and tell us if the Serbians are murderers who want power...Jasenovac, does that ring a bell, dear?

As for Montenegro, I suggest that all current Balkan state split in 2 again so that we'll have 12 instead of 6 states, and that we hold a referendum in these 12 states next year to know if the minorities there also want their own states within the 12 states....Absurd.

[Faster]

What are you talking about? As a Croatian your opinion is biased and can't even be taken into account in this kind of matter. We all know your hate towards Serbia. Ask your ancestors Oustachis that were Hitler's best friends in the Balkan region about the millions of Jews, Serbians, and resistants they killed during world war II, and then come and tell us if the Serbians are murderers who want power...Jasenovac, does that ring a bell, dear?

As for Montenegro, I suggest that all current Balkan state split in 2 again so that we'll have 12 instead of 6 states, and that we hold a referendum in these 12 states next year to know if the minorities there also want their own states within the 12 states....Absurd.

I am not a Croat, I am a Croatian sympathizer. I am German, Austrian, English and Scottish with a bit of Roma.

I am not getting into this agrument with you again.

On to another note, I saw an interesting comment from a person from the Faroe Islands stating that there is a push for independence from Denmark. Its an interesting thought. They are anger that Denmark limits foreign investment and travel to the Islands.

[Cordelia18]

I dont want to argue either, but don't start it by saying i'm ignorant then...

So you're not Croat? You're awfully suspiscious Faster...In the topic called "Milosevic found dead" during the discussion we had you said you had Croat roots. Now youre stating you're just a Croat sympathizer...Isnt it time to give up lying Faster?? You're 18, you shouldn't behave like a child anymore...

Anyway the only interest Montenegro could have is No Name...The leading member, the cute one, not the others of course. ::

[bernard]

I dont want to argue either, but don't start it by saying i'm ignorant then...

So you're not Croat? You're awfully suspiscious Faster...In the topic called "Milosevic found dead" during the discussion we had you said you had Croat roots. Now youre stating you're just a Croat sympathizer...Isnt it time to give up lying Faster?? You're 18, you shouldn't behave like a child anymore...

Anyway the only interest Montenegro could have is No Name...The leading member, the cute one, not the others of course. ::

I do remember that Faster stated that he had Croat ancestry in the Milosevic thread.

[bernard]

Also, with the independence of Monténégro now, talks about Kosovo that continue, serbs of Serbia will feel oppressed and not understand at all, they will not understand those "win-lose" deals, it can make Bosnia and Herzegovina in fire, why the Republika Srpska would not be able to ask a referendum either...

Well, you have to remember that in the Manichean world of ethnic nationalism advocates, Wikipedia enthusiasts and liberal middle class bores (who choose a different 'persecuted ethnicity of the week' every Sunday), Serbs are "OMG TEH EVULZZ!!!!11111" so they have less rights than Kosovars, Montenegrins, or whatever ethnic group it is fashionable to support these days.

[bernard]

My opinions? I am generally opposed to the break up of nations unless there is a clear case of oppression which only independence will rectify (such as India under the British). Montenegro was clearly not being oppressed by Serbia because it was pretty much a de facto independent state anyway.

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

[Guardian]

***BREAKING NEWS***

Montenegro chooses Independence!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5003220.stm

Well, at this point, it could be "contested" and we all know that means in both sides. It will be interesting on how it will be perceived both inside the current nation of S&M and outside in the international community in the days to come.

[Mekky]

My opinions? I am generally opposed to the break up of nations unless there is a clear case of oppression which only independence will rectify (such as India under the British). Montenegro was clearly not being oppressed by Serbia because it was pretty much a de facto independent state anyway.

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

You are right, serbs should vote, but let face it, they would all vote for the union like serbs of montenegro did... It would not put only serbia/montenegro and maybe bosnia in fire, but whole balkans ! ...

I hope one day, they will be able to create a sort of union to help eachothers inside European Union to be more listened by big countries, 'cause it would not be a truth to say that those countries are differents, they are slavics, they share a common history since ottomans and before (montenegrins have nearly the same language, culture, religion that serbs...).

[Faster]

So it’s official, the final results were 55.4% "Yes" 44.6% "No".

So another nation is ticked off the list of potential new European nations. The list is growing ever shorter with Transdniestra, Nagorno Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the Faroe Islands.

Not to mention the list grows shorter in the world with Somaliland, Taiwan, Tamalstan, Aceh, and Kurdistan.

[cesco_82]

My opinions? I am generally opposed to the break up of nations unless there is a clear case of oppression which only independence will rectify (such as India under the British). Montenegro was clearly not being oppressed by Serbia because it was pretty much a de facto independent state anyway.

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

You are right, serbs should vote, but let face it, they would all vote for the union like serbs of montenegro did... It would not put only serbia/montenegro and maybe bosnia in fire, but whole balkans ! ...

I hope one day, they will be able to create a sort of union to help eachothers inside European Union to be more listened by big countries, 'cause it would not be a truth to say that those countries are differents, they are slavics, they share a common history since ottomans and before (montenegrins have nearly the same language, culture, religion that serbs...).

totally agree sith the first part...i mean...can you imagine:

1)Montenegro says they want independence

+

2)Serbia says they wanna stay with Montenegro

=

Stuckness & maybe something more...ehm...aggressive! Which vote should be taken as the stronger?  :help:

I'm not an antropologue (is this the word in english for those who study races and groups of the humans? I obviously translated that in a odd way from italian eheheh) but being slavic is not a reason for being in the same State. Or the entire Balcan region + half eastern europe + Russia should be one state...Or Italy, Spain, France and Portugal should be one State too...!

[Faster]

That maps a little wrong, because much of western Poland is ethnicly German land, where true Polish land lies in Ukraine and Belarus. Thanks to the Red Army we have the map we do now.

[Mekky]

Your map is good, they are regrouped inside "serbo-croatian", another proof that they are close, only macedonians and slovenians seem apart ! ...

[Mainad]

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

So you are saying that if Montenegrins want to separate from Serbia (which apparently they do) but Serbians don't want to separate from Montenegro,then only the views of the Serbians should be taken into account and not those of the Montenegrins?

Would you really be happy to say to the people of Montenegro,"Tough,the Serbs don't agree with you,so you will just have to respect THEIR wishes and sod whatever you want!". I submit that this view is a tad unrealistic!

If they want to preserve the union,the the Serbs should be asking themselves WHY the Montenegrins want to separate and be doing their level best to persuade them otherwise.

They surely don't want to be marching down the road to war yet again in order to put their point of view across,do they!!

The Serbs don't seem to have a very good track record of persuading the other ethnic groups to stay in political union with them,do they? They should be asking themselves,"Why?" instead of screaming and sulking about it and if they can't manage to persuade their close kin in Montenegro,what chance have they got with the Albanians in Kosovo??

Methinks it is time for the Serbs to step back,take a good,long look at themselves and try some quiet reflection for a change!

[cesco_82]

Your map is good, they are regrouped inside "serbo-croatian", another proof that they are close, only macedonians and slovenians seem apart ! ...

you totally missed the point!!!!  :help:

[cesco_82]

That maps a little wrong, because much of western Poland is ethnicly German land, where true Polish land lies in Ukraine and Belarus. Thanks to the Red Army we have the map we do now.

that was a linguistic map not a hetnic one.

btw...send ur complains to wikipedia...  LOL ihihihi

[Mikel]

What are you talking about Spain?  ??? We are a country since 1492... when Isabella I and Ferdinand II (the Catholic Queen and King) conquered the muslim Kingdom of Granada and discovered America.

What you say is Catalonia was the Crown of ARAGON... Catalonia didn't exist.

Euskalherria is an invented country...   We can play to the game of invent countries if you want... Before Spain there were FOUR kingdoms: Castille, ARAGON, Granada and NAVARRE. The Basque Country was part of Castille nearly the first years of the Castillian kingdom... in fact, Navarre was conquered in 1512 from San Sebastian.

PS. The Basques were people who lived in the NAVARRAN mountains.

[bernard]

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

So you are saying that if Montenegrins want to separate from Serbia (which apparently they do) but Serbians don't want to separate from Montenegro,then only the views of the Serbians should be taken into account and not those of the Montenegrins?

Would you really be happy to say to the people of Montenegro,"Tough,the Serbs don't agree with you,so you will just have to respect THEIR wishes and sod whatever you want!". I submit that this view is a tad unrealistic!

If they want to preserve the union,the the Serbs should be asking themselves WHY the Montenegrins want to separate and be doing their level best to persuade them otherwise.

They surely don't want to be marching down the road to war yet again in order to put their point of view across,do they!!

The Serbs don't seem to have a very good track record of persuading the other ethnic groups to stay in political union with them,do they? They should be asking themselves,"Why?" instead of screaming and sulking about it and if they can't manage to persuade their close kin in Montenegro,what chance have they got with the Albanians in Kosovo??

Methinks it is time for the Serbs to step back,take a good,long look at themselves and try some quiet reflection for a change!

Let me put it another way. If you want to destroy a country, you had better get the consent of all the people in the country. You are destroying the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Don't the people of Serbia have a right to say whether or not they want their country (the State Union) to be destroyed?

Anyway, according to international law, a region of a country cannot unilaterally separate. For instance, in the UK, only Parliament can give permission for part of the country to be set free. The Irish Free State was only created with the consent on Parliament, and by extension, by the consent of the British people.

Why is Northern Ireland still a part of the Union? After all, the majority of people in mainland Britain want to end the Union with Northern Ireland. However, the majority of the people of NI wish to maintain the Union. I've got no problems with that.

[Mikel]

I consider the territorial integrity of a state to be sacrosanct, and it should only be violated under extreme circumstances. Also, people forget that this was a union of two states - Serbia and Montenegro. Why didn't anyone ask the Serbs whether they want to stay attached to Montenegro? The State Union was their country as well, you know, and should have been dissolved only with the consent of both parties.

Until the Serbs agree that they also want out of the union, I will consider Montenegro to be a renegade state.

So you are saying that if Montenegrins want to separate from Serbia (which apparently they do) but Serbians don't want to separate from Montenegro,then only the views of the Serbians should be taken into account and not those of the Montenegrins?

Would you really be happy to say to the people of Montenegro,"Tough,the Serbs don't agree with you,so you will just have to respect THEIR wishes and sod whatever you want!". I submit that this view is a tad unrealistic!

If they want to preserve the union,the the Serbs should be asking themselves WHY the Montenegrins want to separate and be doing their level best to persuade them otherwise.

They surely don't want to be marching down the road to war yet again in order to put their point of view across,do they!!

The Serbs don't seem to have a very good track record of persuading the other ethnic groups to stay in political union with them,do they? They should be asking themselves,"Why?" instead of screaming and sulking about it and if they can't manage to persuade their close kin in Montenegro,what chance have they got with the Albanians in Kosovo??

Methinks it is time for the Serbs to step back,take a good,long look at themselves and try some quiet reflection for a change!

Let me put it another way. If you want to destroy a country, you had better get the consent of all the people in the country. You are destroying the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Don't the people of Serbia have a right to say whether or not they want their country (the State Union) to be destroyed?

Anyway, according to international law, a region of a country cannot unilaterally separate. For instance, in the UK, only Parliament can give permission for part of the country to be set free. The Irish Free State was only created with the consent on Parliament, and by extension, by the consent of the British people.

Why is Northern Ireland still a part of the Union? After all, the majority of people in mainland Britain want to end the Union with Northern Ireland. However, the majority of the people of NI wish to maintain the Union. I've got no problems with that.

Then if France wants to be united with Spain they will be able to vote? All the people can vote in everything they want? NO!!! Serbia and Montenegro was a provisional country created by the EU to end the desintegration of Yugoslavia... you CAN'T say people to stay in a provisional-invented thing they don't want...

[Faster]

What are you talking about Spain?  ??? We are a country since 1492... when Isabella I and Ferdinand II (the Catholic Queen and King) conquered the muslim Kingdom of Granada and discovered America.

What you say is Catalonia was the Crown of ARAGON... Catalonia didn't exist.

Euskalherria is an invented country...   We can play to the game of invent countries if you want... Before Spain there were FOUR kingdoms: Castille, ARAGON, Granada and NAVARRE. The Basque Country was part of Castille nearly the first years of the Castillian kingdom... in fact, Navarre was conquered in 1512 from San Sebastian.

PS. The Basques were people who lived in the NAVARRAN mountains.

Mikel you are right that Euskal Herria has never been a "country" in its true definition, but Euskal Herria is a "nation". I am not sure what it is like in Spanish, but in English country and nation mean two different things, but are out confused as one, similar to patriotism and nationalism. Euskal Herria is a nation, because a nation is in reference only to the people. There is a nation of Basque, but not a country.

I have to admitte that the Spanish government treat the Basque a lot better then the French, literacy in the Basque language is far higher in Spain then it is in France because Spain funds Basque cultural programs and has Basque culture intrigrated in their education. Whereas France makes little to no effort in maintain and promoting Basque culture, language and tradition. Thankful most of Euskal Herria is in Spain, so the majority of Basque have the ability to gain the advantages that the Spanish government allows them. With ETA stepping aside hopefully the Spanish government and the nation of Euskal Herria can come together to form an agreement similar to what is in place with Serbia and Vojvodina to have the area as a antonomus region that is self-governing. I think Euskal Herria, Catalonia and Spain proper would be better off in a situation like Belgium then in three seperate countries since history is on the side of them being together, even if there is no real relation between the Basque and the Spanish.

[Mikel]

What are you talking about Spain?  ??? We are a country since 1492... when Isabella I and Ferdinand II (the Catholic Queen and King) conquered the muslim Kingdom of Granada and discovered America.

What you say is Catalonia was the Crown of ARAGON... Catalonia didn't exist.

Euskalherria is an invented country...   We can play to the game of invent countries if you want... Before Spain there were FOUR kingdoms: Castille, ARAGON, Granada and NAVARRE. The Basque Country was part of Castille nearly the first years of the Castillian kingdom... in fact, Navarre was conquered in 1512 from San Sebastian.

PS. The Basques were people who lived in the NAVARRAN mountains.

Mikel you are right that Euskal Herria has never been a "country" in its true definition, but Euskal Herria is a "nation". I am not sure what it is like in Spanish, but in English country and nation mean two different things, but are out confused as one, similar to patriotism and nationalism. Euskal Herria is a nation, because a nation is in reference only to the people. There is a nation of Basque, but not a country.

I have to admitte that the Spanish government treat the Basque a lot better then the French, literacy in the Basque language is far higher in Spain then it is in France because Spain funds Basque cultural programs and has Basque culture intrigrated in their education. Whereas France makes little to no effort in maintain and promoting Basque culture, language and tradition. Thankful most of Euskal Herria is in Spain, so the majority of Basque have the ability to gain the advantages that the Spanish government allows them. With ETA stepping aside hopefully the Spanish government and the nation of Euskal Herria can come together to form an agreement similar to what is in place with Serbia and Vojvodina to have the area as a antonomus region that is self-governing. I think Euskal Herria, Catalonia and Spain proper would be better off in a situation like Belgium then in three seperate countries since history is on the side of them being together, even if there is no real relation between the Basque and the Spanish.

The worst ETA terrorists are French  :laughlong: And half of the ETA terrorists are in French jails :oops:

In fact, do you think that we (in wich group I am included) are other race or something like that?

If the Basques think they're a nation, then Galicia is also a nation, because Galicia WAS A REAL KINGDOM IN THE MIDDLE AGES, the Basque Contry WASN'T. The same goes for Catalonia and Aragon.

PS. The Basque Country will never be independent, the people there don't like it... In fact, the PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) don't like it, too. They are in the Government now... :wwww:

[Cordelia18]

Yes and it's a good thing we took care of the matter because the Spanish police was so useless and incompetent that if we hadn't been there Spain would still have an attack per week and thousands of deaths to deal with...

[Faster]

Mikel you still don't understand the difference between nation and country in the English language. Just because Euskal Herria has never existed as a seperate country or kingdom, does not mean that it is not a nation. Nation is in reference to a group of people that share a common ethnic orgin, ancestory, language and culture, wheras a country is a political region based on a governmental system.