Time to kick muddah-f*cking Russia out once & for all?

[Bear]

Highly relevant update just dropped from the IOC EB regarding participation at Paris 2024:

 

[Quaker2001]

This is where the IOC's ban on Russia is a failure.  Because they'll leave it up to the individual federations to apply the rules and then someone like this who clearly supports the war will probably be allowed to compete because no one is going to step in and say he shouldn't.  

[cfm Jeremie]

Actually, according to the latest rules published by the IOC (Strict eligibility conditions in place as IOC EB approves Individual Neutral Athletes for the Olympic Games Paris 2024 (olympics.com)), the IOC will seek an independent evaluation of each qualified AIN proposed by the IF.

The above should therefore be a perfect example to see how the IOC is applying the eligibility conditions (that clearly states that Athletes who actively support the war will not be eligible).

[StefanMUC]

25 minutes ago, cfm Jeremie said:

Actually, according to the latest rules published by the IOC (Strict eligibility conditions in place as IOC EB approves Individual Neutral Athletes for the Olympic Games Paris 2024 (olympics.com)), the IOC will seek an independent evaluation of each qualified AIN proposed by the IF.

The above should therefore be a perfect example to see how the IOC is applying the eligibility conditions (that clearly states that Athletes who actively support the war will not be eligible).

The IOC will bend its rules in every way possible to please Bach‘s buddy Vlad.

[Quaker2001]

23 minutes ago, cfm Jeremie said:

Actually, according to the latest rules published by the IOC (Strict eligibility conditions in place as IOC EB approves Individual Neutral Athletes for the Olympic Games Paris 2024 (olympics.com)), the IOC will seek an independent evaluation of each qualified AIN proposed by the IF.

The above should therefore be a perfect example to see how the IOC is applying the eligibility conditions (that clearly states that Athletes who actively support the war will not be eligible).

That's exactly my point though.  The IOC is not going to be the arbiter of who is or isn't eligible.  They're setting the standards - that they claim will be "strict" - but asking someone else to apply them.  So if the that independent evaluation allows for an athlete to compete as a neutral that probably shouldn't be allowed, the IOC can wash their hands of that issue.  And then the problem becomes a situation like this where Russia earned a quota place in a sport on the basis of an athlete who shouldn't be eligible.

[Quaker2001]

2 minutes ago, StefanMUC said:

The IOC will bend its rules in every way possible to please Bach‘s buddy Vlad.

Not a doubt in my mind.  We've seen sport federations bend to the will of the IOC and then it releases the IOC from the liability of making those decisions.  Good on Seb Coe for standing his ground.  Other IFs might not act the same way and they'll follow the IOC's lead

[Rob2012]

 

[LinkParkFn]

All this anger about Russia, yet crickets on apartheid Israel and the genocide they're committing against Palestine? Nice work on double standards.

[Quaker2001]

10 minutes ago, LinkParkFn said:

All this anger about Russia, yet crickets on apartheid Israel and the genocide they're committing against Palestine? Nice work on double standards.

I see someone has been seduced by Hamas propaganda.  There is no apartheid in Israel.  Jews and Arabs live peacefully side by side and both are allowed to thrive.  As opposed to in Gaza where the leadership chooses to let their people suffer.  The population in Palestine has been steadily increasing for decades.  How is that a genocide?

Fortunately for those who like playing the whataboutism game and making false equivalences, we have an article to cover that topic for you..

IOC's ban on Russia cannot be compared with Israel situation

[corn_zxl]

10 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

I see someone has been seduced by Hamas propaganda.  There is no apartheid in Israel.  Jews and Arabs live peacefully side by side and both are allowed to thrive.  As opposed to in Gaza where the leadership chooses to let their people suffer.  The population in Palestine has been steadily increasing for decades.  How is that a genocide?

Fortunately for those who like playing the whataboutism game and making false equivalences, we have an article to cover that topic for you..

IOC's ban on Russia cannot be compared with Israel situation

Honestly I would still call Israel an apartheid state for reasons not limited to the current situation in Gaza. But yea i do agree that Israel is unfortunately far from being banned in the Olympics

[LTSC1980]

https://english.nv.ua/nation/it-is-possible-ukraine-might-participate-in-next-olympic-games-in-neutral-status-bidnyi-says-50380052.html

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, corn_zxl said:

Honestly I would still call Israel an apartheid state for reasons not limited to the current situation in Gaza. But yea i do agree that Israel is unfortunately far from being banned in the Olympics

Why is that unfortunate?  Do you think Israel should be banned?  Do you only think that because Russia is banned and you want to see someone else punished.  Sorry to ruin a narrative, but Israel is not an apartheid state.  

Why Allegations that Israel Is An 'Apartheid' State Are False under International Law

[Bear]

13 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

There is no apartheid in Israel.  Jews and Arabs live peacefully side by side and both are allowed to thrive.

LMAO okay

[Bear]

13 hours ago, LinkParkFn said:

All this anger about Russia, yet crickets on apartheid Israel and the genocide they're committing against Palestine? Nice work on double standards.

if both situations continue into July when the truce goes into effect they should definitely prohibit both Russia/Belarus and Israel from competing... or at the very least the IOC should make Israeli athletes follow the same standards that Russian and Belarussian athletes are being held to

[Quaker2001]

12 minutes ago, Bear said:

if both situations continue into July when the truce goes into effect they should definitely prohibit both Russia/Belarus and Israel from competing... or at the very least the IOC should make Israeli athletes follow the same standards that Russian and Belarussian athletes are being held to

No, they shouldn't because what's happening in Israel is not comparable to what's happening with Russia.  See the link I posted above to help make that distinction or else you're going to sound extremely foolish thinking there's the smallest chance the IOC might sanction Israel.  If there was nothing happening with Russia, would even consider trying to make that case with Israel?  Of course not.

I've had more than a few interactions with people on Twitter who had never even heard of the Olympic Truce and usually want to reply with "nah, that's not a thing."  Russia broke the Olympic truce in large part because they invaded Ukraine during the Olympics.  Israel did no such thing. Those sanctions are for Russia and Russia alone.  Israel is not Russia in any way that demands for them to be treated the same way by the IOC.  So playing the whataboutism game by trying to create a false equivalence here is ridiculous. 

[corn_zxl]

1 hour ago, Quaker2001 said:

Why is that unfortunate?  Do you think Israel should be banned?  Do you only think that because Russia is banned and you want to see someone else punished.  Sorry to ruin a narrative, but Israel is not an apartheid state.  

Why Allegations that Israel Is An 'Apartheid' State Are False under International Law

No matter the moral compass, letting any country run free while having a (might I say HUGE) death toll on their belt is in a way messed up. And this sentiment is NOT limited to neither Russia nor Israel. I do not wish for the Israeli Olympians to have to face the consequences of their government's actions, but personally, sanctions are the least the IOC could do to at least acknowledge the "situation", "retaliation", "act of defense", "genocide", or whatever else people have chosen to label their undertaking of Gaza.

Their suffering is not just a picture or some old gossip, its real life, it has happened, and it is still happening. And as before, this is not just Palestine/Gaza were talking about. Ukraine, the people of the DROC, The Armenians of Artsakh. No matter what nationality is being threatened at this very moment, they all deserve some sort of recognition or penance for their suffering, and I truly believe it should continue, with any sort of action against the regime of the Israeli government.

[corn_zxl]

Just now, corn_zxl said:

No matter the moral compass, letting any country run free while having a (might I say HUGE) death toll on their belt is in a way messed up. And this sentiment is NOT limited to neither Russia nor Israel. I do not wish for the Israeli Olympians to have to face the consequences of their government's actions, but personally, sanctions are the least the IOC could do to at least acknowledge the "situation", "retaliation", "act of defense", "genocide", or whatever else people have chosen to label their undertaking of Gaza.

Their suffering is not just a picture or some old gossip, its real life, it has happened, and it is still happening. And as before, this is not just Palestine/Gaza were talking about. Ukraine, the people of the DROC, The Armenians of Artsakh. No matter what nationality is being threatened at this very moment, they all deserve some sort of recognition or penance for their suffering, and I truly believe it should continue, with any sort of action against the regime of the Israeli government.

And as for Hamas, I am in no way supporting the actions they have done (that may or may not have sparked this war in the first place). But compered to the Israeli government, what Hamas has done is certainly less than what the former has done. Nonetheless, it still does not justify the fact that their actions are what have in a way worsened the situation for both the Palestinians and to the Israeli hostages. another BUT, it also does not justify what some have called a "defense mechanism" on Gaza. I'm no peacekeeper, but I'm pretty sure 20,000+ deaths and the flattening of an entire settlement counts as anything less than a war. Not to mention this entire scheme has been happening for DECADES.

[Quaker2001]

25 minutes ago, corn_zxl said:

No matter the moral compass, letting any country run free while having a (might I say HUGE) death toll on their belt is in a way messed up. And this sentiment is NOT limited to neither Russia nor Israel. I do not wish for the Israeli Olympians to have to face the consequences of their government's actions, but personally, sanctions are the least the IOC could do to at least acknowledge the "situation", "retaliation", "act of defense", "genocide", or whatever else people have chosen to label their undertaking of Gaza.

Their suffering is not just a picture or some old gossip, its real life, it has happened, and it is still happening. And as before, this is not just Palestine/Gaza were talking about. Ukraine, the people of the DROC, The Armenians of Artsakh. No matter what nationality is being threatened at this very moment, they all deserve some sort of recognition or penance for their suffering, and I truly believe it should continue, with any sort of action against the regime of the Israeli government.

18 minutes ago, corn_zxl said:

And as for Hamas, I am in no way supporting the actions they have done (that may or may not have sparked this war in the first place). But compered to the Israeli government, what Hamas has done is certainly less than what the former has done. Nonetheless, it still does not justify the fact that their actions are what have in a way worsened the situation for both the Palestinians and to the Israeli hostages. another BUT, it also does not justify what some have called a "defense mechanism" on Gaza. I'm no peacekeeper, but I'm pretty sure 20,000+ deaths and the flattening of an entire settlement counts as anything less than a war. Not to mention this entire scheme has been happening for DECADES.

There's more but's in this post than you'd find in a fat camp.  It's like every time you're making a point, you need to qualify it in the next sentence.  This thread is now 20 pages long.  It's about Russia.  And only Russia.  Maybe there's a reason we haven't turned this into a game of whataboutism.  One more time.. read the link I posted above about why Russia and Israel should not and cannot be compared here.  By your logic, should the United States have been banned from Athens 2004 because of their invasion of Iraq?  The fact you can't find a label for what's happening in Gaza - and yes, it's horrific what is going on in the Middle East these last 3 months, as if this conflict wasn't brewed before then - is probably a good indication that the IOC does not need to "at least acknowledge" it for the sake of the Olympics.  What they did with Russia is an extraordinary step, but it is a justified response.  They're not going to discuss Israel in the same light, not should they.  And not just because "Gaza" is not an IOC member.

[corn_zxl]

46 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

There's more but's in this post than you'd find in a fat camp.  It's like every time you're making a point, you need to qualify it in the next sentence.  This thread is now 20 pages long.  It's about Russia.  And only Russia.  Maybe there's a reason we haven't turned this into a game of whataboutism.  One more time.. read the link I posted above about why Russia and Israel should not and cannot be compared here.  By your logic, should the United States have been banned from Athens 2004 because of their invasion of Iraq?  The fact you can't find a label for what's happening in Gaza - and yes, it's horrific what is going on in the Middle East these last 3 months, as if this conflict wasn't brewed before then - is probably a good indication that the IOC does not need to "at least acknowledge" it for the sake of the Olympics.  What they did with Russia is an extraordinary step, but it is a justified response.  They're not going to discuss Israel in the same light, not should they.  And not just because "Gaza" is not an IOC member.

There's a reason for these buts. This subject is not a simple line that's direct and ends just as simply. There are conflicting sides with their own justifications, reasons and, bullcrap (i'm not sure if im allowed to cuss since im pretty new to this community). 

Also I never compared the situations of Russia and Israel? I'm just saying both are the aggressors of their own conflicts. And speaking of labelling conflicts, I personally view both as a War and an all-out genocide respectively. I already stated before that I do agree regarding Israel's impossible ban from the games, which also includes the IOC's inability to acknowledge the recent Gazan genocide.

Anyhow I wont be responding that much after this considering i've already added too much fuel to this fire, not that anybody asked me to do so in the first place. And the only reason I joined this community was just to share some concept logos lmao.

[StefanMUC]

One more difference: Unlike Putin, by the time the Olympics come along, the current Israeli government will probably not be in power anymore and sensible people will have taken over, cleaning up Netanyahu‘s mess. Whether Hamas terror has been stopped by then, is sadly another question.

[Sir Rols]

Sigh…

I’m hesitant to want to wade in here. Yes, it’s a very fraught topic, that divides many of us, mainly western, members here. Passions and opinions are high, and it’s hard to try and find a middle ground. I struggle myself to try to process the whole thing even handedly - if that’s even possible.

The easy one first. Russia only has itself to blame for its pariah status. Even before 2014, it had long thumbed its nose at Olympic ideals. Its whole record on state-sponsored doping had already put it outside the Olympic fold even before it planned, prepared and launched a blatant war of aggression and territorial conquest during the Olympic truce. And while the whole question of how harshly to sanction them is messy and never going to please everyone, at least it’s a debate being had, and at least doing nothing is not an option.

On Israel. For all the whole murky sh!t-show the Middle East has been since 1947, and for all the reasons Palestinians can feel aggrieved, in the immediate case of the current conflict, it’s highly incorrect to call Israel the aggressor. The attack that Hamas launched on October 7 was of such deliberate brutality and savagery that NO sovereign state could not retaliate. Which really was Hamas’ aim - it wasn’t so much about giving Israel a bloody nose, as ensuring they had to retaliate and thus radicalise a whole new generation of Palestinians and derail whatever faint moves towards peace or normality there were. Just as in 2001 Al Qaeda’s aim wasn’t to damage American capability, but to cleave a divide between the west and the Muslim world.

In both 2001 and 2023, the US (and allies) and Israel responded as they were forced to. And, yes, the scale or severity of those responses are absolutely up for debate and criticism. There were certainly individuals in Washington, and now in Tel Aviv, all too willing to pick up the gauntlet to further their own aims. But some form of retaliation was inevitable and necessary. It’s the forces of extremism - on all sides - that have connived to ensure any chances of moderation are but flickering embers. And the people of Gaza are now collateral damage and further away from any hopes they had before October 7. That’s on Hamas as much as Netanyahu.

Olympics-wise, it’s of little relevance to the IOC - apart from fears of any impacts it could have on security at upcoming games, especially Paris, as well as the difficult legacy the 1972 attacks in Munich left the IOC. If the IOC is to make a gesture, it would be best served to ensure Palestine competes as a team in Paris, alongside Israel, as a show that extremism has no seat at the Olympic table.  

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Sir Rols

[Bear]

1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

On Israel. For all the whole murky sh!t-show the Middle East has been since 1947, and for all the reasons Palestinians can feel aggrieved, in the immediate case of the current conflict, it’s highly incorrect to call Israel the aggressor. The attack that Hamas launched on October 7 was of such deliberate brutality and savagery that NO sovereign state could not retaliate. 

there is no doubt that the events of Oct 7 was, well in short, pure evil, but it does not give Israel the right to essentially decimate entire families, kill children, journalists, the people of Gaza who are simply trying to survive. Israel stopped being the victim long ago in this case.

(I would like to make it explicitly clear that I do not believe the Israeli government and state are representative of the innocent civilians and Jewish people as a whole - one cannot and should use discriminatory behavior and attitudes to support and defend other groups - the same goes for other situations)

3 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

By your logic, should the United States have been banned from Athens 2004 because of their invasion of Iraq?

i mean, if the IOC had balls, then yeah sure (and they should have totally done something about Russia in 2008 too, if we're going to bring up past examples)

4 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

The fact you can't find a label for what's happening in Gaza - and yes, it's horrific what is going on in the Middle East these last 3 months, as if this conflict wasn't brewed before then

i know you weren't talking to me, but i can think of a few labels...

4 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

And not just because "Gaza" is not an IOC member.

but "Palestine" is, and the actions of the Israeli government is undoubtedly going to affect preparations for Paris 2024 and beyond, which would be similar to this situation:

"While athletes from Russia and Belarus would be able to continue to participate in sports events, many athletes from Ukraine are prevented from doing so because of the attack on their country."

And obviously those in Gaza (part of Palestine) cannot participate in sport events when they're too busy trying to survive the latest bombing attack. Meanwhile it seems sports has resumed in Israel in some capacity, and while I do concede that Israeli sport has been affected a lot since Oct 7, it seems to be going much better than Palestinian sport...

4 hours ago, corn_zxl said:

And as for Hamas, I am in no way supporting the actions they have done (that may or may not have sparked this war in the first place). But compered to the Israeli government, what Hamas has done is certainly less than what the former has done. Nonetheless, it still does not justify the fact that their actions are what have in a way worsened the situation for both the Palestinians and to the Israeli hostages. another BUT, it also does not justify what some have called a "defense mechanism" on Gaza. I'm no peacekeeper, but I'm pretty sure 20,000+ deaths and the flattening of an entire settlement counts as anything less than a war. Not to mention this entire scheme has been happening for DECADES.

yep you pretty much said it well here, i totally agree (also welcome to the forums, glad to see more people here )

5 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Russia broke the Olympic truce in large part because they invaded Ukraine during the Olympics.  Israel did no such thing.

that is why i'm saying if the situation continues into July, because I agree that as of right now, the IOC has no true justification to sanction Israel. By July when the truce goes into effect, then the IOC can and should do something.

HOWEVER.... (continuing below)

5 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

or else you're going to sound extremely foolish thinking there's the smallest chance the IOC might sanction Israel.  If there was nothing happening with Russia, would even consider trying to make that case with Israel?  Of course not.

However I'm not naive, I know there's no way the IOC will sanction Israel, we all know this won't happen.

buuut they totally should if this goes on into July (which hopefully it doesn't...)

19 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

There is no apartheid in Israel.

Oh yes there is:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

19 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Jews and Arabs live peacefully side by side and both are allowed to thrive.

Peacefully?

[corn_zxl]

3 hours ago, Bear said:

there is no doubt that the events of Oct 7 was, well in short, pure evil, but it does not give Israel the right to essentially decimate entire families, kill children, journalists, the people of Gaza who are simply trying to survive. Israel stopped being the victim long ago in this case.

(I would like to make it explicitly clear that I do not believe the Israeli government and state are representative of the innocent civilians and Jewish people as a whole - one cannot and should use discriminatory behavior and attitudes to support and defend other groups - the same goes for other situations)

i mean, if the IOC had balls, then yeah sure (and they should have totally done something about Russia in 2008 too, if we're going to bring up past examples)

i know you weren't talking to me, but i can think of a few labels...

but "Palestine" is, and the actions of the Israeli government is undoubtedly going to affect preparations for Paris 2024 and beyond, which would be similar to this situation:

"While athletes from Russia and Belarus would be able to continue to participate in sports events, many athletes from Ukraine are prevented from doing so because of the attack on their country."

And obviously those in Gaza (part of Palestine) cannot participate in sport events when they're too busy trying to survive the latest bombing attack. Meanwhile it seems sports has resumed in Israel in some capacity, and while I do concede that Israeli sport has been affected a lot since Oct 7, it seems to be going much better than Palestinian sport...

yep you pretty much said it well here, i totally agree (also welcome to the forums, glad to see more people here )

that is why i'm saying if the situation continues into July, because I agree that as of right now, the IOC has no true justification to sanction Israel. By July when the truce goes into effect, then the IOC can and should do something.

HOWEVER.... (continuing below)

However I'm not naive, I know there's no way the IOC will sanction Israel, we all know this won't happen.

buuut they totally should if this goes on into July (which hopefully it doesn't...)

Oh yes there is:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

Peacefully?

You are a voice that echoes mine and others, I commend you for that. Also thanks for the warm welcome! 

[Quaker2001]

7 hours ago, corn_zxl said:

There's a reason for these buts. This subject is not a simple line that's direct and ends just as simply. There are conflicting sides with their own justifications, reasons and, bullcrap (i'm not sure if im allowed to cuss since im pretty new to this community). 

Also I never compared the situations of Russia and Israel? I'm just saying both are the aggressors of their own conflicts. And speaking of labelling conflicts, I personally view both as a War and an all-out genocide respectively. I already stated before that I do agree regarding Israel's impossible ban from the games, which also includes the IOC's inability to acknowledge the recent Gazan genocide.

Anyhow I wont be responding that much after this considering i've already added too much fuel to this fire, not that anybody asked me to do so in the first place. And the only reason I joined this community was just to share some concept logos lmao.

You're right that there is a ton of nuance to this whole conflict.  I appreciate that you acknowledge that.  I know you weren't the first person to drag Israel into this conversation, but you're still furthering the whataboutism narrative here that in a thread about Russia, it's worth taking a look at Israel based on an incorrect narrative.  I see the Hamas propaganda is working on you as well.  If you came to GamesBids to talk about logos, you are most definitely on the right website.

[Quaker2001]

6 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

One more difference: Unlike Putin, by the time the Olympics come along, the current Israeli government will probably not be in power anymore and sensible people will have taken over, cleaning up Netanyahu‘s mess. Whether Hamas terror has been stopped by then, is sadly another question.

I have little faith that this conflict will be over by then.  At most, maybe it has quieted down a little bit.  Don't know that we can assume Netanyahu will be out of power in the next 7 month.  At this point, it's not something I would be counting on