Barcelona 2030 - understanding the bid with expansion a/o inclusion (of an eventual) Sarajevo legacy cluster

[fatixxx]

 

link main thread >> Pyrenees-Barcelona-Zaragoza 2030 - Page 5 - 2030 Olympic Winter Games Bids - GamesBids.com Forums

this thread is evoluated from the main-thread >> PYRENEES-BARCELONA-ZARAGOZA 2030 winter olympic bid from the spanish olympic committee / COE.. meanwhile this main-thread goes forward, the discussions brings/brought us to an inevitable issue, namely; the nordic & sliding events ↔ (in other words) the ski-jump & sliding facilities/venues.. these 2 issues are forming a bottleneck in this desired spanish-winter-bid.. 

SOURCE >> Claim Barcelona hosting 2030 Winter Olympics could net region €1 billion (insidethegames.biz) critical key-sentences are saying; 

.. "Bobsleigh has no tradition in Catalonia," .. Instead  events could be held in Tignes or Courchevel, both centres used in the Winter Olympic Games when they were staged in Albertville 1992.. Many believe this would offer an historical link between the Summer and Winter hosts of 1992.. The possibility of holding the sliding events at the bob run at Trebevic in Sarajevo 1984 would provide a more emotional link" ..

the emotional link with sarajevo comes from the time when the spaniard samaranch-senior was president of the ioc, and its in his presidency he declared sarajevo as wog-host in 1984.. NOW it is samaranch-junior who is in charge/head of the spanish olympic committee/COE whos coaching nowadays the Barcelona-Pyrenees-2030 bid.. FEED enough for the needed narrative and connecting symbolism in this spanish-wog-story

the first sentence in the article says as follow >> "It would allow Barcelona to follow in the footsteps of Beijing as a Summer and Winter host city.."  im personally in favor an apart concept/reception of an eventual spanish wog-bid that ive also mentioned in the main-thread.. i think that barcelona doesnt need the double olympic ettiquette as beijing did.. it could be a chance to have a 2nd olympic city on spanish-soil.. ZARAGOZA 2030 can be in the epicenter of the games whereby the needed venues for ice sports can be used in barcelona.. but the title of the bid louds as BARCELONA-PYRENEES 2030 as the epicenter and zaragoza as a secundary-city in this bid. But lets have a brain-storm on the sarajevo issue:

the COE has to tell on a very CLEAR & SIMPLE manner the idea/romantism for an eventual SARAJEVO-CLUSTER.. we understand that spain doesnt have no bobsleigh tradition and neither do countries have the obligation to participate in every olympic-sport-branch.. but they can begin somewhere and can start a spanish-bobsleigh-program for generations to come.. there is no ski-jump facility in spain, at this link we have a worldlist of these venues >> List of ski jumping hills - Wikipedia

this would mean that an eventual barcelona-2030 wog bid can use the ski-jump facility at the MALO-POLJE plateau in IGMAN mountain in Sarajevo.. in the thread-link beneath i did a little-amateur research.. and there are already made RECONSTRUCTION PLANS.. (click link below) 

 

 

NOTE: why do they not build these 2 jump-&-gliding-facilities in their own country to make a start for new spanish-generations to come and for whole the hispano-speaking-world.. why invest in reconstruction/refurbishing those 2 facilities elswhere when you can create a venues legacy on own soil.. thats the question in my mind.. doesnt spain has the money to built those?! >> Pyrenees-Barcelona-Zaragoza 2030 - Page 4 - 2030 Olympic Winter Games Bids - GamesBids.com Forums

 

here we have an article about the COST of an eventual demolition & redevelopment of the 1956 cortina d'ampezzo GLIDING-TRACK: "Plans for the track were presented at a press conference in Venice with officials confirming that the price of demolition and redevelopment would be €61 million (£51 million/$69 million)" .. this will be about the same price to DEMOLISH & REBUILD the gliding-track in TREBEVICE-sarajevo.. it is certainly a target-cost-price..

SOURCE: Plans presented for renovation of Milan Cortina 2026 sliding track (insidethegames.biz)

 

PHOTO: momentum of the sarajevo-track at the 1984-WOG..

 

WE HAVE TO NOTICE A LITTLE DETAIL ABOUT: 

- does the COE want to surpass/exceed the GRANADA 2015 WINTER UNIVERSIADE example.. could it be called succes that at those 2015 winter universiade the ski-jumping & nordic-combined leg was organised on slovakian soil in STRBSKE PLESO .. SOURCE >> 2015 Winter Universiade - Wikipedia

- important question would be >>  winter universiade worked in 2015 on smaller scale.. would it be a succes on larger scale?! the COE goes for this story/narrative?!

- 2030 - 1984 = 46 years of samaranch-sarajevo legacy

- 2034 - 1984 = 50 years of sarajevo-again (with exellent flora/snow)

- meanwhike SARAJEVO has build a lot of better hotels and already-succesfully organised the WINTER EYOF 2019 

- eyof-source-1 >> 2019 European Youth Olympic Winter Festival - Wikipedia

- eyof-source-2 >> EYOF 2019 Sarajevo and East Sarajevo - Olympic Committee of Bosnia and Herzegovina (okbih.ba) // with excellent photos

 

 

 

[fatixxx]

OLYMPIC HERITAGE VIDEO OF THE BOBSLEIGH-TRACK in TREBEVICE-sarajevo 

THEN 1984 & NOW 2022

in 2 minutes FRESH-VIDEO .. could BARCELONA 2030 ACHİEVE this heritage?! 

this is totally a new DEMOLISH-REBUILD project.. will it be feasable-viable?!

 

 

[SportLightning]

I don't know if that is feasible enough.

[baron-pierreIV]

The 2026 bid of Stockholm-Falun and Sigulda, Latvia failed.  An Iberian-Sarajevo bid isnt going to pass muster.  

Which means it's down to Sapporo and SLC as the back-up.  

[fatixxx]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:01 AM, baron-pierreIV said:

The 2026 bid of Stockholm-Falun and Sigulda, Latvia failed.  An Iberian-Sarajevo bid isnt going to pass muster.  

Which means it's down to Sapporo and SLC as the back-up.  

miles if we look to the swedish map: there are 2 organisational options on swedish soil:

ÄRE >> ÖSTERSUND = +/- 95 km (too much northwards)

FALUN >> STOCKHOLM  = +/- 215 km (about the same distance between milano-cortina)

in falun they have build the nordic combined venue with the skijump-facility.. the only problem is the gliding-venue.. and the closest option is LİLLEHAMMER in Norway.. i dont understand why the swedes choose for the sigulda/latvia option that lies more far away then lillehammer just on the other side of their border..

----

when ukraine had an eventual winter bid as the city of LVİV / LEMBERG in the epicenter.. they optioned also sigulda/latvia gliding-center in their plan.. i suppose that the biggest obstacle will be the GLİDİNG-FACİLİTY for EACH winter olympics to come.. İf the ioc ignores as each applicant-candidate wşth this "gliding in another country plan" than NONE of the bids will be succesfull.. they will be dead born each time.. THUS the ioc pushes national olympic committees to build those giding-venues.. in this case, the new talking-process to choose the next olympic city doesnt to make less investments to persue low-cost-games doesnt make sense.. the gliding center in SİGULDA- LATVİA is a PEARL to use and integrate in different olympic-bids.. 

what do you think? is this a correct correlation OR what is the BİG MOTİON of the ioc for NOT TO OPT for a facility out of the country borders? thanx in advance miles..

[fatixxx]

in this video from minute 9:00 till 9:40 we can ses the trebeviç area where the gliding was build

 

[SportLightning]

3 hours ago, fatixxx said:

miles if we look to the swedish map: there are 2 organisational options on swedish soil:

ÄRE >> ÖSTERSUND = +/- 95 km (too much northwards)

FALUN >> STOCKHOLM  = +/- 215 km (about the same distance between milano-cortina)

in falun they have build the nordic combined venue with the skijump-facility.. the only problem is the gliding-venue.. and the closest option is LİLLEHAMMER in Norway.. i dont understand why the swedes choose for the sigulda/latvia option that lies more far away then lillehammer just on the other side of their border..

----

when ukraine had an eventual winter bid as the city of LVİV / LEMBERG in the epicenter.. they optioned also sigulda/latvia gliding-center in their plan.. i suppose that the biggest obstacle will be the GLİDİNG-FACİLİTY for EACH winter olympics to come.. İf the ioc ignores as each applicant-candidate wşth this "gliding in another country plan" than NONE of the bids will be succesfull.. they will be dead born each time.. THUS the ioc pushes national olympic committees to build those giding-venues.. in this case, the new talking-process to choose the next olympic city doesnt to make less investments to persue low-cost-games doesnt make sense.. the gliding center in SİGULDA- LATVİA is a PEARL to use and integrate in different olympic-bids.. 

what do you think? is this a correct correlation OR what is the BİG MOTİON of the ioc for NOT TO OPT for a facility out of the country borders? thanx in advance miles..

Maybe 2034 or 2038 if not.

[fatixxx]

here a sheme of the trebeviç gliding track.. 

1rst image 1 track 

2nd image 3 sub-tracks

CLICK ON IMAGE >> to enlarge

[fatixxx]

Here i have made 2 compositions

to understand an eventual reconstruction + revamp to todays needs of the track

 

1// two screenshots from the youtube video >> sliding-maquette & worx taken from above on the trebeviç mount/hill

2// two screenshots from google earth >> the over-bushed gliding track with and without the lines i drew

(>> click on the images to enlarge)

 

[stryker]

The Sarajevo inclusion makes no sense when you have existing sliding tracks in France, Switzerland, and even the soon-to-be rebuilt one in Cortina that could handle sliding events for a prospective Spanish WOGs. My guess is they probably already when to the aforementioned countries and were told no.

[Sir Rols]

23 minutes ago, stryker said:

The Sarajevo inclusion makes no sense when you have existing sliding tracks in France, Switzerland, and even the soon-to-be rebuilt one in Cortina that could handle sliding events for a prospective Spanish WOGs. My guess is they probably already when to the aforementioned countries and were told no.

I doubt they’d have gone as far as ask, or got blanket refusals across the board if they did (what’s there for the others to lose?). More, Sarajevo’s just a bit of PR and virtue signalling - just an attempt at a worthy gesture.

[StefanMUC]

5 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

I doubt they’d have gone as far as ask, or got blanket refusals across the board if they did (what’s there for the others to lose?). More, Sarajevo’s just a bit of PR and virtue signalling - just an attempt at a worthy gesture.

Exactly that. Also, there‘s increasing tension in Bosnia again with the Putin puppet ruling the Republika Srpska playing with fire. A bid that has already trouble at home taking on another country with highly volatile politics - that‘s even too much for the Saint Samaranch family to overcome.

[Guilga]

Also, let´s not go too spread in the locations? If it was a sliding track on French Basque region it would be one thing but BOSNIA? Like, it would be baffling to the athletes at the bare minimum if they had to be so far away from the heart of the games to compete. At least, in the poor surfers case for Paris 2024, Tahiti is french territory.

[FYI]

^Exactly. This ‘new norm’ thing is just embolding some people to ‘imagine weird scenarios’! 
 

But yeah, teaming up with a neighboring country is one thing, but teaming up with a cross-continental country should be a non-starter right from the get-go. Where is the Olympic “atmosphere” with such proposals. It totally diminishes what makes the Olympics so special ITFP, & what attracted me to them TBW - ‘the world gathering in one place’. Once that totally gets diluted, the Olympics no longer are the Olympics, as we knew them.

[SportLightning]

That's would be a bit difficult for a Barcelona-Sarajevo joint bid.

[Sir Rols]

9 hours ago, Guilga said:

Also, let´s not go too spread in the locations? If it was a sliding track on French Basque region it would be one thing but BOSNIA? Like, it would be baffling to the athletes at the bare minimum if they had to be so far away from the heart of the games to compete. At least, in the poor surfers case for Paris 2024, Tahiti is french territory.

 

9 hours ago, FYI said:

^Exactly. This ‘new norm’ thing is just embolding some people to ‘imagine weird scenarios’! 
 

But yeah, teaming up with a neighboring country is one thing, but teaming up with a cross-continental country should be a non-starter right from the get-go. Where is the Olympic “atmosphere” with such proposals. It totally diminishes what makes the Olympics so special ITFP, & what attracted me to them TBW - ‘the world gathering in one place’. Once that totally gets diluted, the Olympics no longer are the Olympics, as we knew them.

Yeah, but it really is a test for the IOC how they handle the sliding venue problem. Let’s face it, it is a really expensive venue to have to come up with from scratch, and in most cases un-needed, or unsustainable in the long term. It’s the most likely White Elephant venue for any virgin Winter Games territory. Basically, the IOC has to decide if the sliding sports really are a core sport of the games (I’m sure the Germans say they are), and if they decide yes, be prepared to accomodate some creative solutions. And to be fair, they do seem to be taking that stance to the point of, unsuccessfully, suggesting to the likes of PyeongChang and Milano-Cortina that they should consider cross-border options. The alternative is to start accepting it only as an optional sport, in cases when it aligns with the abilities, needs or desires of a particular host.

In the Winter Games case, we’ve already had to get used to distances between anchor cities and the mountain sports. And in the case of the Summer Games, we’ve long got used to the distance solutions for such sports as sailing or equestrian (Stockholm ‘56 and Hong Kong ‘08). We’ve learned to live with, at least, individual sports occasionally having to be staged far afield. And, while I know many disagree strongly, in the case of Tahiti surfing in ‘24, I think it’s a brilliant solution and will do far more to showcase it than if it was in, say, Biarritz.

[fatixxx]

On 4/22/2022 at 2:03 AM, stryker said:

The Sarajevo inclusion makes no sense when you have existing sliding tracks in France, Switzerland, and even the soon-to-be rebuilt one in Cortina that could handle sliding events for a prospective Spanish WOGs. My guess is they probably already when to the aforementioned countries and were told no.

stryker, your sentence inspired me and  i have looked to those gliding tracks in FRA and SWI..

but meanwhile here a WOG-bobsleigh-list on wikipedia

>> List of bobsleigh, luge, and skeleton tracks - Wikipedia (most updated list =  ARTIFICIAL TRACKS in 3 categories; CURRENT PLANNED FORMER)

>> List of Olympic venues in bobsleigh - Wikipedia (2022 Yanqing & 2026 Cortinq not included in the list)

>> List of natural luge tracks - Wikipedia (dient know that turkiye has a natural luge track in SARIKAMIŞ (district-town - in kars province)

>> CLICK ON THE IMAGE TO ENLARGE // the most updated list

 

from the wikipedia-list above we can see that the barcelona 2030 bid has 8 options for an eventual gliding-track venue-cluster in the alpes

3-4 in france // 2 in italy // 1 in switserland // 1 in austria .. (if not 1-2 in the germany alps)

BUT if i am not wrong in my research NONE of these options have the CLOSEST-DISTANCE of the ski-jump & gliding facilities together

the only city/mountain-region that has this option is SARAJEVO with her TREBEVİÇ-IGMAN cluster.. (maybe igls-innsbruck in austria is the 2nd closest ootion)

now we begin to understand why the COE / spanish olympic committee has opted for sarajevo, because of this close-distance criteria

it is a STRONG SUSPICION if not OBVIOUS that the COE has made their research for their bid-story/campain

in france italy switserland they have to arrange things with multiple townships/municipalities/entities whereas in sarajevo with 1 municipality (i could be wrong)

why did the french and swiss gave negative answer or said no to the spaniards.. what were their motives not to cooperate with an eventual barcelona 2030 bid

there are about 10 bobsleigh/lugh tracks spread-out in the alpes.. so centered at the same time.. the ioc could come with creative solutions for virgin wog-bids

this issue makes a LAME DUCK for the spanish-efforts to experience another mountain range in europe, namely the pyrenees.. 

 

 

 

[fatixxx]

the closest gliding-track for an eventual barcelona-2030 bid that also lately is used for a wog is the one in CESANE (torino 2006) close to the french border

in backmind supposing that the spaniards didnt got a NO from the italians (instead of the french and swiss whereby they got the NO answer)

[fatixxx]

the EUGENİO MONTİ gliding track in CORTİNA will undergo the demolishing & rebuilding for the 2026 wog (closer to the austrian-slovene border)

but is situated qua location more far away than the CESANE gliding track.. will the italians say NO as the french & swiss to the COE

[stryker]

1 hour ago, fatixxx said:

the closest gliding-track for an eventual barcelona-2030 bid that also lately is used for a wog is the one in CESANE (torino 2006) close to the french border

in backmind supposing that the spaniards didnt got a NO from the italians (instead of the french and swiss whereby they got the NO answer)

The Torino track no longer exists. It has since been demolished due to rising maintenance costs.

[fatixxx]

2 minutes ago, stryker said:

The Torino track no longer exists. It has since been demolished due to rising maintenance costs.

very interesting stryket.. at the refreshed google map it is still there.. do you have OR could you copy a source/link here.. strange..

[SportLightning]

3 hours ago, stryker said:

The Torino track no longer exists. It has since been demolished due to rising maintenance costs.

Yep. While Cortina d'Ampezzo track is getting rebuild for the 2026 edition.

[stryker]

5 hours ago, fatixxx said:

very interesting stryket.. at the refreshed google map it is still there.. do you have OR could you copy a source/link here.. strange..

Google Maps is not always accurate. The link is old but the track has been closed since 2012. The closure of the Turin track has been one of the arguments for rebuilding the one at Cortina.

2006 Torino Olympic sliding track set to close due to high costs - Pique Newsmagazine

[fatixxx]

19 hours ago, stryker said:

Google Maps is not always accurate. The link is old but the track has been closed since 2012. The closure of the Turin track has been one of the arguments for rebuilding the one at Cortina.

2006 Torino Olympic sliding track set to close due to high costs - Pique Newsmagazine

 

i found more technical information about the torino track.. its called the CESANA PARIOL.. 

this track is not demolished BUT dismantled and its used only for the public and is part of the TORINO OLYMPIC PARC concept.. 

but i think that we find an answer to the question-mark-"ARGUMENT" that @stryker mentioned in his statement.. 

its obvious that the arument lies more in the TECHNICAL-DEFAULTS of the track in stead of the remove of the 45 tons of ammonia-product mentioned in the link that stryker shared.

 

QUESTION IS 

>> does COE has notice of this technical default at the torino track and never went to italian officials for a cross-border venue use?

 

-----------

 

"During construction of the track prior to the 2006 games, there was concern that the track would be completed in time for homologation. A minor archaeological find (Roman ruins) during construction slowed progress until the remains were excavated (near the current Turn 11).

The track was completed in late 2004. In January 2005, the FIBT and FIL held their homologation events at the track. The FIBT had no issue when they ran their events during the weekend of 21–23 January 2005. The following week, the FIL ran their events, and had several crashes. Included in the crashes were Austria's Wolfgang Linger (broken ankle and calfbone), Brazil's Renato Mizoguchi (medically induced coma), and the U.S. Virgin Islands' Anne Abernathy (collarbone). During the summer of 2005, discussions were held among TOROC (the organizer of the 2006 Games), FIBT President Robert H. Storey (Canada), and FIL President Josef Fendt (Germany) about refitting the track for safety reasons. An agreement was reached by all three, and turns 16 through 18 were modified as such. The track was finally modified in late 2005 in time for homologation. Test runs done by Italy's Armin Zöggeler in late October 2005 led to the track being homologated on 31 October 2005 after it had been approved by former German national team coach Josef Lenz and FIL track commission chair Klaus Bonsack.

Cesana Pariol is now part of the complex called Torino Olympic Park. Post-Olympic usage for the tracks includes bobsleigh and luge rides for the public.

In October 2009, problems with early refrigeration of the track led the Bob- und Schlittenverband für Deutschland in Germany to lend support of short-order auxiliary services for foreign teams on such short notice. Starting 16 October, Italy and Japan's teams trained at the track in Winterberg while Austria's team trained at Königssee's track.

The track was scheduled to host events in 2011-12, but was shut down due to economic costs. After pressure from the FIBT and FIL in early 2012, the track was scheduled to run in 2012-13 only to be shut down again. In October 2012, the track was ordered to be dismantled by Cesana officials. The 45 tons of ammonia was moved from the track's refrigeration for other uses within the Turin region. However, during the Sochi Olympics, President of the CONI, Giovanni Malagò, expressed the intention to ensure new investments to keep the track open."

source: Cesana Pariol - Wikipedia

 

 

[stryker]

1 hour ago, fatixxx said:

 

i found more technical information about the torino track.. its called the CESANA PARIOL.. 

this track is not demolished BUT dismantled and its used only for the public and is part of the TORINO OLYMPIC PARC concept.. 

but i think that we find an answer to the question-mark-"ARGUMENT" that @stryker mentioned in his statement.. 

its obvious that the arument lies more in the TECHNICAL-DEFAULTS of the track in stead of the remove of the 45 tons of ammonia-product mentioned in the link that stryker shared.

 

QUESTION IS 

>> does COE has notice of this technical default at the torino track and never went to italian officials for a cross-border venue use?

 

-----------

 

"During construction of the track prior to the 2006 games, there was concern that the track would be completed in time for homologation. A minor archaeological find (Roman ruins) during construction slowed progress until the remains were excavated (near the current Turn 11).

The track was completed in late 2004. In January 2005, the FIBT and FIL held their homologation events at the track. The FIBT had no issue when they ran their events during the weekend of 21–23 January 2005. The following week, the FIL ran their events, and had several crashes. Included in the crashes were Austria's Wolfgang Linger (broken ankle and calfbone), Brazil's Renato Mizoguchi (medically induced coma), and the U.S. Virgin Islands' Anne Abernathy (collarbone). During the summer of 2005, discussions were held among TOROC (the organizer of the 2006 Games), FIBT President Robert H. Storey (Canada), and FIL President Josef Fendt (Germany) about refitting the track for safety reasons. An agreement was reached by all three, and turns 16 through 18 were modified as such. The track was finally modified in late 2005 in time for homologation. Test runs done by Italy's Armin Zöggeler in late October 2005 led to the track being homologated on 31 October 2005 after it had been approved by former German national team coach Josef Lenz and FIL track commission chair Klaus Bonsack.

Cesana Pariol is now part of the complex called Torino Olympic Park. Post-Olympic usage for the tracks includes bobsleigh and luge rides for the public.

In October 2009, problems with early refrigeration of the track led the Bob- und Schlittenverband für Deutschland in Germany to lend support of short-order auxiliary services for foreign teams on such short notice. Starting 16 October, Italy and Japan's teams trained at the track in Winterberg while Austria's team trained at Königssee's track.

The track was scheduled to host events in 2011-12, but was shut down due to economic costs. After pressure from the FIBT and FIL in early 2012, the track was scheduled to run in 2012-13 only to be shut down again. In October 2012, the track was ordered to be dismantled by Cesana officials. The 45 tons of ammonia was moved from the track's refrigeration for other uses within the Turin region. However, during the Sochi Olympics, President of the CONI, Giovanni Malagò, expressed the intention to ensure new investments to keep the track open."

source: Cesana Pariol - Wikipedia

 

The last part from Wikipedia is not accurate. Malago did hope the track would stay open but the investments never came. This is why the track has never been used for competition. The refrigeration issue has been discussed on the boards here. What remains is essentially a skeleton of the competition track. There's a reason the track will never host competitions again. It would cost more to restore the track than it probably would to build one from scratch. Now that the track at Cortina is being rebuilt there really is no need for two competition level sliding tracks in Italy.