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Pyrenees-Barcelona-Zaragoza 2030


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14 minutes ago, fatixxx said:

the analogy of 2026 is that MİLANO is the western outpost and CORTİNA d'ampezzo the eastern outpost that overlaps şn total 3 provinces/regions, but at the complicated end the slogan is a miscue of the reslity on the ground as it says the following: DUALİTY, UNİTY .. an organization in 6 locations with 9 sub-locations .. 2026 will be the most widest winter olympşc games in history with a total overspan of (NOT LİNEER) a devistating 255 km between the outposts. How wil the italians will do the traffic-jam between those 9-10 sub/locations.. whereby the aragon province has a more lineer axes similar with sochi-and-beijing.

- torino 2006 was for the 1/3 more compact with 75 km between the outposts than milano is with its 255 km in not-lineer outposts..

- torino had in total 3 OV's OLYMPIC VILLAGES.. but couldnt find howmany OV's milano will have.. i suppose more than 3 will be construct

-AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST torino's mountain cluster was an organisation around 1 lineer-freeway the A32.. and thats why torino had a more compact organization with an outer-span of 75 km..

- milano-cortina nevertheless has an outer_span of 255 km.. (more than 3-fold of that of torino) organized on 3 to 5 not-lineer-freeway axes .. what about the rail-transportation of public to those 9-10 sub/venues. the cost only for transportation will be huge in 2026

- and as the choclate on the top of this organizational-complexity 2026 will held the closing ceremony at the hşstorical arena in verona max 30.000 capacity.. the question is: is this necessary? what about the transport of delegations and crowds from verona back to the hotels/airports etc.. it will cause only torment imho though..

 

vCgpUXO.png

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SUMMARY

city cluster > mountain cluster = distance in km (not/lineer)

TORİNO > BERDACCHİONE = 75 km lineer

ZARAGOZA > JACA = 140 km linear (2x distance torino)

MİLANO > CORTİNA = 255 km not-lineer (3x distance torino)

BARCELONA > JACA = 270 km not-lineer (4x distance torino)

in this case the decission is rapidly made, the spaniards have to switch from concept and perception and go radically for a zaragoza/aragon bid in 2030 or 2034.. and build 2 venues in zaragoza + 1 venue in huesca + build 1 sliding in jaca .. they can create in 10 years a spanish alpensia / pyrinea-resort ^_^

 

what is alpensia-resort >> Alpensia Resort - Wikipedia

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Can't they just buy one (or 2) of those tracks from cruise ships going out of business, connect them and VOILA!! you have a cheaper, ready-made sliding track!!  Those don't look like $100 million contraptions!!  B)

See the source image 

 

 

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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51 minutes ago, baron-pierreIV said:

Can't they just buy one (or 2) of those tracks from cruise ships going out of business, connect them and VOILA!! you have a cheaper, ready-made sliding track!!  Those don't look like $100 million contraptions!!  B)

See the source image 

 

 

Those would be kinda hard to keep in place with all those high-speed sleds running at it! :D

 

4 hours ago, fatixxx said:

in this case the decission is rapidly made, the spaniards have to switch from concept and perception and go radically for a zaragoza/aragon bid in 2030 or 2034.. and build 2 venues in zaragoza + 1 venue in huesca + build 1 sliding in jaca .. they can create in 10 years a spanish alpensia / pyrinea-resort ^_^

Now this... You might have a more workable idea than whatever COE is having with that bid. It would indeed keep the focus at the place where the action is mostly at, even though Barcelona part´s might be the thing made to lure that IOC votes. Of course, even there it would be problems to face, like making the resort and make it not get into bankrupcy, but it could happen actually? For a games, that could work.

The thing is: Can COE and Spain afford this bid without Barcelona? Will the IOC cares if this is the case? These two questions should be answered first, and then maybe think if it´s better to just bid Barcelona to summer 2036, stealing Madrid (political-social) spotlight to celebrate the People Olympics, saving the IOC of a 1936 renembrance? Future will tell. It wasn´t the favorite bid anyway, so they might as well have no regrets to try.

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16 minutes ago, Guilga said:

Those would be kinda hard to keep in place with all those high-speed sleds running at it! :D

 

Now this... You might have a more workable idea than whatever COE is having with that bid. It would indeed keep the focus at the place where the action is mostly at, even though Barcelona part´s might be the thing made to lure that IOC votes. Of course, even there it would be problems to face, like making the resort and make it not get into bankrupcy, but it could happen actually? For a games, that could work.

The thing is: Can COE and Spain afford this bid without Barcelona? Will the IOC cares if this is the case? These two questions should be answered first, and then maybe think if it´s better to just bid Barcelona to summer 2036, stealing Madrid (political-social) spotlight to celebrate the People Olympics, saving the IOC of a 1936 renembrance? Future will tell. It wasn´t the favorite bid anyway, so they might as well have no regrets to try.

 

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16 minutes ago, Guilga said:

Now this... You might have a more workable idea than whatever COE is having with that bid. It would indeed keep the focus at the place where the action is mostly at, even though Barcelona part´s might be the thing made to lure that IOC votes. Of course, even there it would be problems to face, like making the resort and make it not get into bankrupcy, but it could happen actually? For a games, that could work.

sorry for the mistaken submit above..

i think they could certainly build that resort OR pocket-facilities in different villages in 1 ongoingg lineer-area as the italians did with torino 2006.. spain İS a sports country in its veins.. they have to play for the first league of olympic winter sports.. for that aim they have to level up something.. buıld that sliding-track and organize a more clever wog than milano 2026..

for the sake of the spanish speaking world, its spain who can acclompish that.. mexico or argentina/chile are the only hispano-latin countries for those indispensable mountain clusters for the needed snow.. but otherwise their time-lap that the oic wishes is in february.. they have their summertime.. 

spain has the generation, intellect and passion to realise a decent wog, but dont have the clue about the how to create the concept and perception for the international emballage-market.. to much intern-barcelona-point-of-view-market creates a narrow view what could become awesome..

look i found a video about demolishing urban quarters in barcelona for their beloved SOGames in 6 years from 1986 till 1992 .. if they didnt went bankrupt back then, neither they wont now.. Zaragoza must be their concept-base.. they can show the ioc something totally fresh..

 

 

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A - let's have a look to TORİNO 2006

pocket-facilities spread over the eastern flank of maritime-alpes

1// look to the gliding-track facility of cesana village >> (it doesnt look professional, in de middle of simple greenery)

2// look to the ski-jumping facilities of pragelato village >> (just at the bank of a stream. does it look professional?)

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zJadvWO.png

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B - let's have a look to MİLANO 2026

pocket-facilities spread over the southern flank of dolomites

1// look to the gliding-track facility of cortina village >> (old track woven within the city-plan)

source >> Plans presented for renovation of Milan Cortina 2026 sliding track (insidethegames.biz)

- the cost-price for renovation is €65 million euros 

- does this give an idea for the renovation/reconstruction cost-price for the sarajevo-track

- why spending so much mony elsewhere when you could build it on spanish-soil

2// look to the ski-jumping facilities of predazzo village >> (next to a stream. does it look professional?)

- whats the cost-price to build a decent ski-jumping-facility?

- isnt it doable for the spaniards - spanish government - aragon/zaragoza region ??

- the italians did it TWİCE with no high proffessionalism.. why cant spain do it ONCE !!

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DNbvp36.png

 

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On 3/26/2022 at 6:47 PM, fatixxx said:

i dont think like you striker, its rapidly said in stead of thinking deeper about the winter-sport intentions of a sports-country like spain:

ITFP spain need those facilities to decrease winter-sport-engagement for generations to come, to perform better at each new wog. to commercialise they can be a center for wintersports for whole the spanish-speaking world and they could even organise hispano-winter-championships in apart winter-sports-branches that will leave a big legacy in the iberian country, because they will be the first & ONLY ones as winter facilities.. they want be elephants because they could built those in several middle-large/little cities..

i have reviewd the milano-cortina bid and they MUST/WİLL built SPEED-OVAL at VAL Dİ FİEMME, because they have none at milan.. they also have to expand/revamp/refurbish their biatlhon, ski jump, cross country venues.. EVEN curling will be hed in the village where they renewd d'AMPEZZO olympic sports hall of 1956 .. not iconic but efficient venue.. the italian economy is also not awesome nowadays, nor the spanish economy is but they have a lot in common.

the spaniards MUST build their gliding center, this would be the one and only big cost.. the chinese can built it.. the sarajevı gliding is not effectieve, because it is made of 100% concrete, whereas the new glidings contain wood/technological structures.. also the sarajevo gliding is squirming/twisting through forest/bushes and would be dangerous because of the fact that it would not meet the new norms and speeds/rapidities of new generation bobs etc..

ski jumping and ovals and half pipes can be rapidly build, even zaragoza can built one or two in a same complex.. the city renewed it city center and had their expo in 2008 that could be used as the medal ceremonies..

will post a new opinion about an eventual spanish wog bid without barcelona.. a new concept-perception is needed i think.. the name and location of barcelona spoils a lot of things.. the could ho simply for ZARAGOZA 2030/34

Spain is a summer sports country and they have severe public support issues at a time when their economy is in the toilet and public opinion is against excessive spending for Olympic venues that usually become white elephants. In terms of building an existing winter sports culture, it's an admirable goal, but Spain has so little winter sports history. They had no medals until a two bronzes in 2018 and a silver in Beijing. Spain has never had a ski jumper or a speed skater qualify as far as I know so building an expensive ski jump and speed skating oval at a taxpayer's expense isn't smart business. They would not see enough use to justify the investment (it's simple business).

I laughed out loud at the idea of the Chinese building a sliding track in the Pyrenees. That would be even more misguided. For that to happen, Spain would have to join China's famed Belt and Road Initiative which is basically legalized racketeering. If you're not familiar with it what China does is build infrastructure in mostly third world countries but does so at such excessive interest rates that these countries cannot pay back the loans and China goes in and literally repossesses what they've built. They've done this in Sri Lanka and supposedly in Uganda. Spain isn't joining the BRI and the Chinese aren't building a sliding track in the Pyrenees. The Sarajevo idea is ridiculous unless France and Switzerland have already said no.

The oval in Milan has been discussed at length and I suggest you revisit some of the posts on it so you get the full story. Milan has actually been discouraged by the IOC to essentialy rebuild the oval at Val Di Femme because of the excessive costs and use Arena Civica (an outdoor athletics stadium) as more cost friendly alternative. Italy really has no need for another oval anyway given the state-of-the-art Oval Lingotto in Turin which serves as the Italian team's main training base.

In terms of Zaragoza, for this to work, Barcelona has to be included. It has the transport infrastructure plus the much needed indoor ice arenas (Zaragoza only has one suitable ice arena in the Prince Felipe Pavilion). Not only that, but does anyone really think JAS Jr. who's clearly behind the torpedoing of Madrid's SOGs prospects really going to allow Zaragoza over his late daddy's hometown to be the center of a Spanish WOGs bid? No chance. It's Barcelona or bust.

 

 

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4 hours ago, stryker said:

They had no medals until a two bronzes in 2018 and a silver in Beijing. 

 

 

That is actually wrong: a gold in 72, a bronze in 92, both by the Fernandez Ochoa siblings in Alpine skiing.

The rest I fully agree with you.

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19 hours ago, stryker said:

Spain is a summer sports country and they have severe public support issues at a time when their economy is in the toilet and public opinion is against excessive spending for Olympic venues that usually become white elephants. In terms of building an existing winter sports culture, it's an admirable goal, but Spain has so little winter sports history. They had no medals until a two bronzes in 2018 and a silver in Beijing. Spain has never had a ski jumper or a speed skater qualify as far as I know so building an expensive ski jump and speed skating oval at a taxpayer's expense isn't smart business. They would not see enough use to justify the investment (it's simple business).

I laughed out loud at the idea of the Chinese building a sliding track in the Pyrenees ..

The oval in Milan has been discussed at length and I suggest you revisit some of the posts on it so you get the full story.

Barcelona has to be included. It has the transport infrastructure plus the much needed indoor ice arenas

but does anyone really think JAS Jr. who's clearly behind the torpedoing of Madrid's SOGs prospects really going to allow Zaragoza over his late daddy's hometown to be the center of a Spanish WOGs bid? No chance. It's Barcelona or bust.

 

best stryker, i admire your fluent text/comment you wrote.. and im aware of the fact that youve wrote the reallity.. in my view in a more pro-negative point of view whereby im writing more in a pro-active way.. this way of active-debate will certainly level-up things..

you say thesis, i say anti-thesis (or vice versa) and this forms syn-thesis.. this is/would be the actual outcome of a debate culture, so we create new ideas/thinkings/concepts/perceptions that will/can give fresh impulses towards everybody who are reading this worlds first-most gamesbids forum on earth.. the only platform with talented feedback for many people who are working to get the games around the world..

 

BUT: there are points whereby i do not aggree with (with all the missing knowledge that ive have build up in the last 10-15 years, because i didnt follow closly all the issues as you mentioned) 

- i believe in positive energy/writing and dont like in person the more pessimistic words like: the spanish economy is in the toilet.. i suppose it isnt worse then the economy of greece.. 

- that "usually-become-white-elephant-thing" is another thing i dont agree with, it is so a repetitive/cheap sentence thats used very frequently (even if im wrong - with no harming towards your qualitative text) actually to focus on this, ski-jumping hills dont become elephants, they are used in their own potential (per country)

 

- let me give you a contrast example for your next sentence and the follow-up:

"Spain has so little winter sports history, .." >> türkiye has ALMOST NONE winter sports history (but the only muslim country with participation in a wider range of winter-sports-branches at 17 or 19 attendances) + türkiye has yet to win a medal at a wog & thus has NONE medals whereas spain has gained 5 in total.. türkiye had for the first time 1 ski-jumper in 2018 and 1 speed-skater in 2022.. but respectively not qualyfied for further finals.. but those 2 men were turkish heros and became wog-idols in their country and a lot of young people felt the passion when they were on tv and the next generation boy/girl began to jumping and skating.. türkiye build its ski-jump facility in 2011 for the winter EYOF and revamped it in 2017 for the winter UNİVERSİAD..

>> do you really think that new generations dont want to jump/skate in spain ? is there a law or a reglementation that its forbidden for spain to built ski-jump facility, which is more less expensive than an oval ? is it forbidden for the spaniards to create a chance to begin with something even if they started wrong ? the COE can built these towards a a 2nd winter-universiad in the near future before a wog.. they have organised a winter universiad in granada 2015 with co-hosting of slovakia (for the same problem of) for the nordic and ski-jump.. it worked with slovakia for an universiad-scale .. they maybe want to try again the same formula.. but olympics are bigger/larger in scale then a universiad.. this formula wont work twice (for many)

source: 2015 Winter Universiade - Wikipedia

>> "I laughed out loud at the idea of the Chinese building a sliding track in the Pyrenees" : thanx for your honest sentence, i will take a step back about the chinese example, btw spain is not uganda nor sri lanka (the most remote example) .. BUT, i suppose you understood what i ment. the COE can go to international open tender en choose the cheapest consorsium to built the jump, gliding facilities and oval .. that would be also simple buisness as you mentioned.. if they go to erdoğan and ask for building those, than a turkish firm will do for the cheapest price as they did with the building of the olympic stafium in dakar/senegal..

>> about the oval in milan/val di fiemme.. i promise i will make time to read those posts/discussions.. but, striker you know, at the official milano-cortina 2026 website it says that they going to build that/new oval..

>> if barcelona has to be included as you say.. okay, but its better not to put barcelona in the center.. Barcelona doesnt need the bi-games etiquette as beijing 22.. with zaragoza they can have a 2nd official olympic-city in history.. they have to get rid of the arrogance and pride of the samaranch-legacy-thing İTS about the olympic legace that has to be the essential core of their bid, and not the ode to past away ioc people.. 

>> you say 'barcelona or büst".. <==> .. i say "no barcelona or nothing" .. no barcelona in the meaning of the olympic ettiquette.. if they need so much the needed venues in barca, okay lets use them.. but it can be succesfull if zaragoza is in the epicenter of the 2039/2034 wog.. besides zaragoza has also the same freeway infrastructure as barcelona, but the metropoles location is on a bad angle.. the distince between barca & jaca is more than 300 km IF BARCA is in the epicenter of the games..

>> List of ski jumping hills - Wikipedia in the world .. <==> .. the USUALLY white elephants in the world ??

1 in bosnia, bulgaria, turkey, estonia, kazhakstan, romania, slovakia, china - 2 in france, south-korea - 3 in czechia, japan, russia, switserlan,  - 4 in sweden, - 5 in canada, finland, - 6 in poland - 7 in norway, slovenia, - 8 in italy - 9 in usa - 10 in austria - 14 in germany <==> why would spain not be in the list with 1 jumping-hill for new generations ?

 

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next-generation-girls are training at the ejder-tepe ski-jumping-facility.. 

if türkiye can realise this with none wog-medal.. why spain cant realize it with better wog results ?

 

 

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Just saw that Aragon is proposing Figure Skating in Zaragosa?  Are they NUTS?  Putting the marquee sport in a minor city when the star/anchor city is BARCELONA which has already hosted major FS events and has a splendid venue for it?  Apparently, Aragon wants to scuttle the whole thing.  Why don't they just say so?   MUY STUPIDO!! 

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I mean at this point, are Aragon just gonna dump Catalonia and go it alone - if this bid has any future at all? Between Zaragoza, Jaca, Andorra, and whatever else is in Aragon (tbh I don't know any other cities there) is there enough for all the indoor sports that Barcelona would've had?

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Thats really the angle we are just gonna have to look at if this thing has any survivability.  Realistically, this is only going to be a Zaragoza, Jaca, Andorra bid.  Can that work?  Looking at the Real Zaragoza's La Romareda Stadium, its at 33,600.  That could probably work for the opening/closing ceremony.  But what else is there?  Does the region have the carrying capacity to take other projects on?

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7 hours ago, yoshi said:

I mean at this point, are Aragon just gonna dump Catalonia and go it alone - if this bid has any future at all? Between Zaragoza, Jaca, Andorra, and whatever else is in Aragon (tbh I don't know any other cities there) is there enough for all the indoor sports that Barcelona would've had?

Andorra is actually not even directly bordering Aragon. Catalán is official language (plus French), not Castellano. So politically, it would seem unrealistic to me to skip Barcelona and have Andorra only.

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Okay, a trivia question: IF (and I know that’s a huge if) the bid were to win, would Andorra become the smallest nation to stage an Olympic event? Did the Vatican feature in some way in 1960 (even just the marathon passing through)? Otherwise I’d guess it would be Hong Kong (equestrian 2008) or the Singapore YOGs at this stage.

@baron-pierreIV?

Edited by Sir Rols
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10 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Okay, a trivia question: IF (and I know that’s a huge if) the bid were to win, would Andorra become the smallest nation to stage an Olympic event? Did the Vatican feature in some way in 1960 (even just the marathon passing through)? Otherwise I’d guess it would be Hong Kong (equestrian 2008) or the Singapore YOGs at this stage.

@baron-pierreIV?

Probably so.  Of the world's tiny nations (the usual suspects - Lux, Leich, Monaco, Andorra, St. Marino, VC, Nauru, etc.) it indeed might be the only one.  In 1960, I don't think the marathon stepped on Holy See soil. (I understand the VC didn't want unwanted crowds on their property any more than necessary but either the 1956 Cortina flame which was lit in Rome's Capitoline Hill passed thru the Vatican and was blessed by Pius VI and/or the Rome 1960 Relay (lit in Greece) also visited the Vatican? 

I think a Winter Torch relay has passed through Leichtenstein (either the 1964 or 1976 Torch runs.  Oh, I think the Barcelona 1992 Torch Relay might've passed thru Andorra.)  Until then, it would probably be the premiere 2010 YOGs in Singapore.  
 

And then of the "regular" countries, I think it would be Belgium for Antwerp 1920 for the regular SOGs--as the smallest sovereign country to have hosted an Olympic Games.  

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