Time to kick muddah-f*cking Russia out once & for all?

[Quaker2001]

6 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Olympics-wise, it’s of little relevance to the IOC - apart from fears of any impacts it could have on security at upcoming games, especially Paris, as well as the difficult legacy the 1972 attacks in Munich left the IOC. If the IOC is to make a gesture, it would be best served to ensure Palestine competes as a team in Paris, alongside Israel, as a show that extremism has no seat at the Olympic table.  

I'll respond to this part since this is still supposed to be an Olympics conversation.  What happened in 1972 in Munich was due to lax security at the Olympic village.  The Germans wanted to put on a happy face in their first Olympics since Berlin 1936 and sadly, their lack of awareness led to perhaps the ugliest incident in the history of the modern Olympic movement.

For better or worse, Olympic security these days is a completely different animal.  We learned that post-9/11, particular with the 2004 games when the security costs for Athens skyrocketed, as they have nearly every Olympics since.  No doubt tensions will still be high come next July in the very likely event that there is still ongoing conflict in Ukraine as well as the middle east.  I trust - or at least I certainly hope - that the Paris organizers are aware of this reality and plan accordingly.

I don't think the IOC needs to acknowledge the conflict in the middle east, nor to make any sort of gesture in response.  It's not their place to wade into political waters unless absolutely necessary.  With Russia, for all the reasons that have been discussed, it was absolutely necessary.  Just them and no one else.  If someone wants to start a "countries I think should be sanctioned by the IOC" thread, go for it.  To talk about anyone other than Russia in this thread, 20 pages and nearly 2 years long, is completely asinine.

[Quaker2001]

Alright, before I poke the Bear here, I will remind the group here that I am Jewish and 2 of my best friends currently live in Israel.  So forgive me if my viewpoints are on the pro-Israel side of things (which, to make clear in the same vein that Hamas does not represent the best interests of the people of Palestine, does NOT mean I support all the actions of the Netanyahu government)

4 hours ago, Bear said:

there is no doubt that the events of Oct 7 was, well in short, pure evil, but it does not give Israel the right to essentially decimate entire families, kill children, journalists, the people of Gaza who are simply trying to survive. Israel stopped being the victim long ago in this case.

Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before they committed hundreds of acts of pure evil likely knowing what the response would be.  Maybe if Hamas cared more about protecting their own people rather than using them to further their political means, we're not having this discussion.  I guess we didn't learn too many lessons from the Holocaust when it's easily forgotten that there are still people in the world that very openly and publicly call for the death of the Jews.  So yes, they are still the victim.  That they are smarter and better prepared than their enemies when it comes to these conflicts does not change that narrative.

4 hours ago, Bear said:

i mean, if the IOC had balls, then yeah sure (and they should have totally done something about Russia in 2008 too, if we're going to bring up past examples)

And was anyone calling to expel the United States at the time?  Or is this all Monday morning quarterbacking that we wish to retroactively condemn the US for the actions of the Bush administration and all of the fallout from the post-9/11 conflicts.  I remember a couple of the promos the NBC and the USOC ran back that touting Afghanistan and Iraq's participation in the Olympics as if the US was responsible for that.  I know that didn't sit well with a lot of people.  No one saw that though and thought the appropriate reaction was to sanction the USOC, which is an independent entity that is completely separate from the United States government, if we're going to start comparing more countries because heaven forbid Russia and Belarus are the only nations to have received a penalty like this.

5 hours ago, Bear said:

but "Palestine" is, and the actions of the Israeli government is undoubtedly going to affect preparations for Paris 2024 and beyond, which would be similar to this situation:

"While athletes from Russia and Belarus would be able to continue to participate in sports events, many athletes from Ukraine are prevented from doing so because of the attack on their country."

And obviously those in Gaza (part of Palestine) cannot participate in sport events when they're too busy trying to survive the latest bombing attack. Meanwhile it seems sports has resumed in Israel in some capacity, and while I do concede that Israeli sport has been affected a lot since Oct 7, it seems to be going much better than Palestinian sport...

Terrible false equivalence here because Gaza and Palestine are NOT interchangeable.  Most Palestinians do NOT live on the Gaza strip, they are elsewhere.  So you can't paint a picture that *Palestine* is in the same situation as Ukraine.  More than that, the largest team that Palestine has ever sent to an Olympics is 6 athletes.  Ukraine sent 155 athletes to Tokyo and every other Olympics since their independence has seen a team of at least 200.  And then you have to acknowledge the Paralympic team which is one of the most successful in the world.  In no way am I trying to downplay Palestine's presence at the Olympics, but it's a radically disingenuous argument you're trying to make here and I think you probably realize that now.

5 hours ago, Bear said:

that is why i'm saying if the situation continues into July, because I agree that as of right now, the IOC has no true justification to sanction Israel. By July when the truce goes into effect, then the IOC can and should do something.

HOWEVER.... (continuing below)

However I'm not naive, I know there's no way the IOC will sanction Israel, we all know this won't happen.

buuut they totally should if this goes on into July (which hopefully it doesn't...)

Don't think you understand the spirit of the Olympic Truce.  So you want the IOC to wait until just before the Olympics to make a decision to sanction Israel on the basis of a conflict (which they did not initiate) that will have been going on for 9 months?  Yes, that's not going to happen because it would be mindbogglingly stupid to do so.  You're a semi-regular here.  You're supposed to know these things a little better than the usual Twitterati that don't have a clue.  Russia is being sanctioned because they *started* an invasion of a sovereign nation during the Olympics.  With regard to the Olympic truce, they tried to deny Ukraine safe passage to the 2022.  And if you recall, originally the IPC was going to allow Russian and Belorussian athletes to compete at the Beijing Paralympics as neutrals, but then changed that decision based on pressure from the athletes.

You're concerned that athletes from Gaza (again, *not* interchangeable with Palestine) might have trouble getting to Paris.  Is that different than a year ago when Hamas was still in power and both Israel AND Egypt (don't forget about their part in this) have put measures in place at the borders?  Can't make a great case that this is radically different.  Although since you think the IOC should have had "the balls" to sanction the United States in 2004, no surprise here you're mis-applying principles to try and justify something you know isn't going to happen.  Because it absolutely shouldn't happen.

[Bear]

5 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

I see the Hamas propaganda is working on you as well.

bro CANNOT be serious with this 

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before they committed hundreds of acts of pure evil likely knowing what the response would be.  Maybe if Hamas cared more about protecting their own people rather than using them to further their political means, we're not having this discussion.

well yeah like i said, the actions of October 7 were evil and should never have happened, and some retaliation by Israel is to be expected. But what they are doing right now and even before Oct. 7 is inexcusable and indefensible. Also why should the innocent civilians in Gaza be punished for the actions of Hamas? 

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

I guess we didn't learn too many lessons from the Holocaust when it's easily forgotten that there are still people in the world that very openly and publicly call for the death of the Jews.  So yes, they are still the victim.  That they are smarter and better prepared than their enemies when it comes to these conflicts does not change that narrative.

again, I said Israel, not Jewish people, aren't the victim. There is undoubtedly a lot of antisemitic rhetoric and actions going on with this situation and in the past which is certainly not okay.

What also isn't okay is the indiscriminate bombings and attacks by the Israel, which goes beyond a simple retaliation. Israel is no longer the victim when they are clearly stronger and have better support than those in Gaza.

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

And was anyone calling to expel the United States at the time?  Or is this all Monday morning quarterbacking that we wish to retroactively condemn the US for the actions of the Bush administration and all of the fallout from the post-9/11 conflicts.  I remember a couple of the promos the NBC and the USOC ran back that touting Afghanistan and Iraq's participation in the Olympics as if the US was responsible for that.  I know that didn't sit well with a lot of people.  No one saw that though and thought the appropriate reaction was to sanction the USOC, which is an independent entity that is completely separate from the United States government, if we're going to start comparing more countries because heaven forbid Russia and Belarus are the only nations to have received a penalty like this.

i can't comment on other people's beliefs and opinions, and like, I myself was like six months old when Athens 2004 happened, but if the US violated the Olympic Truce then we should have probably gotten some sort of sanctions too...

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

I think you probably realize that now.

stop thinking things on my behalf 

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Don't think you understand the spirit of the Olympic Truce.  So you want the IOC to wait until just before the Olympics to make a decision to sanction Israel on the basis of a conflict (which they did not initiate) that will have been going on for 9 months?

i mean, yeah, its not like they can do anything right now because Israel hasn't broken the truce because there is no truce in effect. Not until July 12...

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

You're concerned that athletes from Gaza (again, *not* interchangeable with Palestine) might have trouble getting to Paris.  Is that different than a year ago when Hamas was still in power and both Israel AND Egypt (don't forget about their part in this) have put measures in place at the borders?

sort of yeah, because right now they're being heavily bombed and destroyed, more significantly than before:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-gaza-bombing-hamas-civilian-casualties-1.7068647

Satellite technology reveals bombing more intense than in Ukraine, Syria or even the Second World War

...

They applied data from the Copernicus Sentinel-1 satellite to Gaza and found levels of destruction unprecedented in recent conflicts, Scher told CBC News.

...

The intensity of bombing in Gaza is something the researchers said they've never seen before.

"It's just the sheer speed of the damage," said Van Den Hoek. "All of these other conflicts that we're talking about [Ukraine, Syria, Yemen] are years long. This is a little over two months. And the sheer tempo of the bombing — not just the scale of it but the sheer tempo — there's nothing that tracks [like] this in such a short timeframe."

...

United Nations figures have yet to be finalized for both conflicts, but the ones released to date show that Israeli forces have killed approximately twice as many women and children in two months in Gaza as Russian forces have killed in Ukraine in nearly two years

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

And if you recall, originally the IPC was going to allow Russian and Belorussian athletes to compete at the Beijing Paralympics as neutrals, but then changed that decision based on pressure from the athletes.

what's the point with this comment? if you recall people were rightfully upset at the initial position the IPC put themselves in. and in regards to athlete pressure, there is undoubtedly going to be pressure at the IOC to do something in the lead up to Paris.

[Quaker2001]

4 hours ago, Bear said:

bro CANNOT be serious with this 

4 hours ago, Bear said:

well yeah like i said, the actions of October 7 were evil and should never have happened, and some retaliation by Israel is to be expected. But what they are doing right now and even before Oct. 7 is inexcusable and indefensible. Also why should the innocent civilians in Gaza be punished for the actions of Hamas? 

Yes.. murdering and raping and kidnapping is bad.  Glad we're in agreement on that.  And I want to think that last question is a joke.  Or are we going to pretend that Hamas has not constantly put its own citizens in harm's way as if Israel - who could easily carpet bomb all of Gaza but have chosen not to do that - can pick and choose who Hamas is hiding behind?

4 hours ago, Bear said:

again, I said Israel, not Jewish people, aren't the victim. There is undoubtedly a lot of antisemitic rhetoric and actions going on with this situation and in the past which is certainly not okay.

What also isn't okay is the indiscriminate bombings and attacks by the Israel, which goes beyond a simple retaliation. Israel is no longer the victim when they are clearly stronger and have better support than those in Gaza.

Glad we also agree that anti-Semitism is bad, especially the kind that has ramped up in recent weeks from the TikTok generation that was trying to debate if Osama bin Laden was justified in attacking America.  Do tell us.. what level of retaliation in response to 1 of the worst acts of terrorism their country has seen in a long time would be acceptable?  Yea, no kidding Israel is stronger than Hamas.  Maybe that's a function of them actually wanting to protect their citizens rather than citizens who can't receive aid from humanitarian causes because their leadership intercepts it and uses it to fight their conflict.

The people of Gaza are victims.  No one would dispute that.  They are victims because they are ruled by an organization that still thinks they can achieve their goal of "from the river to the sea."  Not because they sit right next to nation that won't let them prosper because they are engaging in a genocide.  For those who think that's the case, then yes the Hamas propaganda is doing what they want it to.

5 hours ago, Bear said:

i can't comment on other people's beliefs and opinions, and like, I myself was like six months old when Athens 2004 happened, but if the US violated the Olympic Truce then we should have probably gotten some sort of sanctions too...

Well, did they or didn't they?  I'll help you out here.. no, they didn't violate the Olympic Truce.  You're on a website with people who follow all things Olympics (well, usually except the sports, which many consider to just be filler between the ceremonies), so if you're going to talk about a principle of the Olympics, helps to have some background.  I don't expect that from randos on Twitter.  Would be nice to see it here.  Knowledge is power...

Olympic Truce

EXPLAINER: What in the world is the Olympic Truce?

5 hours ago, Bear said:

stop thinking things on my behalf 

My bad.  I thought you were aware of what a disingenuous argument you were making.  I guess I was probably wrong about that.  I'll try not to make that mistake again.

5 hours ago, Bear said:

i mean, yeah, its not like they can do anything right now because Israel hasn't broken the truce because there is no truce in effect. Not until July 12...

You make it seem like this is going to be one of the first times there's a conflict in the world that will be going on during an Olympics.  No one actually expects warring nations to stop fighting because the Olympics are going on.  Again, even in the fantasyland you're imagining where more nations should be sanctioned by the IOC, would you really suggest the IOC wait until that date and then tell a nation who was attacked without provocation that they their Olympic qualification quotas are no good anymore?  That's a bad question.. you probably would.  Although I doubt it would cross your mind in the first place if we didn't already have this situation with Russia as a starting point.

5 hours ago, Bear said:

United Nations figures have yet to be finalized for both conflicts, but the ones released to date show that Israeli forces have killed approximately twice as many women and children in two months in Gaza as Russian forces have killed in Ukraine in nearly two years

You do realize those figures come from the Gaza Health Ministry which is run by Hamas, right?  I'm sure those are trustworthy.

If the organization that oversees Gaza wants to see their people stop dying, maybe they should come to some sort of agree with the side they're fighting against and NOT continue to hold innocent people hostage.  #bringthemhomenow

5 hours ago, Bear said:

what's the point with this comment? if you recall people were rightfully upset at the initial position the IPC put themselves in. and in regards to athlete pressure, there is undoubtedly going to be pressure at the IOC to do something in the lead up to Paris.

I like how you drop an "undoubtedly" on something you yourself say is not actually going to happen.  I'm sure a few individuals will speak up.  Some already have.  But all it amounts to is whataboutism.  If Russia had never invaded Ukraine but the current state of affairs in the Middle East was the same, would there be pressure on the IOC to sanction Israel?  Highly unlikely.  What happened in Beijing was due to the immediacy of the situation, which everyone saw coming from before the Olympics started.  Russia signed a resolution claiming to promote peace and then *during* the timeframe that resolution was enacted for, they invaded a sovereign nation.  After they were already semi-banned for the doping scandal.

I've seen opinions fall on both sides of the issue and the half measures taken by the IOC seem to be appeasing no one.  Some believe any participation by Russian athletes, even as neutrals, makes the IOC complicit in Russia's aggression against Ukraine (which if you're seen people post on Twitter very specifically mentions athletes and facilities that are gone).  Others thing the Olympics are a joke because how can the IOC deem all Russians to be responsible for the war.  And I've seen more than a few people who play the same whataboutism game you're engaging in saying that if Russia is out for "war crimes" then how is the United States not affected.  There are perfectly reasonable explanations for that, although most people don't want to listen to reason.  They just want their own opinions to be validated.

I don't want to continue down this particularly rabbit hole, especially since it's an issue that goes well beyond the Olympics.  So I'll leave it at this.  If you see news or even opinions - ignorant as they may be - about how Israel should be looked at with regard to their participation in the Games of the XXXIII Olympiad, feel free to create a thread to discuss it.  This is the thread to discuss Russia.  Not to go off on "what about" tangents

[Bear]

21 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

I don't want to continue down this particularly rabbit hole, especially since it's an issue that goes well beyond the Olympics.  So I'll leave it at this.  If you see news or even opinions - ignorant as they may be - about how Israel should be looked at with regard to their participation in the Games of the XXXIII Olympiad, feel free to create a thread to discuss it.  This is the thread to discuss Russia.  Not to go off on "what about" tangents

if you do not want to continue that is fine, i will respect that - but like this isn't the only time tangents occur on GB threads lol

may you gain some more humanity in the new year.

[Quaker2001]

9 hours ago, Bear said:

if you do not want to continue that is fine, i will respect that - but like this isn't the only time tangents occur on GB threads lol

may you gain some more humanity in the new year.

Wait, tangents occur on GB?  Gee, I never knew that before.

Trust me, I'm not someone to discourage a little topic drift (as opposed to a lot of topic drift, that's not so good).  But this is drifting away from the Olympics and into political waters a thread like this probably shouldn't go.

Once again, if you want to discuss Israel, a new topic perhaps is warranted for that.  I just hope that you would be doing that in the spirit of the Olympics and not just to occur anti-semetic rhetoric.  Because forgive me if I'm offering up some push back on that topic and don't simply want to let it go unchecked

[Bear]

9 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

and not just to occur anti-semetic rhetoric.

[baron-pierreIV]

ISRAEL . . . now and forever!!  
 

[Quaker2001]

 

[AustralianFan]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

 

That’s great news, finally some justice and the teams gold medal won by Russia and which Valieva was a part of will be awarded to Team USA, after all appeals are exhausted.  

[Quaker2001]

11 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

 

 

 

That’s great news, finally some justice and the teams gold medal won by Russia and which Valieva was a part of will be awarded to Team USA, after all appeals are exhausted.  

 

[baron-pierreIV]

It was a "witch-hunt."  Political interference in Ms. Valieva's running for Miss Russia of Figure Skating!!  

So now, they can award the re-allocated Team medals either at March's ISU Figure Skating Championships in Montreal (when you can have the entire Canadian team as the new bronze medalists) or, if they wait for the appeal, at next year's ISU Figure Skatings Worlds in Boston (1st time in ISU's history that two back-to-back World's comps are held in North America and neither venue is European!)

(And then both WOGs 2026 and ISU Worlds 2026 will be held in Europe.  Normally, the ISU assigns the Olympic year Worlds to another continent.)

[krow]

idc if it makes no sense, they should do it in paris and make it a media spectacle.

[Quaker2001]

4 minutes ago, krow said:

idc if it makes no sense, they should do it in paris and make it a media spectacle.

I would be totally onboard with that, but I don't know how they do that and not have it get completely lost in the shuffle with everything else going on.  That's why - and I know it's rare that I say this - I like baron's suggestion to do it in Montreal in March.  Would be a great nod to Canada that they would have a home crowd for it and I'm sure there will be more than a few Americans in attendance

[AustralianFan]

37 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

I would be totally onboard with that, but I don't know how they do that and not have it get completely lost in the shuffle with everything else going on.  That's why - and I know it's rare that I say this - I like baron's suggestion to do it in Montreal in March.  Would be a great nod to Canada that they would have a home crowd for it and I'm sure there will be more than a few Americans in attendance

Have all the appeals been exhausted?  I hope so.

That being the case, Team USA would move into the Gold Medal position, Japan would get the silver and Team Canada the bronze.

While it’s a nice idea to do it the Figure Skating Worlds in Canada, or Paris 2024, I can’t see the IOC awarding medals at a non-Olympic event. 

If the legal appeals by the Russians are eventually exhausted by 2026, then the medals can be presented at the Milano Cortina Games with full national anthems, medal podiums and ceremony rituals.

[Sir Rols]

Nothing for Tutberidze and the rest of the coaching/medical staff? They’re no less deserving of sanctions.

[baron-pierreIV]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:47 PM, AustralianFan said:

While it’s a nice idea to do it the Figure Skating Worlds in Canada, or Paris 2024, I can’t see the IOC awarding medals at a non-Olympic event. 

Nope.  IOC rules on belated re-awarding of medals can happen at IOC headquarters in Lausanne, OR the next immediate event--so, something like a World championship from an affiliated and major federation like the ISU; is desirable  -- and if all parties are in agreement.  Why should they award Winter Games medals in Paris, a SOG? 

Most, if not ALL the participants in the new line-up will be or can be at Montreal in March.  If the appeal steps in, then it would probably be Boston 2025 -- but who knows who can still attend then -- and better to hold it without the Russians present as that would be quite awkward.  

Edited January 30, 2024 by baron-pierreIV
xx

[iceman530]

Happy to see that late justice hit Russia.  

[Quaker2001]

 

[StefanMUC]

Well…not looking good for Canada‘s bronze after all. This is absurd.

https://x.com/rockerskating/status/1752266405729177797?s=46&t=gplp3yLYx26445hjltwmnQ

[Sir Rols]

8 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

Well…not looking good for Canada‘s bronze after all. This is absurd.

https://x.com/rockerskating/status/1752266405729177797?s=46&t=gplp3yLYx26445hjltwmnQ

WTF?

Høw do they arrive at that. Even if they’re only use discounting Valieva’s scores, by my arithmetic that puts them at best in a tie for third with Canada.

Edit: oh yeah, 54-53, my mental maths were out. Still, f*cked decision

Edited January 30, 2024 by Sir Rols

[krow]

that is so fucked because do they understand the concept of a team?

like, it was my understanding that if one soccer/football player tests positive, the whole team loses the medal, because they're playing as .... a team. 

i don't care if they get individual scores, they literally add them together. 

i bet the IOC loves this feckless half decision btw. 

[baron-pierreIV]

Per the ISU page, bronze goes to ROC.  So medals may not be awarded at next month's worlds since ROC will not be there.  This will probably be done in separate ceremonies in the 3 individual countries then.  

ISU Statement - Decision of CAS - Kamila Valieva (ROC) - International Skating Union  

(This is now similar to Marion Jones' surrendering her gold in Sydney's team relays.  Only Jones' name was struck off the list but her teammates retained their medals and--haven't double-checked yet--but the placements stayed.  But the dynamics may be different.)  

Edited January 31, 2024 by baron-pierreIV

[Karenina]

The ISU is violating its own rules & regs for the calculation of the Team Event results.  With a DSQ, the athletes who finished behind the DSQ athlete are supposed to be moved up in the standings.  In the case of the TE, 1st place gets 10 pts all the way down to 10th place getting 1 point.  With Valieva DSQ all 9 of the countries should get an additional point for the Short Program and the other 4 countries in the Free Skate should get another additional point.  Those 2 extra points would move Canada ahead of Russia by 1 point overall.  It's very clear reading the Team Event document and the Rule cited by Skate Canada that the ISU did not re-calculate the points correctly and Canada should be awarded the bronze.  Any appeal filed by Skate Canada has a high probability of success.  

This might be resolved by the summer but I'll be surprised if it's taken care of before Worlds in March.  I honestly won't be surprised if the medal ceremony doesn't happen until Milano-Cortina, especially if Russia decides to fight until the bitter end.

[Bear]

Is Canada appealing the new ISU rankings? they definitely should because this is totally wrong on so many levels