StefanMUC Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 2 hours ago, Quaker2001 said: Still feels like that needs to happen in conjunction with the IOC. If it's a blanket ban that goes beyond the Olympics, maybe that's a different story. But again, that's why I brought up the scenario about the US which I'd rather not think about in terms of a president making that kind of decree Well, what could the IOC do if Macron says in June that Russians can't enter? Clearly would be a break of the host contract I guess, but that would be way too late to move or cancel the Olympics (and the - still mostly Western - IOC sponsors would certainly not approve if there was a cancellation). They'd have to swallow this and as worst punishment remove the 2030 Games from France - which again would bring huge trouble for the IOC itself. Quote
FYI Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said: Still feels like that needs to happen in conjunction with the IOC. If it's a blanket ban that goes beyond the Olympics, maybe that's a different story. But again, that's why I brought up the scenario about the US which I'd rather not think about in terms of a president making that kind of decree In that 2024 instance, national security would/should 'trump' IOC protocols. In the 2028 scenario you're describing, though, it's more of an issue of a narcissistic individual simply wanting to establish their own whim (if they were to have no valid reason to do so). Two totally different scenarios. IMO. Quote
Sir Rols Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 3 hours ago, Rob2012 said: Not that specific decision, no. But if France were to rule that Russians can't enter the country, then that amounts to much the same thing. It gets a bit murky, though. Would it be analogous to the Taiwan situation? While the IOC is already craven enough to accede to China’s demands they be branded as “Chinese Taipei”, they still insist on their right to be invited and participate. And didn’t the Chinese try to pull some stunt over the Chinese Taipei team in 2022 and the IOC stepped in to tell them where to go? Or Israel. Granted, the notion of a Arab-Gulf States-Muslim games is still hypothetical, but one of the main guarantees the IOC would insist on is Israel competing, whether the hypothetical host recognised them or not. Anyhow, not sure if this unlikely hypothetical French blanket ban would even be possible. It could never be a blanket ban anyway - it would need to distinguish between refugees, dissidents, asylum seekers etc. Even at the height and hottest times of the Cold War, Russian emigres, defectors and political refugees have always been welcomed in the west. The scenario of a certain fascist orange US president is more likely. You could easily imagine him slapping on the total bans. “You’re from a Muslim sh!thole - you’re banned!”, “You refused to sell us Greenland - you’re banned”, “You don’t pay your NATO bills - you’re banned”, “You wouldn’t give us dirt on Hunter Biden - you’re banned”. Quote
FYI Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 1 hour ago, Sir Rols said: The scenario of a certain fascist orange US president is more likely. You could easily imagine him slapping on the total bans. “You’re from a Muslim sh!thole - you’re banned!”, “You refused to sell us Greenland - you’re banned”, “You don’t pay your NATO bills - you’re banned”, “You wouldn’t give us dirt on Hunter Biden - you’re banned”. I guess that would mean No Olympic Games in 2028 then, since every country in the world would fall under one of those cheetoh mans global categories. Quote
Quaker2001 Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 1 hour ago, StefanMUC said: Well, what could the IOC do if Macron says in June that Russians can't enter? Clearly would be a break of the host contract I guess, but that would be way too late to move or cancel the Olympics (and the - still mostly Western - IOC sponsors would certainly not approve if there was a cancellation). They'd have to swallow this and as worst punishment remove the 2030 Games from France - which again would bring huge trouble for the IOC itself. Again, if this is a blanket ban against all Russians due to the war, that's a different scenario. If Macron is enacting the policy specifically with the intent of preventing Russians from competing in the Olympics, you're probably right that the IOC has little recourse, but it's still going to be a really bad look for France that they're being discrimatory. And yes, that would likely have ramifications on 2030 with which I agree that's creating problems for both sides. 43 minutes ago, FYI said: In that 2024 instance, national security would/should 'trump' IOC protocols. In the 2028 scenario you're describing, though, it's more of an issue of a narcissistic individual simply wanting to establish their own whim (if they were to have no valid reason to do so). Two totally different scenarios. IMO. True, plus it's less than 5 months until the Olympics. The aforementioned 2024 scenario would indicate a major shift in world events that as noted could go beyond the Olympics. If Macron were to respond to that rather than make it specific about the Olympics, I wouldn't have an objection. I'm not as comfortable if that move would be to target the athletes. Because even though it's a different scenario, hard for me not to envision the nightmare of.. I don't want to say it Quote
Quaker2001 Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 1 hour ago, Sir Rols said: It gets a bit murky, though. Would it be analogous to the Taiwan situation? While the IOC is already craven enough to accede to China’s demands they be branded as “Chinese Taipei”, they still insist on their right to be invited and participate. And didn’t the Chinese try to pull some stunt over the Chinese Taipei team in 2022 and the IOC stepped in to tell them where to go? Or Israel. Granted, the notion of a Arab-Gulf States-Muslim games is still hypothetical, but one of the main guarantees the IOC would insist on is Israel competing, whether the hypothetical host recognised them or not. Anyhow, not sure if this unlikely hypothetical French blanket ban would even be possible. It could never be a blanket ban anyway - it would need to distinguish between refugees, dissidents, asylum seekers etc. Even at the height and hottest times of the Cold War, Russian emigres, defectors and political refugees have always been welcomed in the west. The scenario of a certain fascist orange US president is more likely. You could easily imagine him slapping on the total bans. “You’re from a Muslim sh!thole - you’re banned!”, “You refused to sell us Greenland - you’re banned”, “You don’t pay your NATO bills - you’re banned”, “You wouldn’t give us dirt on Hunter Biden - you’re banned”. 5 minutes ago, FYI said: I guess that would mean No Olympic Games in 2028 then, since every country in the world would fall under one of those cheetoh mans global categories. Hence my concerns of the unthinkable. And like Rols said, the question is how you enforce those types of rules. Because even if Macron denied entry, the IOC could still push for those exceptions saying they'd be under a neutral banner. And I have a feel some of the Russian athletes competing in Paris might not return home afterwards and that they'll use this as an excuse to head elsewhere. Could easily envision a situation or 2 where another country is happy to welcome them. Quote
Sir Rols Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 4 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said: And I have a feel some of the Russian athletes competing in Paris might not return home afterwards and that they'll use this as an excuse to head elsewhere. Could easily envision a situation or 2 where another country is happy to welcome them. Actually, that’s a good question. Would any Russian athletes who compete at Paris under the neutral banner, and under the IOC stipulation that they explicitly say they don’t support the war in Ukraine, immediately fall onto Putin’s sh!t list? Would the mere act of competing immediately qualify them for political asylum under risk of persecution back home in Russia? Quote
Quaker2001 Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 3 minutes ago, Sir Rols said: Actually, that’s a good question. Would any Russian athletes who compete at Paris under the neutral banner, and under the IOC stipulation that they explicitly say they don’t support the war in Ukraine, immediately fall onto Putin’s sh!t list? Would the mere act of competing immediately qualify them for political asylum under risk of persecution back home in Russia? It's an interesting and complex question. Seems like Putin has already hinted that he will condemn any athletes from Russia competing at the Olympics under a neutral flag when he'll certainly argue that they should have Russia's colors. That's where it will be curious to see where he falls on the spectrum between "if the Olympics are rejecting Russia, then Russia must reject the Olympics" and "we want as many Russians to compete as possible in order to piss off the West" We know several sports that had offering a path to qualification for Russia they have decided not to pursue, most notably gymnastics and swimming. Totallympics has been trying to guess how many quota spots they think Russia will be able to take. With no swimmers, that number will be under 50. Quote
StefanMUC Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 Just checked on Wiki that the „individual neutral athletes“ currently have 14 quota places, not sure indeed that many more will come. I also noticed on Wiki that both the Guatemala and Philippines NOC are currently suspended/under sanctions and they might also have to compete as neutrals if their status is not resolved by July. Maybe time to skip flags and national OCs altogether and let everyone be individual and neutral Quote
Quaker2001 Posted February 28, 2024 Report Posted February 28, 2024 3 minutes ago, StefanMUC said: Just checked on Wiki that the „individual neutral athletes“ currently have 14 quota places, not sure indeed that many more will come. I also noticed on Wiki that both the Guatemala and Philippines NOC are currently suspended/under sanctions and they might also have to compete as neutrals if their status is not resolved by July. Maybe time to skip flags and national OCs altogether and let everyone be individual and neutral Boxing has yet to conduct their qualifying tournaments, so that potentially adds some Russians. They'll almost certainly get spots in tennis. And weightlifting hasn't allocated anything, might be a couple more there. Quote
krow Posted February 29, 2024 Report Posted February 29, 2024 just reposting my favorite article here, for no reason at all. we love a neutral athlete! the IOC is so smart i hope i'm as smart as them some day. oh well! ALMOST HALF of Russia’s 71 medals at the Tokyo Olympics won by soldiers & police Quote
krow Posted February 29, 2024 Report Posted February 29, 2024 Ukraine’s Dead Athletes Haunt 2024 Olympics Russian and Belarusian athletes will be in Paris for this year’s summer games after the International Olympic Committee ruled they could compete as “neutrals”. Many of their Ukrainian opponents are dead. Quote In December, 226 Ukrainian athletes signed an open letter urging French President Emmanuel Macron to ban Russian and Belarusian participants. Some have already been approved as “neutral” competitors (that is, as participants without a stated national affiliation) even though they back the invasion of Ukraine, the letter says. They are “open supporters of the war, which is confirmed by information published on the Internet,” the letter says, listing examples of the athletes publicly supporting the full-scale invasion. No Russian or Belarusian athlete has “spoken out against the killings, against the genocide of the Ukrainian people,” the letter added. Quote
Sir Rols Posted March 6, 2024 Report Posted March 6, 2024 IOC president hits out at Russia’s ‘blatant violation’ of Olympic charter Quote
Guilga Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 1 hour ago, Sir Rols said: IOC president hits out at Russia’s ‘blatant violation’ of Olympic charter "And to think he was one of the best ones i had!" Quote “Every day we are seeing even more aggressive statements from the Russian government and officials,” he said. “What is remarkable is that this aggressivity is coming from the very same government that was behind the scandalous manipulation of the anti-doping system before, during and after the Olympic Winter Games, Sochi 2014. Well, you did reap what you saw in this case. Even when they did gave you Premium Neutrality™ you decided to keep screwing up. Your country broke the olympic truce a record 3 times, in between the olympics and the paras, no less. You ROC decided that was a good idea to annex parts of disputed territories from another country. You are so stupid, Russian Olympic Commitee to think you are deserving full participation after kicking the dog with a volley. You are still lucky that your athletes are even invited, just because the IOC separates their stuff from your... let's not use foul language here, this is a Olympic Standard website. However, another thing also catched my attention from the article. Quote Meanwhile Bach also confirmed that special measures would be in place to ensure Israel’s athletes were safe amid growing tensions across France owing to the war in Gaza. The Israel men’s football team, who have qualified for the Olympics, could have to play in Marseille, Lyon and other places outside Paris, but Bach insisted they would be safe in the Olympic village and wherever they play. “Since the heinous attack on the Israeli team in Munich, there have always been special measures taken with which the Israeli athletes and the authorities feel comfortable,” he said. “And the same will be true in Paris, Marseille or wherever. There will be Israeli representation.” “With regard to the Olympic village in the Olympic movement, we are all equal and there will be equal treatment there for everybody,” he added. First, i hope none of the Israeli athletes decides to throw any of this needed protection away just because they decide to follow their insane political leader "beliefs", especially against any Palestinian at the games. Just like i expect the same for any neutral russians. I really wants that last words to be paramount everywere, not just in the games. Second, i have a feeling that the Israel NOC could try to pull a ROC in Gaza. I wonder how the IOC would respond to this. Third, THE ISRAEL FOOTBALL TEAM QUALIFIED TO SOMETHING ALERT. High warning of potential geopolitical spicy groups...and maybe a lot of drama because of it. Quote
StefanMUC Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 1 hour ago, Guilga said: However, another thing also catched my attention from the article. First, i hope none of the Israeli athletes decides to throw any of this needed protection away just because they decide to follow their insane political leader "beliefs", especially against any Palestinian at the games. Just like i expect the same for any neutral russians. I really wants that last words to be paramount everywere, not just in the games. Second, i have a feeling that the Israel NOC could try to pull a ROC in Gaza. I wonder how the IOC would respond to this. Third, THE ISRAEL FOOTBALL TEAM QUALIFIED TO SOMETHING ALERT. High warning of potential geopolitical spicy groups...and maybe a lot of drama because of it. How about that? First: Last incidents I remember with Israeli athletes were their opponents from certain countries with „insane political leaders“ decided to/were forced to withdraw from competing against them. Second: What kind of bizarre claim is that? „pull a ROC in Gaza“ Third: Let‘s remember Israeli FA is part of UEFA because they were unwelcome in their geographical region (not to mention security concerns). And finally, this thread is about Russia. All I can say here: Fencing 1976 should stop being a cry-baby. He was Putin‘s biggest enabler for sportswashing. Still time to ban Russia altogether, but he‘s not doing it anyway, so spare me the complaints, Tommy. Quote
Quaker2001 Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 1 hour ago, Guilga said: "And to think he was one of the best ones i had!" Well, you did reap what you saw in this case. Even when they did gave you Premium Neutrality™ you decided to keep screwing up. Your country broke the olympic truce a record 3 times, in between the olympics and the paras, no less. You ROC decided that was a good idea to annex parts of disputed territories from another country. You are so stupid, Russian Olympic Commitee to think you are deserving full participation after kicking the dog with a volley. You are still lucky that your athletes are even invited, just because the IOC separates their stuff from your... let's not use foul language here, this is a Olympic Standard website. Maybe Bach knows what he's doing after all. Say that you are welcoming Russian athletes as neutrals while creating conditions where Putin says he won't advocate for any athletes to go. If that happens - although I'm guessing it won't - win win for the IOC. Either way, it's a greatly reduced Russian presence in Paris relative to Tokyo. It's still terrible attempts at diplomacy on the part of the IOC, but I do love that it's causing the Russians not to know what to do here. Either turn their backs on the Olympics and see if anyone misses them, or give in to the IOC's wishes and essentially tell athletes to publicly condemn Putin. That all said.. looking forward to July when we no longer have to talk about this subject. It's something that gets a lot of traction in the lead-up, but once the games start, it won't be a dominating narrative. Nor should it be. And speaking of things that shouldn't be.. 1 hour ago, Guilga said: First, i hope none of the Israeli athletes decides to throw any of this needed protection away just because they decide to follow their insane political leader "beliefs", especially against any Palestinian at the games. Just like i expect the same for any neutral russians. I really wants that last words to be paramount everywere, not just in the games. I'm glad Bach very publicly defended Israel's participation in the games which pushes back on comments like this that fuel the fire of anti-Semitism. Israelis, unlike Russians, don't speak out on politics in public settings. Nor is their right to free speech hindered, so they can be against Netanyahu and keep that to themselves. Yes, the Israeli athletes do need extra protection and I'm sure they won't take that for granted. I can all but assure you no Israeli athlete is going to go up to a Palestinian athlete and cause a stir. Not in private and certainly not in public. 1 hour ago, Guilga said: Second, i have a feeling that the Israel NOC could try to pull a ROC in Gaza. I wonder how the IOC would respond to this. What the actual is that even supposed to me. What is "pull a ROC in Gaza?" That's a really nonsensical statement that I'm curious to know what you mean by it. 1 hour ago, Guilga said: Third, THE ISRAEL FOOTBALL TEAM QUALIFIED TO SOMETHING ALERT. High warning of potential geopolitical spicy groups...and maybe a lot of drama because of it. Much like the overall Russia topic, it makes for good discussion now, 4.5 months out from the games. It will barely be a blip on the radar come games time unless there's an incident. And let's all hope to G-d that there isn't one, because it wouldn't be the first time such a thing has happened at an Olympics. I am cautiously optimistic there will be very little if drama because of it. Even with Israel competing in the football tournament. Quote
krow Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 does anyone know what an athlete has to do to condemn the war in ukraine? like, how is the IOC judging sincerity, and how forceful does the condemnation have to be? Quote
Sir Rols Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 Recovering from Novichok probably gets you a ticket Quote
StefanMUC Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 35 minutes ago, krow said: how is the IOC judging sincerity? By th€ u$ual m€an$ 2 Quote
Rob2012 Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 (edited) 6 hours ago, krow said: does anyone know what an athlete has to do to condemn the war in ukraine? Is this really what the IOC is doing? I assume they're also going arrange asylum/witness protection for such athletes after the Games? Making athletes choose between their nation and their career - when their nation is a brutal fascist dictatorship with a history of poisoning detractors abroad - is fucking appalling and a huge abrogation of the IOC's most basic responsibility, athlete safety. All because Bach and co can't make a decision. This is somehow even worse than just letting Russia compete. I mean, even if Russia pulls all its athletes, by that stage will their authorities know who's co-operated with the IOC and condemned the war? Or is the IOC hoping they'll all be too scared and the problem will just go away nice and conveniently? Edited March 7, 2024 by Rob2012 Quote
StefanMUC Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 The IOC won‘t ask anyone to condemn the war. First, they have delegated responsibility to the IFs who probably have very different terms of demanding „neutrality“. But none will ask Russians to publicly condemn the war, that would be ludicrous not the least when they still have family in Russia. Quote
Guilga Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 10 hours ago, Quaker2001 said: What the actual is that even supposed to me. What is "pull a ROC in Gaza?" That's a really nonsensical statement that I'm curious to know what you mean by it. Indeed, my wording was bad. I was referring to them doing something similar as what the ROC did by incorporating regional Olympic committees of the occupied territories of Ukraine. Sorry for the confusion. 10 hours ago, StefanMUC said: First: Last incidents I remember with Israeli athletes were their opponents from certain countries with „insane political leaders“ decided to/were forced to withdraw from competing against them Yes, you are right, but the reason they do this, although in the wider picture this might not be really smart, is the state of Israel long running bad (to say the least)treatment of Arabs and muslins in general. This very obviously doesn't make these other leaders less nuts, of course. In the end, is a reaction to the illegal settlements and attacks on the native Palestinian population even if these same guys decide to pull gasoline at the fire with their other reactions (to say the least). This is all hate breeding hate. But indeed, this is about Russia. And as Quacker said, at least the Israeli athletes will have freedom of expression to go against their regime actions. Maybe I'm just too jaded by see the disaster unfolding. 3 minutes ago, StefanMUC said: The IOC won‘t ask anyone to condemn the war. First, they have delegated responsibility to the IFs who probably have very different terms of demanding „neutrality“. But none will ask Russians to publicly condemn the war, that would be ludicrous not the least when they still have family in Russia. Back on topic, I wonder if not saying nothing at all will be neutral enough not for the IFs but for Russia itself... Quote
Rob2012 Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 35 minutes ago, StefanMUC said: The IOC won‘t ask anyone to condemn the war. First, they have delegated responsibility to the IFs who probably have very different terms of demanding „neutrality“. But none will ask Russians to publicly condemn the war, that would be ludicrous not the least when they still have family in Russia. If the IOC is making public (as they are) that any Russians competing are only doing so because they've condemned the war, it doesn't matter if the athlete in question has said anything publicly. Just their presence would be enough to condemn them. 1 1 Quote
krow Posted March 7, 2024 Report Posted March 7, 2024 bach falls on his sword for these "neutral athletes" that both 1) dope and 2) support putin openly, then has the nerve to tell the press about how shocked and betrayed he feels...but that he's happy to welcome even more neutral athletes for paris. you'd have to be one hell of a masochist to keep playing this game. https://www.usnews.com/news/sports/articles/2024-03-06/israels-olympic-status-not-in-question-says-ioc-president-bach-amid-frustration-with-russia Quote A Russian doping case — of figure skating star Kamila Valieva — also rocked the 2022 Winter Games in Beijing, and the teenager was banned for four years by the CAS in January. Bach lamented it was “really very, very heavy to take” seeing Valieva photographed with Putin at a sports event two weeks ago. “Now, she was misused for political purposes on top of that,” Bach said, “by having to stand next to the president, Putin, at the opening ceremony of the so-called Future Games. In this way showing the disrespect for all the worldwide anti-doping rules.” 1 Quote
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