Draft ordinance for Sapporo 2030 Olympic bid referendum expected to be rejected in Monday City Assembly vote

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, Chris_Mex said:

Bcus if the bid is funded by government money there should be under all condition the opportunity to hold a referendum, but if ita a private lead effort, why would the public complain about the olympics?

Sometimes the public doesnt really make the correct decisions, I come from a city where referendums and public polls have killed opportunities of modern infrastructure. A couple years ago we were going to build a brand new privately funded airport in the outskirts of the city, and our populist government decided to get that into a referendum, supporters of the government decided to cancel the constructions, so now we have a billionaire debt for future generations towards those investors and a new non-functioning airport 3 hours away from the city. My point is by no means referendums are backed by logical thinking, and sometimes they have a political interest behind, olympics are no different, so from that POV we should think who is backing the voices calling for referendums and if theres no second interest behind calling for a bid cancelling

It all depends on how the question is asked.  It can't just be as simple and basic as "do you support the Olympics."  Public support isn't everything, but it also can't be about the IOC satisfying some sort of bare minimum standard about how a city's people feels about the Olympics.

At the end of the day, it's about how well organized and executed the plans are.  A city can have a ton of support, but if it's mismanaged, it can end poorly.  Ask the folks in Montreal who spent 3 decades with their city in debt how that worked out.  Sometimes it's about factors that are out of everyone's control, but that's why the Olympics are a very risky proposition.  And one that most people don't want to see their city involved with.  Case in point Tokyo after what happened with them, speaking of circumstances no one could have foreseen.

The sad fact is that the NOlympics folks tend to have a lot of good points about how the Olympics are more often than not going to be a losing proposition.  Even in a city like Los Angeles which is about as rock solid as an Olympic host city can be.  Having a functioning airport is a necessity for a large city.  The Olympics are not.  If done right, there are plenty of positives.  We've seen more than a couple of instances over the years where they weren't done right, though.  To Rols's point from earlier, that's where accountability comes into play.  Does a city have what it takes to host an Olympics?  Harder to get an answer to that question with a less formal process where a lot is done behind the scenes.  Which could eventually be a recipe for disaster

[AustralianFan]

5 hours ago, Guilga said:

Can we just ignore the Referendum Denialist and just let him yell at clouds as he worships the Olympic Savior, the glorious New Norm?

If no one wants the Olympics, it´s fine - The world, and sport, has survived around 1700 years without it before it was ressurected. And if we have to choose one place to hold the games forever, hey! I know a place at the Peloponnese who would enjoy it, maybe? IF THEY WANT IT, OF COURSE.

There is things more important than sport and the needs and wants of the people is one of them as much as we love the games. If you need a little more info on that, just look around where you live. Would they want a Olympic Games forced onto them? Would you want it? 

Sapporo want the Olympics.

They’re just not going to hold a referendum to do it.

You can throw a tantrum all you want

….. but Sapporo are still not holding a referendum. 

Why don’t you start a petition if you want Sapporo to have a referendum.

Because you’re wasting your time here crying about it.

[AustralianFan]

3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

However the bid’s funded, if they win their bid, it’s basically 100 per cent inevitable that’s government funds are going to be needed to stage the games. Thus, the populace needs to be consulted.

It’s not like the games are an essential need for any city. They are a luxury. If you’ve got the means and desire for them, sure, have fun! But they’re not a basic human requirement.  

Perhaps rols you too should start a petition to force Sapporo to hold a referendum ?

Go on.   It’s been done before.

Knock yourself out if you want to give it a shot.

But I don’t like your chances.

[Sir Rols]

8 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

You can throw a tantrum all you want

No, you’re so good at it… it’s fun watching you do it 

[AustralianFan]

so finally rols you are finally at peace  that Sapporo themselves have chosen not to hold a referendum.

 

 

[Sir Rols]

They can do what they want, and I can criticise them for taking the unethical way out.

I’m not the one coming in here, spamming the same posts over and over, shouting in bold caps and accusing multiple people of being trolls because they don’t approve of your viewpoint.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Sir Rols

[AustralianFan]

1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

They can do what they want, and I can criticise them for taking the unethical way out.

I’m not the one coming in here, spamming the same posts over and over, shouting in bold caps and accusing multiple people of being trolls because they don’t approve of your viewpoint.

your trolling behaviour and some of your aggressive attacking posts rols make me wonder how on earth you got to be a moderator.

you behave with impunity and take no reponsibility for your own reprehensible trolling behaviour.

there is no-one checking your own behaviour.

you quote a mysterious code of conduct about repeat posts then immediately respond to font you don’t like with ridiculous attacking large black font posts again with teflon immunity

[Chris_Mex]

1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

They can do what they want, and I can criticise them for taking the unethical way out.

I’m not the one coming in here, spamming the same posts over and over, shouting in bold caps and accusing multiple people of being trolls because they don’t approve of your viewpoint.

"Unethical way" LOL, now we are taking the no referendum way as the ultimate dictatorship authoritarian way of choosing hosts. There are a million things surrounding the olympics way more unethical than a bidding party avoiding a referendum, literally last february olympics were held in the capital of a damn authoritarian country, and last summer we got the olympics in the midst of the worst pandemic in a century. We are comparing that to not making a referendum, this is ridiculous.

[Rob2012]

Seems to me there's a rather simple way of determining whether there should be a referendum or not.

[AustralianFan]

5 minutes ago, Chris_Mex said:

"Unethical way" LOL, now we are taking the no referendum way as the ultimate dictatorship authoritarian way of choosing hosts. There are a million things surrounding the olympics way more unethical than a bidding party avoiding a referendum, literally last february olympics were held in the capital of a damn authoritarian country, and last summer we got the olympics in the midst of the worst pandemic in a century. We are comparing that to not making a referendum, this is ridiculous.

Exactly right.   Fully agree.

This band-wagon nonsense condemnation lately of Sapporo by some on these threads is so ridiculous.

Some of those same two posters were not long ago were hoping that Sapporo wins the 2030 - now these self-righteous ignoramuses are bleating about democracy and have back-flipped and pivoted quicker than Nadia Comaneci by weakly insisting that Sapporo don’t deserve the Olympics if they don’t have a referendum.

Well, like many here, I hope that Sapporo finds another way to demonstrate public support and ends up wnning the Games in 2030.

It would be a coming home Olympics after the 1972 Games.

 

[AustralianFan]

1 minute ago, Rob. said:

Seems to me there's a rather simple way of determining whether there should be a referendum or not.

There’s no point.

Sapporo have themselves decided they most certainly are not holding a referendum.

We wait to see what happens next but come December, I hope that they are elevated to Targeted Dialogue ahead.  But we’ll have to see what happens before then.

 

[Rob2012]

 

Being serious for a second...

I would argue referendums are absolutely not a necessity when it comes to the Olympics. Where I can see they're useful is...

1. In countries which are used to putting policies to a plebiscite. Some countries have this deep-rooted in their politics and know how to do it well, without it becoming a disinformation campaign, or the loudest voices winning, or without it turning into a referendum on the sitting government rather than about the issue at hand. But these countries are few and far between.

2. If an elected Mayor or government proposes an Olympic bid and it's immediately unpopular, but it's being rammed through anyway. In that case, I can see a referendum as a means to an end.

I don't see why every Olympic bid needs a mandate of a referendum. In a representative democracy, it shouldn't be necessary.

I'm not au fait with the details of Sapporo, but that's my general thoughts on the issue for what they're worth.

[Rob2012]

Incidentally, in case anyone (in particular ) gets the wrong idea, NONE of what I've just written means I'm agreeing with the idea that referendums shouldn't happen because they "sink bids". That's NOT where I'm coming from. I hope that's clear from point #2 in my post above actually.

I'm simply arguing against the notion that a plebiscite is a necessary (or the only acceptable) democratic route for a bid to proceed. Political culture and case by case circumstances mean it'll be right in some places and unnecessary in others.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Rob.

[Sir Rols]

57 minutes ago, Rob. said:

I would argue referendums are absolutely not a necessity when it comes to the Olympics. Where I can see they're useful is...

1. In countries which are used to putting policies to a plebiscite. Some countries have this deep-rooted in their politics and know how to do it well, without it becoming a disinformation campaign, or the loudest voices winning, or without it turning into a referendum on the sitting government rather than about the issue at hand. But these countries are few and far between.

2. If an elected Mayor or government proposes an Olympic bid and it's immediately unpopular, but it's being rammed through anyway. In that case, I can see a referendum as a means to an end.

I don't see why every Olympic bid needs a mandate of a referendum. In a representative democracy, it shouldn't be necessary.

I'm not au fait with the details of Sapporo, but that's my general thoughts on the issue for what they're worth.

I would tend to agree with you, on the assumption the hypothetical bid had already demonstrated a comfortable level of support.

My problem with Sapporo is that’s what support’s been demonstrated is far from comfortable - a single poll that found support at just over 50 per cent. That’s the type of number that would have been disastrous in the old bid days and, of course, raises real fears that it would not withstand a referendum. In which case I see the decision to avoid a referendum as sweeping a potential problem under the carpet in the name of expediency. “Doing a Denver” has been mentioned, and while I don’t think that would be inevitable, it is sure a possibility.

I’d be more comfortable if support was at least up above the mid 60s, or even if the IOC themselves did one of their own independent surveys.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Sir Rols

[Rob2012]

Yes, this one seems borderline...unless you're of the opinion that referendums are always absolutely necessary, or of the opinion that they shouldn't happen because they sink bids.

What I would say is it's undoubtedly awkward and - I can't believe I'm going to use this godawful word - from an 'optics' (sick in my mouth) point of view it's really not what the IOC needs.

But I guess it's one for the people of Japan and Sapporo to work through. I'm not going to venture a strong opinion either way on this one.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Rob.

[Quaker2001]

3 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

Exactly right.   Fully agree.

This band-wagon nonsense condemnation lately of Sapporo by some on these threads is so ridiculous.

Some of those same two posters were not long ago were hoping that Sapporo wins the 2030 - now these self-righteous ignoramuses are bleating about democracy and have back-flipped and pivoted quicker than Nadia Comaneci by weakly insisting that Sapporo don’t deserve the Olympics if they don’t have a referendum.

Well, like many here, I hope that Sapporo finds another way to demonstrate public support and ends up wnning the Games in 2030.

It would be a coming home Olympics after the 1972 Games.

You continue to miss the mark by a mile.  We're not condemning Sapporo.  We're condemning the IOC and their selection process.  No one here - not myself or Rols or anyone else - is insinuating that Sapporo doesn't deserve the Olympics.  But the citizens of that city deserve a better read what the support level for the Olympics is than a couple of hastily held opinion polls. 

You continue to take the position that Sapporo getting the Olympics is more important than their ability to demonstrate whether or not the support is there.  You say you hope they can demonstrate it but so fiercely don't want a referendum.  Why not?  Afraid you won't get the answer you're looking for like the opinion polls offered up?  You don't need to keep reminding us why they won't hold a referendum.  We all know the answer to that question.

I too hope that Sapporo's bid remains on solid footing.  But if there's a proverbial iceberg out in the water, I hope they have the foresight to spot it and navigate around it rather than steaming straight towards it and have it be too late to do anything about it.  If they get awarded 2030, I don't believe that will be the outcome, but that uncertainty is going to linger, especially if any of the bid is mis-managed and the costs are higher than anticipated.  Which inevitably, they almost always are

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, Rob. said:

Incidentally, in case anyone (in particular ) gets the wrong idea, NONE of what I've just written means I'm agreeing with the idea that referendums shouldn't happen because they "sink bids". That's NOT where I'm coming from. I hope that's clear from point #2 in my post above actually.

I'm simply arguing against the notion that a plebiscite is a necessary (or the only acceptable) democratic route for a bid to proceed. Political culture and case by case circumstances mean it'll be right in some places and unnecessary in others.

Again, I think this is where we need to be looking more at the IOC than at Sapporo.  Have they lowered the bar for what is an acceptable level of public support in order to attract more bids?  Are they doing their due diligence in order to properly assess a city's public support level in order to determine whether or not they are worthy and capable of hosting an Olympics?

This is still the IOC we're talking about, so they haven't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt.  We've all highlighted both the positives and the negatives of the new norm process, but this feels like a negative because the bid may not be receiving the level of scrutiny it should because there aren't a lot of good alternatives out there.  Again, not a knock on Sapporo.  More a criticism of the IOC and how they do business

[Rob2012]

12 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

Again, I think this is where we need to be looking more at the IOC than at Sapporo.  Have they lowered the bar for what is an acceptable level of public support in order to attract more bids?  Are they doing their due diligence in order to properly assess a city's public support level in order to determine whether or not they are worthy and capable of hosting an Olympics?

Lowered it? I'm not sure they have.

I remember bids reaching candidature status with support in the 40-60% range in the past. I'm not sure this has really changed with the new norm. And of course, that's ignoring bids and hosts from nations where such support doesn't matter and where polling is entirely unreliable - the IOC have always been happy to work with thse places.

You'll need to convince me the new norm has brought a negative change here, because I'm not sure the starting point was ever that great.

17 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

but this feels like a negative because the bid may not be receiving the level of scrutiny it should because there aren't a lot of good alternatives out there.

This all rolls in together with the lower level of transparency we now have. It's much harder to get a handle on this stuff on the outside looking in that it once was.

 

[AustralianFan]

6 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

You continue to miss the mark by a mile.  We're not condemning Sapporo.  We're condemning the IOC and their selection process.  No one here - not myself or Rols or anyone else - is insinuating that Sapporo doesn't deserve the Olympics.  

 

 

 

1.  ‘The Positioning on the High Horse’

On 6/9/2022 at 11:10 PM, Quaker2001 said:

Again, if they were to hold a referendum that they couldn't survive, then maybe that says something about whether or not they (Sapporo) should be bidding for the Olympics in the first place

 

2.  ‘The Backflip’

6 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

No one here - not myself or Rols or anyone else - is insinuating that Sapporo doesn't deserve the Olympics. 

[Quaker2001]

8 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

 

 

 

1.  ‘The Positioning on the High Horse’

 

2.  ‘The Backflip’

Is there a reason you're turning what you type into images on imgur?  Not sure what the point of that is because it's really annoying.  Dare I say trollish.  Screaming louder doesn't make your points any stronger.  It's like you're trying to be a Trump supporter or something similar.

I was never beating that drum and the post you quoted doesn't follow that at all.  Just another strawman from you.  You keep saying you want to measure public support, so what is your objection to a referendum?  Because it's risky?  Because it may not produce the outcome you're looking for?  You know what else is risky.. spending billions of dollars on hosting an Olympics.  So maybe let's hold the IOC and prospective host cities to a higher standard than to do the bare minimum to offer up how much public support they have.  And who is to say that Sapporo can't pass a referendum.  Imagine if they did.  How good would that look for them and the IOC that there was public support there.  And not just from a small sample size opinion poll you seem to be so convinced is enough to prove a bid's worthiness.

Once again since this point keeps getting lost on you.. this is about accountability.  For both the cities and for the IOC.  That's what Rols and I are asking for.  We're not demanding there be referendums everywhere as if that should be an obligatory part of the process.  No one is saying that.  We're asking for everyone involved to be more forthcoming about who they're engaging with and why.  For some reason, that's seems to be an unreasonable request for you.

I'm rooting for Sapporo here.  If you try to argue otherwise, you're flat out wrong.  What I don't want to have happen though is for Sapporo to get the Olympics, for us to find out later on that the citizens didn't really want it, and the reputation of the IOC takes a tumble.

[AustralianFan]

 

54 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

 “And who is to say that Sapporo can't pass a referendum.  Imagine if they did.  How good would that look for them”

 “That's what Rols and I are asking for.  We're not demanding there be referendums everywhere as if that should be an obligatory part of the process.”

 

 

[Sir Rols]

Honestly, are you not capable of debating calmly in good faith? Do you really need to amp up to personal attacks and character assassinations - in big bold 40 point jpegs so you can’t easily be quoted - because we just don’t accept your premise? Can you not wrap your head around nuance? Is it really we either agree with you totally or we’re the enemy of the Olympics? You talk about tantrums, but you’ve demonstrated a text book example of how tantrums are conducted on Internet forums. 

Neither I nor Quaker or others have said we don’t think Sapporo deserves the games. What we have argued is that Sapporo, or any bid, should not be moving forward unless they can demonstrate comfortable public approval  beyond a survey that shows only the most barest of majority support. It should go without saying that it’s a risky proposition to go forward and host a games when you don’t have a comfortably large majority of the local populace backing it. Yes, a referendum could sink a bid. That’s fair enough. But a referendum could also approve it, and that would shut up all naysayers for it in their tracks and secure those games from such risk.

For the record, I don’t have any skin in the 2030 race. I really don’t care who wins. If pushed, I might ever so slightly prefer Sapporo over SLC, but that’s like saying if pushed I might say I prefer raspberry over strawberry jam - they’re both okay, I’d gladly accept either. Ditto Vancouver. Even Barcelona-Zaragoza would be okay if it was viable (which doesn’t appear so). But what I do want of any of them is a host that can demonstrate secure, stable public support to reduce any risks to its successful completion.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Sir Rols

[AustralianFan]

3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Do you really need to amp up to personal attacks and character assassinations - in big bold 40 point jpegs so you can’t easily be quoted - because we just don’t accept your premise?

That’s rich coming from you who does exactly all of the above.

From you rols, who produced the post with the huge bold black font in these threads.

From you rols, who has launch your own character assassinations in other threads from the safety of your moderator podium and your abilility to edit your own threads.

In this thread, you had the gall to link my support for Sapporo’s no referendum position with genocide and dictatorships. Seriously rols, did you forget that.

Yes, rols you actually linked my support for Sapporo with genocide and dictatorships.

Yes, that was you, and if I could press the ignore button on you as the “moderator” I would.

In the meantime, Sapporo has dropped their referendum and I can see why they did it.

[Sir Rols]

45 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

From you rols, who produced the post with the huge bold black font in these threads.

How convenient that you fail to acknowledge that that particular post was an ironic commentary on these particular gems:

On 6/10/2022 at 5:14 AM, AustralianFan said:

 

On 6/10/2022 at 6:01 AM, AustralianFan said:

 

On 6/10/2022 at 6:18 AM, AustralianFan said:

 Reflecting on Sapporo not proceeding with a referendum

Which you’ve also since followed up with:

7 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

and

5 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

 

 

 

Honestly, it hurts the eyes to look at them. How very hypocritical of you to then use my reply as the basis for your latest character assasination. Absolutely breathtakingly hypocritical.

45 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

In this thread, you had the gall to link my support for Sapporo’s no referendum position with genocide and dictatorships. Seriously rols, did you forget that.

That was more a link to and comment on your usual modus operandi, stemming back to Beijing, when you took exception to my stance on those games and launched your first jihad against me. If you’re gonna play with fire…

45 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

In the meantime, Sapporo has dropped their referendum and I can see why they did it.

In the meantime, a lot of posters here don’t buy your stance on it, and I can see why.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Sir Rols

[FYI]

4 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Is it really we either agree with you totally or we’re the enemy of the Olympics? **You talk about tantrums, but you’ve demonstrated a text book example of how tantrums are conducted on Internet forums.**