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Estanguet and Hidalgo are the only ones pushing the "city" ceremony.  I don't know that they have brought in the usual ceremony players - Balich, FilmStudio, Atkins, SpecTak, Papaionnau, etc., who will tell them how impractical it is.  Or they will just put in folks who will carry out what they want -- regardless of past experience in staging these things.  I doubt that they have had a serious talk with the IOC about it (and the IOC for now is just letting him talk it out).  


This was exactly the situation in NYC's early plans for the 1984 nod -- when it was still up against LA.  This was early days when it was just to get the USOC nod.. Bennett (head of the bid then) and I think Mayor Lindsay at that time announced that they wanted the Parade of Nations down Broadway, etc., etc.--  And then Munich 1972 happened -- and nothing came of that early "open" NYC plan.  And LA got the nomination mantle anyway; and even with their in-house producer in David Wolper, it became an in-stadium thing.  

The referenced article does say:  "We are still conducting the feasibility studies."

So Estanguet is just issuing these pronouncements for timely PR -- not entirely thought out.  And I bet he doesn't even want to hear what the insurance premiums from Lloyd's will be.  Ah, they're an Engleesh company.  What do they know?  

Well, it was 97 years since you guys last hosted.  

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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8 hours ago, baron-pierreIV said:

Estanguet and Hidalgo are the only ones pushing the "city" ceremony.  I don't know that they have brought in the usual ceremony players - Balich, FilmStudio, Atkins, SpecTak, Papaionnau, etc., who will tell them how impractical it is.  Or they will just put in folks who will carry out what they want -- regardless of past experience in staging these things.  I doubt that they have had a serious talk with the IOC about it (and the IOC for now is just letting him talk it out).  


This was exactly the situation in NYC's early plans for the 1984 nod -- when it was still up against LA.  This was early days when it was just to get the USOC nod.. Bennett (head of the bid then) and I think Mayor Lindsay at that time announced that they wanted the Parade of Nations down Broadway, etc., etc.--  And then Munich 1972 happened -- and nothing came of that early "open" NYC plan.  And LA got the nomination mantle anyway; and even with their in-house producer in David Wolper, it became an in-stadium thing.  

The referenced article does say:  "We are still conducting the feasibility studies."

So Estanguet is just issuing these pronouncements for timely PR -- not entirely thought out.  And I bet he doesn't even want to hear what the insurance premiums from Lloyd's will be.  Ah, they're an Engleesh company.  What do they know?  

Well, it was 97 years since you guys last hosted.  

I read that as feasibility studies on the various locations, not the overall concept itself. And this was from a press conference in Tokyo two days before the opening, no doubt following the Paris progress report to the IOC session. I’m pretty certain the IOC therefore know all about the plan and have raised no objections.  

As to not being entirely thought out, locking in the locations for release by the end of the year seems pretty heavily mapped out settled.

And as I said back in the Tokyo chat, France and Paris of all countries wouldn’t proceed if they didn’t think they could secure it. I’d expect it’s based on fenced off, security checked and guarded ticketless spectator areas like Olympic Live sites.

With less than 3 years to go and ticking, I think any hopes to the contrary are the denial stage of grief.

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It is just going to be a more gargantuan organizational effort if they do it right.  Would they lock in the Etoile around the Arc de Triumphe?  But putting in stands there and indeed securing could then cut off that area to the free, regular flow of both human and vehicular traffic -- for how long?   The Place Vendome is another public square -- but it is already a soulless one -- and I doubt that the Boucheronsm the Gucci and Carter storefronts there would welcome the presence of motley crowds right in front of their doorstep.  How can you hold anything around the Pyramide in the Louvre?  That would absolutely kill entry to the Louvre in the days it will be used.  

In addition, they would have to check the credentials of 5x, 6x the number of production personnel who would otherwise be involved in a stadium event.  Where will they station emergency vehicles in the event of an explosion or massacre?  Can they secure the Metro?  Can they secure all the balconies and rooftop sightlines for assassins? 

As far as the IOC is concerned, I think they are letting POCOG formulate the plans but can it withstand greater scrutiny when push comes to shove?   And as "bad chatter" becomes more active as the date approaches, I guess then it's "Let's retreat to Bunker Plan B back at the Stade."?  


It's nice to dream -- but this is how the crowds thought and acted out in the Revolution -- just all over the place.  But hey, it's their show -- and if they want more blood to flow on the streets of Paris, let it be on their heads . . . 

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A city wide Opening Ceremony is just crazy...

  • You cannot secure a whole city
  • If there is a major security incident at the Opening, the whole Games are ruined.
  • Athletes will have to be bussed to a ceremony through millions of people on the streets.
  • After midnight they will have to bussed through a city with millions of people on the streets- with competition occurring hours later.
  • You need calm and order at the beginning of the Games..the work is about to begin

Now the Closing makes more sense.

  • If there is an incident at least the Games are over
  • Many athletes will be in the city and can make there way to the ceremony.
  • Many athletes will stay in the city after the ceremony.
  • No need to rush back to the village to rest because the competition is over - the crowds wont matter so much.
  • Athletes, officials, volunteers will, be in  a party mood. At the Opening everyone is in the 'about to start work' mood.
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19 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

A city wide Opening Ceremony is just crazy...

  • You cannot secure a whole city
  • If there is a major security incident at the Opening, the whole Games are ruined.
  • Athletes will have to be bussed to a ceremony through millions of people on the streets.
  • After midnight they will have to bussed through a city with millions of people on the streets- with competition occurring hours later.
  • You need calm and order at the beginning of the Games..the work is about to begin

Now the Closing makes more sense.

  • If there is an incident at least the Games are over
  • Many athletes will be in the city and can make there way to the ceremony.
  • Many athletes will stay in the city after the ceremony.
  • No need to rush back to the village to rest because the competition is over - the crowds wont matter so much.
  • Athletes, officials, volunteers will, be in  a party mood. At the Opening everyone is in the 'about to start work' mood.

Totally agree.  Even a small fracas on the periphery of the 'secured" areas will destroy the whole "atmosphere" this whole free-thing is supposed to celebrate.  But hey, it's their show.  

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10 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

You cannot secure a whole city

But they’re not talking about securing the whole city (beyond the fact that organisers will try to secure a whole city to the best of their abilities during any games). They are talking about a few discrete locations in the city - we know only so far the Jardins de Tocadero used in the handover is mentioned by Estanguet as one of them. Others might be a Quai on the Seine, or around the Place d l’Etoile. As I mentioned, these would likely function as we already do Olympic Live sites - I remember going to the Hyde Park (I think it was) Live Site in London - the security seemed even more stringent to get in than some of the actual venues.

18 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

If there is a major security incident at the Opening, the whole Games are ruined.

 If there is a security incident anywhere in a city during an opening or indeed entire games, stadium opening or not, it’s a tragedy. Look at Centennial Park in Atlanta - just one reason cities and live sites have dramatically amped up their security in recent decades already. Paris, after their 2015 attacks on the night of a football friendly at the Stade de France, would already be acutely aware of this.

40 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

Athletes will have to be bussed to a ceremony through millions of people on the streets.

Athletes are already bussed to the stadium through the streets to the stadium for the OC, and then put into a holding area for anything up to hours till given their queue to march in. Little difference. And that’s what Olympic lanes and closures on the roads, which any host city resident is familiar with, are already for, to speed athletes and officials to various competition locations across a city without delays.

46 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

After midnight they will have to bussed through a city with millions of people on the streets- with competition occurring hours later.

See above. Plus already athletes who compete on opening day are excused from the OC. Indeed, I believe it’s up to individual athletes whether they go or not.

50 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

You need calm and order at the beginning of the Games..the work is about to begin

Of course you do. But residents, participants and organisers in any host city are always also gonna be fuelled by a lot of adrenalin, anticipation and nerves anyway. There’s partying and crowds in the streets already. You plan, you rehearse, you try to cover all contingencies and still you get caught up in the excitement.

I’ll own that I’m intrigued by and quite like the idea. I’ve made my fatigue with traditional stadium OCs known elsewhere on the board. I think using the magnificence of Paris itself as a backdrop could be more refreshing, spectacular and scene setting than anything that could be produced in a stadium. I don’t think it would necessarily be harder to do than a stadium OC, just a different type of challenge. I don’t agree that it’s an impossible or crazy concept. I understand that fans and followers of stadium spectacles might feel like they’re having their favourite toy taken away. I can respect that argument  more than fishing for reasons why it can’t be so.

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I mean if NYC can do 1million a year in TSQ for NYE, then I think it's possible in Paris, no? I'm only half-joking. I STILL HATE THE IDEA OF AN OPENING IN THE STREETS! I could get behind the Closing though...

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1 minute ago, Anthony said:

I mean if NYC can do 1million a year in TSQ for NYE, then I think it's possible in Paris, no? 

Precisely. Sydney’s closed off for throngs of millions to watch NYE fireworks on the harbour every year already. The Champs Élysées and Place de l’Etoile get blocked off for the 14th July celebrations and Tour de France finishing every year already. Closing off parts of a city for a big event with larger crowds is common.

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Q: Precisely. Sydney’s closed off for throngs of millions to watch NYE fireworks on the harbour every year already. The Champs Élysées and Place de l’Etoile get blocked off for the 14th July celebrations and Tour de France finishing every year already. Closing off parts of a city for a big event with larger crowds is common.

None of these examples had an entire Olympic Games starting 7 hours later.....again it proves the point that this experiment would be better for the Closing rather than the Opening. It is just risk management 101.

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8 minutes ago, TorchbearerSydney said:

None of these examples had an entire Olympic Games starting 7 hours later.....again it proves the point that this experiment would be better for the Closing rather than the Opening. It is just risk management 101.

You don’t think it’s already a major logistical exercise to move up to 100,000, plus athletes and performers, to and from the main stadium hours before competition? Or that opening night in a host city already sees throngs in the streets and Live Sites packed to capacity? That challenge is already there, it doesn’t change the equation. If anything, it possibly removes the biggest bottleneck of crowds, the stadium, from the equation.

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20 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

You don’t think it’s already a major logistical exercise to move up to 100,000, plus athletes and performers, to and from the main stadium hours before competition? Or that opening night in a host city already sees throngs in the streets and Live Sites packed to capacity? That challenge is already there, it doesn’t change the equation. If anything, it possibly removes the biggest bottleneck of crowds, the stadium, from the equation.

I'd argue it's a more controlled and contained environment when done at an Olympic Stadium. In the streets (while you can create boundaries and a security plan) it requires another level of logistics beyond compare to anything else.

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7 minutes ago, Anthony said:

I'd argue it's a more controlled and contained environment when done at an Olympic Stadium. In the streets (while you can create boundaries and a security plan) it requires another level of logistics beyond compare to anything else.

And I’d argue that it’s already done in the streets in the centre and natural gathering spots of a host city, through Live Sites and just partying throngs, whether the main attraction is in the stadium or not. Opening night is already party central citywide. The logistics of city crowds are baked in for the entire games anyway.

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1 hour ago, Anthony said:

I mean if NYC can do 1million a year in TSQ for NYE, then I think it's possible in Paris, no? I'm only half-joking. I STILL HATE THE IDEA OF AN OPENING IN THE STREETS! I could get behind the Closing though...

Those are just like 8 blocks -- and it's a freezing NY Eve's -- so that is a contained and controlled area.  And if so many events are happening at the same time around Paris, where would you be if you wanted to NOT miss any part of the program?  You, as a spectator, can only be in one of the chosen areas of the city.  You'll never see it all come together in the flesh.  And the live supporters they had there at the Trocadero in the Handover were all penned in and I am sure vetted before they went on the air.  Plus those are the few hundred who are surely among the first thousands to volunteer to work the Games -- so the "friendly" ranks.  You don't know those with hidden agendas.   Can't wait to see Paris 24's bill for magnetic detectors and police O/T.  And then Face Recognition programs are probably going to withstand legal challenges.  

Bet they'll need all the bomb-sniffing dogs of Europe that they can borrow -- not to mention all the attendant logistics of caring for those extra canines.  Not to mention the airports and Paris' 5 major Gares.  Who knows what crazy ideas Estanguet will want for the Torch Relay?  

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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1 hour ago, baron-pierreIV said:

You, as a spectator, can only be in one of the chosen areas of the city.  You'll never see it all come together in the flesh. 

That’s fair enough. I can accept that. But I guess the thing is, those spectators will see “their” segment live, and watch the rest of it come together as the rest of the billions around the world will, on the big screen there. And still catch the crowd atmosphere.

Yes, nothing can beat the atmosphere of being at an event in person, but the trade off is, you’re unlikely to catch all the nuances and smaller actions. If you’re in the nosebleed seats of a stadium for an OC, you’re caught up in the crowd excitement, but you’re likely to miss the performer on the opposite end f the field dressed as a harlequin and breathing fire or whatever. Like Klepsydra at Athens - from comments it appeared to be unimpressive at the stadium, but one of the crowd pleasers on broadcast. That’s the thing with being at a stadium event, ceremony or sport - you’re soaking in the atmosphere, getting an overview of what’s happening, but still looking up to and watching the jumbotron to catch the fine details and close up action.

And look at it this way. This would open up the pool of people who will be able to experience at least part of the ceremony by many many thousands compared to limiting it to just the 80,00 odd people lucky or rich and connected enough to watch it in the Stade de France.

Edited by Sir Rols
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Here’s my early and probably premature guess how this could play out. There’ll be a central anchor location where the main set pieces - dignitaries, flag raisings, speeches, parade of nations and cauldron, will play out _ I’m guessing the Jardins du Trocadero and Champs de Mars. And maybe three or four other locations where artistic portions will play out. The broadcast will start with a countdown at one, switch to the signatories at the main, then back to, say, aerial ballet or whatever at perhaps the Arc de Triomphe or a sans culottes dance number at the Place de Bastille, then switch back to the Olympic flag raising, then switch to the next artistic portion and location and so on and so on. The climax will be at the main location with the lighting of the cauldron which I predict could feature the Eiffel Tower.

I’d like to see the river feature somehow. Maybe the athletes could travel to the Champs to disembark for the parade via barge.  

EDIT: Well well! Looks like I’m right on that one:

Quote

The plan is to have the athlete delegations ride boats down the River Seine, which runs through the center of the city, including past landmarks such as the Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame Cathedral, the Louvre and so much more.

It’s estimated 300,000 or more fans could line the river to greet and cheer them.

“Delegations arrive in Paris by boat and cross this iconic city,” Tony Estanguet, the president of Paris 2024 said. “Hundreds of thousands of fans welcoming them. That would be amazing.”

Yahoo sports

 

Jeez, I can’t believe I’m so spamming a ceremony thread. Blame Sydney lockdown and not much else to do. Sorry all.

Edited by Sir Rols
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Hopefully Australia's lockdowns will be lifted before the opening ceremony of brisbane 2032 lol :P

Will be interesting to see how the street ceremony pays off but i am going to keep an open mind.

paris will need to just be super ready given the number of terrorist attacks in france over the last 15 years. yes there are risks within a stadium, but even more in a bigger area with lots more side streets and buildings.

Atlanta was lucky that it was just one domestic nutter and a pretty **** bag bomb, but paris 2024 will no doubt be a very lucrative prize for an international terrorist cell

Paris officials will just need to be on the ball with this plan and i hope that it all goes well. it is more likely to go without flaw but just be rubbish from a creative and artistic point of view a la world cup 1998 lol

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3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

And I’d argue that it’s already done in the streets in the centre and natural gathering spots of a host city, through Live Sites and just partying throngs, whether the main attraction is in the stadium or not. Opening night is already party central citywide. The logistics of city crowds are baked in for the entire games anyway.

Sure... but Live Sites aren't much more than an overcrowded piazza on a summer night in Europe. When you're talking about the choreography of more than 100,000 humans for a ceremony, it screams unrealistic.

2 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

And look at it this way. This would open up the pool of people who will be able to experience at least part of the ceremony by many many thousands compared to limiting it to just the 80,00 odd people lucky or rich and connected enough to watch it in the Stade de France.

I still don't think that trade off is worth it. The risk is far greater than the reward, in my eyes.

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53 minutes ago, Anthony said:

Sure... but Live Sites aren't much more than an overcrowded piazza on a summer night in Europe. When you're talking about the choreography of more than 100,000 humans for a ceremony, it screams unrealistic.

But that’s all these will be, Live Sites. With all the security and fencing these get now. And probably still would be used as the city’s live sites and be crowded with spectators needing security if the events were all happening in the stadium. And continue to be used as live sites in the weeks following. There’s no trade off - just shifting events to places there’s inevitably going to be crowds anyway.

Edited by Sir Rols
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3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

I’d like to see the river feature somehow. Maybe the athletes could travel to the Champs to disembark for the parade via barge.  

Remember in NYC 2012's plan from the Village on the Queen's side, then transporting the athletes to the Mets Life stadium on the Jersey side, the IOC stepped in early and said this ferry transport across both the East and Hudson rivers were a no go?  Unless they have secured the Seine at both ends, again, this is adding another nightmare scenario.  I know all this is just the dreaming stage -- but that is precisely where mischief can step in and ruin the day.  Who would have thought that terrorists would have trespassed the Athletes Village in Munich in 1972 and found where the Israeli delegation was staying?   Who would have thought that mobs would have almost overrun the US Congress a few months ago??  It's not like France's muslim young men are the happiest French citizens in the land.  Who displayed the most egregious behavior on FOP in Tokyo?  The young French boxer and the French marathon runner who dashed the water bottles on the table and picked up the last one for himself -- and I don't think he got sanctioned for it?  And this is from the nation that will be the next host country??  The signs are right there.  

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Re the Eiffel as a cauldron.  They'd have to take down a lot of transmission equipment to make it safe to put a flame up there.  I believe the Eiffel is the highest point in metro Paris which is why it is perfect for a lot of telecommunications equipment up there.  Or build above it - but I wonder how strong are the winds up there?  Plus running pipes for fuel for the flame 900 feet in the air, is going to be very risky.  And a lighting scenario even from the 2nd platform will be a very slow and laborious ascent for the flame for dramatic effect?  Imagine Muhammed Ali's feeble attempt in 1996 and then maybe 5x the height of that and 4x the amount of time for the flame to get to the top.  

Maybe atop the Arc de Triumphe -- if the French veterans don't object?  Or create a new cauldron tower?  Maybe s lower, smaller flame in that lower cavity of the Eiffel?  So something on a pedestal 15;-20' tall?  

See the source image

Or where's Mlle. Liberte when you need her??  :wacko:

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Actually, inside the Eiffel, between the 1st and 2nd platforms would be perfect (like, figuratively, glowing inside "the heart of the symbol of Paris") -- and people can easily take their selfies with the flame from the ground, without having to swarm the Tower.  

eca563747f20a22221382b4ceabff45f.jpg

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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