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Draft ordinance for Sapporo 2030 Olympic bid referendum expected to be rejected in Monday City Assembly vote


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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

Oooookay… so, in other words, private surveys are good, public votes are bad. Hmmmmm…. Democracy sucks, eh?

 

That’s up to you mate.  Your the one asking the question.

If you think referendums are the way to get a candidature through to a successful host vote, then I wouldn’t give up my day job to become an Olympic bidding adviser if I was you.

 

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3 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

It’s to do with satisfying the IOC that the candidature enjoys public support. 

Referendums have proven fatal to many bids as we all know. 

Both the elected 2026 and 2032 hosts did not go to a public vote and instead satisfied the IOC through opinion polls instead.

Those here who want to hold a referendum, can go right ahead and  promote each candidature to hold one

…. If they want to see that bid blown out of the water.

Yes, referendums have killed some bids.  I know this may be hard to believe, but that's a good thing.  If a bid can't survive a referendum, then maybe that city shouldn't be bidding for the Olympics.  And again, in case you forgot someone who is in favor of them in order to more properly and effectively screen candidates.. Coates to Bid Cities: Vote, Then We'll Talk

1 hour ago, AustralianFan said:

That’s up to you mate.  Your the one asking the question.

If you think referendums are the way to get a candidature through to a successful host vote, then I wouldn’t give up my day job to become an Olympic bidding adviser if I was you.

Whose interests are you advocating for here?  Is it the IOC or the cities who are bidding and their citizens who should have a stronger voice than a straw poll that may or may not represent the cities' will.  The Sapporo poll says 52 percent are in favor and you think that's satisfactory?  Hope you're not looking to advise cities if you're going to leave it at that and not dig any further.  You know what city had similar support?  Boston when they were bidding for the 2024 Olympics and had been selected as the USOC's bid candidate over Los Angeles.  Easy to forget that was a thing.  Then they ran more surveys and found out that support levels were dropped.  So the USOC pulled the plug and wisely went to Los Angeles to put them forward.

Going off of 1 poll showing public support is not enough, especially when that support level is barely over 50%.  What happens if the IOC awards Sapporo the 2030 games and support level drops.  Would you still argue that awarding them an Olympics was a "success" because the bid wasn't given an opportunity to fail?  That goes directly to Rols' point about accountability.  And if the IOC continues down that path, it may not be long before their already shaky reputation takes another hit.

The goal should be to find the right candidate cities/countries.  Not to lower the standards by which to elect those cities and make it possible for them to skate through without the necessarily public scrutiny.  Because when that happens, the wrong city or country could slip through.  Ask FIFA how that's working out for them where we're about to have a November/December World Cup in Qatar

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7 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Oooookay… so, in other words, private surveys are good, public votes are bad. Hmmmmm…. Democracy sucks, eh?

 

As a democracy lover, no, as an olympics fan, yes. Again, olympics are "discreet" propaganda for the host country, so of couse people wouldnt wanna spend billions in a fortnight event, au contraire of countries like russia, china or the US, where the reputation of the country to the world is the 1st priority. So if the only way we can get olympics in free countries is through private surveys, let them be. Is strange that people in this site support the blown off of the bids, while that is exactly what would represent the end of the olympics as we know them.

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5 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Yes, referendums have killed some bids.  I know this may be hard to believe, but that's a good thing.  If a bid can't survive a referendum, then maybe that city shouldn't be bidding for the Olympics.  And again, in case you forgot someone who is in favor of them in order to more properly and effectively screen candidates.. Coates to Bid Cities: Vote, Then We'll Talk

Whose interests are you advocating for here?  Is it the IOC or the cities who are bidding and their citizens who should have a stronger voice than a straw poll that may or may not represent the cities' will.  The Sapporo poll says 52 percent are in favor and you think that's satisfactory?  Hope you're not looking to advise cities if you're going to leave it at that and not dig any further.  You know what city had similar support?  Boston when they were bidding for the 2024 Olympics and had been selected as the USOC's bid candidate over Los Angeles.  Easy to forget that was a thing.  Then they ran more surveys and found out that support levels were dropped.  So the USOC pulled the plug and wisely went to Los Angeles to put them forward.

Going off of 1 poll showing public support is not enough, especially when that support level is barely over 50%.  What happens if the IOC awards Sapporo the 2030 games and support level drops.  Would you still argue that awarding them an Olympics was a "success" because the bid wasn't given an opportunity to fail?  That goes directly to Rols' point about accountability.  And if the IOC continues down that path, it may not be long before their already shaky reputation takes another hit.

The goal should be to find the right candidate cities/countries.  Not to lower the standards by which to elect those cities and make it possible for them to skate through without the necessarily public scrutiny.  Because when that happens, the wrong city or country could slip through.  Ask FIFA how that's working out for them where we're about to have a November/December World Cup in Qatar

  • Milano-Cortina was elected in 2019 as the 2026 Winter Games host on the back of being able to demonstrate majority public support without holding a referendum or public vote. 
  • Brisbane was elected in 2021 as the 2032 Summer Games host on the back of being able to demonstrate majority public support without holding a referendum or public vote. 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris_Mex said:

As a democracy lover, no, as an olympics fan, yes. Again, olympics are "discreet" propaganda for the host country, so of couse people wouldnt wanna spend billions in a fortnight event, au contraire of countries like russia, china or the US, where the reputation of the country to the world is the 1st priority. So if the only way we can get olympics in free countries is through private surveys, let them be. Is strange that people in this site support the blown off of the bids, while that is exactly what would represent the end of the olympics as we know them.

Exactly, very true.

Sapporo too recognises this reality and thank goodness enough of the city councillors were able to stop the referendum.

Soon, no doubt, we will see it’s alternative plans to measure public support …. but the clock is ticking.

 

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Well, if you need to ignore the wants of the people to have the Olympics, maybe we shouldnt have Olympics at all as much i love them.

It´s their games. Should be their call whenever they want it or not.

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27 minutes ago, Guilga said:

Well, if you need to ignore the wants of the people to have the Olympics, maybe we shouldnt have Olympics at all as much i love them.

It´s their games. Should be their call whenever they want it or not.

That’s entirely up to that city if they want to hold a referendum or public opinion poll.

If they hold a referendum, they’re likely going to blow up the whole bid.  But that’s their choice if they want to do that or not.

If they go instead for opinion polls then they have a chance to demonstrate public support for the bid to the IOC.

But that’s that city’s choice too.

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3 hours ago, Guilga said:

Well, if you need to ignore the wants of the people to have the Olympics, maybe we shouldnt have Olympics at all as much i love them.

It´s their games. Should be their call whenever they want it or not.

This ^^^

understand AF, that you're asking the people of a city to share their city and infrastructure for two months (and maybe even more, with test events among other things needing to take place). While many are happy to take part, not everyone wants to be mildly inconvenienced (at best) for such a long period of time. If the majority of a city's population doesn't want to be in that situation, then they shouldn't be forced to go with it.

Side note, weren't the Japanese hostile to Bach and the IOC in the lead up to 2021? And now they suddenly accept another Olympics? Seems a bit sus to me tbh... But if Sapporo does indeed have the numbers they claim to have, then what better way to prove it than by organizing a referendum :D

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2 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

That’s entirely up to that city if they want to hold a referendum or public opinion poll.

If they hold a referendum, they’re likely going to blow up the whole bid.  But that’s their choice if they want to do that or not.

If they go instead for opinion polls then they have a chance to demonstrate public support for the bid to the IOC.

But that’s that city’s choice too.

When you refer to "that city," whose interests are you referring to?  Is it the leadership and the business/corporate entities of the city?  Or the citizens who live there?  That's obviously a rhetorical question, since we all know the answer.

This is an Olympics bidding site, so obviously we're going to advocate for whatever leads to a more favorable outcome for the IOC.  That shouldn't come at the expense of the citizens who live in those cities though.  And if a bid blows up because the people of the city don't want it or because the bid committee isn't serving their interests (again, ask Boston how that worked out for them), we should be encouraging that, not discouraging that.

Opinion polls are not what the IOC should be basing these decisions on.  If that's the road they're going down, there's going to come a point where it's going to blow up in their face.  They'll have no one to blame but themselves.

7 hours ago, Chris_Mex said:

As a democracy lover, no, as an olympics fan, yes. Again, olympics are "discreet" propaganda for the host country, so of couse people wouldnt wanna spend billions in a fortnight event, au contraire of countries like russia, china or the US, where the reputation of the country to the world is the 1st priority. So if the only way we can get olympics in free countries is through private surveys, let them be. Is strange that people in this site support the blown off of the bids, while that is exactly what would represent the end of the olympics as we know them.

We're obviously all fans of the Olympics here and especially given what the past 12 months have offered up, we'd prefer to see the Olympics than for them to not exist.  But at what cost?  If the IOC can't find a city whose citizens are willing to be a part of that, then maybe that tells us something about the Olympics as we know them.  Long gone are the days where a city could claim an Olympics bid could serve as an urban revitalization project.  So it's that much harder to sell to a city that it's a worthwhile investment, especially when the costs inevitably increase over what the original plans were.

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16 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

“australian kiwi” looks like that’s your default trolling attack retort when someone disagrees with you. Plenty of examples of your destructive behaviour in these threads.
Usually indicates a lack of confidence in your own opinion.

 

16 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

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42 minutes ago, Bear said:

Side note, weren't the Japanese hostile to Bach and the IOC in the lead up to 2021? And now they suddenly accept another Olympics? Seems a bit sus to me tbh... But if Sapporo does indeed have the numbers they claim to have, then what better way to prove it than by organizing a referendum :D

Yeah, but that had more to do with the Japanese getting weary & anxious over the extra added expense & logistics the one-year postponement Tokyo 2020ne was causing. When the Japanese first won 2020, back in 2013, they were estatic as can be. I was fully expecting Tokyo 2020 to be a full-on success (pre-pandemic) like London 2012 was. All signs before Coronavirus were pointing to that, particularly in 2019 when the Japanese hosted a successful Rugby World Cup. But as we all sadly know now, that wasn’t the case.

That said, though, we should really treat this as a case-by-case basis. Or in this instance, a city-by-city basis. It should be no great surprise why the citizens of Tokyo were getting Olympic fatigue by the summer of 2021, but would the people of Sapporo feel any different about the Winter Olympics coming to their city in 2030?

Case in point, look at how the people of Boston rejected their 2024 Olympic bid, but Los Angeles was all gung-ho to bid in their place instead. So in other words, can’t really judge an entire country over Olympic support with one brush when the difference in different sections of some countries could be drastically different. Especially when we’re talking about large populated countries like the U.S. & Japan, where many POV’s & attitudes are as different as night & day.

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3 minutes ago, FYI said:

Yeah, but that had more to do with the Japanese getting weary & anxious over the extra added expense & logistics the one-year postponement Tokyo 2020ne was causing. When the Japanese first won 2020, back in 2013, they were estatic as can be. I was fully expecting Tokyo 2020 to be a full-on success (pre-pandemic) like London 2012 was. All signs before Coronavirus were pointing to that, particularly in 2019 when the Japanese hosted a successful Rugby World Cup. But as we all sadly know now, that wasn’t the case.

That said, though, we should really treat this as a case-by-case basis. Or in this instance, a city-by-city basis. It should be no great surprise why the citizens of Tokyo were getting Olympic fatigue by the summer of 2021, but would the people of Sapporo feel any different about the Winter Olympics coming to their city in 2030?

Case in point, look at how the people of Boston rejected their 2024 Olympic bid, but Los Angeles was all gung-ho to bid in their place instead. So in other words, can’t really judge an entire country over Olympic support with one brush when the difference in different sections of some countries could be drastically different. Especially when we’re talking about large populated countries like the U.S. & Japan, where many POV’s & attitudes are as different as night & day.

totally fair, makes sense

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31 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:
  • Milano-Cortina was elected in 2019 as the 2026 Winter Games host on the back of being able to demonstrate majority public support withoutholding a referendum or public vote. 
  • Brisbane was elected in 2021 as the 2032 Summer Games host on the back of being able to demonstrate majority public support withoutholding a referendum or public vote. 

Internet trolling: A definition

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The facts remain.

What the IOC currently accept as public support can be:

- in the form of a public vote,

- or a demonstration of public support through an opinion poll.

 I didn’t make this up.

This the reality of the situation.

Referendums have a demonstrated high risk of sinking candidatures dead in the water.

But that’s the choice of that city or the governing body of that city.

That’s why Sapporo stopped the referendum dead in it’s tracks lest it stop their 2030 candidature dead in the water.

 

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5 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

You can thrash this around all you want, but that ain’t going to change the reality that referendums sink bids.

That’s just tough cookies. If a city, or the IOC, is so scared that they’d lose a referendum if they went to the citizenry, then that city has no business bidding. Indeed, it’s reprehensible if they do. You can’t just throw accountability out the window because it’s inconvenient.

The IOC, and potential hosts, should be convincing people to want the Olympics. Not riding roughshod over citizens’ concerns in a bid to dodge contrary opinion.

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49 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

That’s just tough cookies. If a city, or the IOC, is so scared that they’d lose a referendum if they went to the citizenry, then that city has no business bidding. Indeed, it’s reprehensible if they do. You can’t just throw accountability out the window because it’s inconvenient.

The IOC, and potential hosts, should be convincing people to want the Olympics. Not riding roughshod over citizens’ concerns in a bid to dodge contrary opinion.

So if referendums are the rule then what, US, UK and france over and over? then just build a town in the middle of nowhere or destroy the olympics and just celebrate sport championships. Evidently its either avoiding referendums, or get the olympics into an unavoidable collapse....or get china and russia into hosting every 8 years (they will just make up the referendum results)

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48 minutes ago, Chris_Mex said:

So if referendums are the rule then what, US, UK and france over and over? then just build a town in the middle of nowhere or destroy the olympics and just celebrate sport championships. Evidently its either avoiding referendums, or get the olympics into an unavoidable collapse....or get china and russia into hosting every 8 years (they will just make up the referendum results)

Don’t be so sure the US, UK and French public would be so keen to pass a referendum these days either.

If a democratic citizenry aren’t’ keen on hosting the Olympics, who are you to tell them that they’re being selfish by denying you nice background scenery for your beloved event? It’s not a problem with the public, or with democracy. It’s a problem with the IOC. They are the ones beholden with staging an event that cities would WANT to host.

And I’m certainly one who thinks there’s a lot for cities to gain in hosting the Olympics and that much of the criticism of the games is overblown and exaggerated. The IOC has a decent product to sell, but they’re just so f*cked at doing so. And to give them credit, they are making moves to address some of the major criticisms of the games - let’s hope that after Paris, LA and Brisbane they do have a point to push that the games can be done cheaply, responsibly and sustainably. Otherwise, yes, we will be left with little more than China and Russia wanting to stage them, and I’d fear for the long term future of the games in that scenario.   

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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

That’s just tough cookies. If a city, or the IOC, is so scared that they’d lose a referendum if they went to the citizenry, then that city has no business bidding. Indeed, it’s reprehensible if they do. You can’t just throw accountability out the window because it’s inconvenient.

The IOC, and potential hosts, should be convincing people to want the Olympics. Not riding roughshod over citizens’ concerns in a bid to dodge contrary opinion.

You can thrash around all you want, doing pivots, backflips and somersaults over referendums that would do an Olympic gymnast proud.

…. but it aint going to change the reality that referendums sink bids.

Think of referendums as the iceberg was for the Titanic.  

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2 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

…. but it aint going to change the reality that referendums sink bids.  

And you seem to think that’s a bad thing. Something that must be bypassed to get what you want.

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Why don’t we look how many bids have been sunk by referendums in the last 20 years to understand why Sapporo have blocked holding a referendum?

Because there’s one or two here in this thread with amnesia and are at their keyboard  shouting democracy and referendum like raving lunatics …… but completely miss seeing the iceberg dead ahead.   It’s truly bizarre.

I can see exactly why Sapporo stopped the referendum going ahead, and I’m glad they did.

Good on Sapporo.  I so want Sapporo to be successful with this candidature and be elected as host,  like I’m sure many here do as well.

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5 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

Why don’t we look how many bids have been sunk by referendums in the last 20 years to understand why Sapporo have blocked holding a referendum?

Because there’s one or two here in this thread with amnesia and are at their keyboard  shouting democracy and referendum like raving lunatics …… but completely miss seeing the iceberg dead ahead.   It’s truly bizarre.

I can see exactly why Sapporo stopped the referendum going ahead, and I’m glad they did.

Good on Sapporo.  I so want Sapporo to be successful with this candidature and be elected as host,  like I’m sure many here do as well.

Why don’t you look at WHY referendums sunk the bids? Instead of blaming democracy and citizens concerns, why don’t you put the blame on the reasons those referendums failed?

It’s totally bizarre that for the sake of a sports event, you think civic rights should be dispensed with as an inconvenience.

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It really is ironic. Because as much as I LUV the Olympics, I don't think that I'd really relish it in my backyard. I'm like the Swedes have been in this case. I don't want the large hoards of crowds descending upon my city. The traffic, the noise, the inconveniences that it would bring not only during Games time, but also in the years during the lead/prep time. I love the extravaganza that is the Olympic Games, but I guess just like hosting a big, loud party - as long as it's at someone else's house! So have fun L.A. lol

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