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Madrid 2036


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2 hours ago, baron-pierreIV said:

It throws off the entire training and competition calendars of most of the sports. 

Not if they happen in northern hemisphere summer which makes hosting in Brisbane no different to East Asia calendar wise.

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9 hours ago, iceman530 said:

And it hit me..........Valencia is building a new stadium that is supposed to be done by 2026.  But again, those are rabid soccer fans that wont tolerate a track bowl.

To add to what others have already said, Valencia is looking to complete its three-quarters built stadium. Work stopped on it in 2009 during the financial crisis, and its been in an unfinished state since. They say they'll complete it in the next few years but I'll believe that when I see it; it won't be the first promise to get the project going again.

15269227279510.jpg

Edited by Rob.
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22 minutes ago, Rob. said:

To add to what others have already said, Valencia is looking to complete its three-quarters built stadium. Work stopped on it in 2009 during the financial crisis, and its been in an unfinished state since. They say they'll complete it in the next few years but I'll believe that when I see it; it won't be the first promise to get the project going again.

15269227279510.jpg

It is like the Sagrada Familia of stadiums :P 

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5 minutes ago, Scotguy II said:

It is like the Sagrada Familia of stadiums :P 

That‘s supposed to be ready in 2026 too, just in time for Gaudi‘s 100th death anniversary. It did make good progress between my two visits 2000 and 2018.

 

Do I get it right that some suggest because Madrid can‘t build/convert an athletics stadium, they should organise the major key sport outside the host city in Sevilla or Valencia? I doubt that would sell well, even in a small field of competitors.

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Sevilla is even HOTTER in July than Madrid is.  I was there for Expo '92 a few days before we went on to Barcelona for the '92 Games opening, so I speak from actual on-site experience.  The heat in Seville is more brutal than Madrid or Barcelona that's why they run those awnings over the little streets of Seville.  The Expo drew crowds at night.  Holding another SOG in Spain outside of Barcelona or the Canarias is madness.  Might as well have the marathons and foot races in Visby or Lithuania.  

See the source image

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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So Spain wanted the Olympics during the financial crisis, but yet they couldn't finish a simple stadium, in comparison, because of it. Go figure. And all this talk about how hot it is there during the summer, & I was like really? So I had to check, but the average lows & highs are in the upper 80's & mid 60's. So I was like, that doesn't seem that bad. Then I checked the current weather, & it was OMG! Over 100 degrees all week long! :blink: That's even hotter than Tokyo was/is. I can't imagine any athletes wanting to compete in such dreadful conditions. But then again, it's a 'dry heat'. :P

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3 hours ago, FYI said:

So Spain wanted the Olympics during the financial crisis, but yet they couldn't finish a simple stadium, in comparison, because of it.

Not Spain, Valencia CF. The club couldn't finish it. Unlike in the US, clubs don't play cities off against each other to get the public to build their stadiums. They're not wandering franchises.

A Spanish Olympics, by contrast, would've had the security of public funds plus contingency funds for any issues.

So no, I don't think you can extrapolate from the fate of the Nou Mestella how a 2012 or 2016 Madrid Games would've fared.

Edited by Rob.
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6 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

 

Do I get it right that some suggest because Madrid can‘t build/convert an athletics stadium, they should organise the major key sport outside the host city in Sevilla or Valencia? I doubt that would sell well, even in a small field of competitors.

What other option is there? There's currently no football team in Madrid seeking a new stadium where an athletics track would be accepted. It's certainly not ideal but it would fit the New Norm philosophy of using what you have. In all of the much discussed reforms, there still hasn't been a viable solution for the athletics stadium outside of building a stadium that would have a permanent tenant after the Olympics or using a platform track in stadium with an oval shaped lower bowl. The stadium conundrum sidelines a lot of candidate cities that would otherwise check all the boxes (Hamburg, New York, Manchester)

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Okay, so, throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks in terms of track and field venues that dont yet exist, is it possible Madrid could ever become a three-team city ?  Revive an old historical club that dissolved, like Racing de Madrid, and make the new track and field stadium their home.  Encourage a rich owner to take a chance on them and make his own pet project.  Start them in like, the Spanish 3rd division, and let them fight their way up. Obviously, that would be tough, but is there even a hope or a prayer? We know Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid support is strong and robust, and that would be a hinderance to the project.  The fans would also instantly be called "plasticos" as well.  

For soccer, each city is its own dynamic.  London has Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal, West Ham, Palace in the premier league alone, not to mention what is below it.  Meanwhile, Berlin only has Hertha and Union.  Paris has PSG, but lower divisions have Paris FC and Red Star.  But, practically all of them have history, with perhaps Union Berlin being the exception.  

 

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Union Berlin actually has a long history under various names even since before WW2. They were on/off top division members in the GDR for many years, but only two years ago finally managed to get into Bundesliga.

Madrid already has Rayo Vallecano inside city limits, while Getafe, Leganes etc are suburbs, but no clue what stadium wishes they would all have.

Even with “new norm” I doubt the IOC would want to dislocate the core sport 3 hours away. 

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12 hours ago, Rob. said:

So no, I don't think you can extrapolate from the fate of the Nou Mestella how a 2012 or 2016 Madrid Games would've fared.

Directly, no. But indirectly, of course we can. All of Spain was suffering a financial crises, not just Valencia (hence their unfinished stadium to begin with). I'm sure most of the average Spanish citizens would've said back then that the gov't had much better, & more important things to spend their tax payer money on than Olympic bids. It's something the IOC took note of as well in their evaluation reports.

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10 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

 

Madrid already has Rayo Vallecano inside city limits, while Getafe, Leganes etc are suburbs, but no clue what stadium wishes they would all have.

Even with “new norm” I doubt the IOC would want to dislocate the core sport 3 hours away. 

Rayo Vellecano explored the idea of a new stadium back in 2009 but nothing ever came of it. The club just recently secured promotion to La Liga. Getafe's stadium was built in 1998 and they've explored expanding it from to 20,000 but the expansion never went ahead because there were concerns the capacity would be too high. This is the other issue. Even if a club like Rayo Vellecano wanted a new stadium, a 50,000+ seater is simply too big for the club's fanbase. Same for Getafe.

Given that along with the fact that Atletico Madrid likely wouldn't consent to an extensive overhaul of a stadium they own and I don't see any other option for a Madrid other than an existing stadium for athletics somewhere else in Spain.

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On 8/12/2021 at 6:30 AM, FYI said:

Directly, no. But indirectly, of course we can. All of Spain was suffering a financial crises, not just Valencia (hence their unfinished stadium to begin with). I'm sure most of the average Spanish citizens would've said back then that the gov't had much better, & more important things to spend their tax payer money on than Olympic bids. It's something the IOC took note of as well in their evaluation reports.

That's a fairer argument, one I can't disagree with much. But if Spain had won one of those bids it's not as though it'd be unique in hosting or working towards a Games during a crisis. Rio wasn't in the best place by the time it hosted, London had to publicly fund projects which were supposed to be privately funded (the village and IBC/MPC) because the banks stopped lending in 2008/9, and we all know what Tokyo has had to cope with.

Madrid would've pushed through and hosted a good Games. I would guess there might've been more noise and protests than we saw in 2012, but it would've ended up, similarly, with private projects taken on by the government out of necessity. Obviously not ideal, but I definitely don't see the Nou Mestella as a warning as to what might've happened in a different Olympic timeline in which Madrid hosted in the 2010s.

Edited by Rob.
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Speaking of grinning and bearing it, what about the option that the track and field stadium just doesnt have a tenant afterwards?  Kind of a crappy deal in terms of legacy but, maybe it can be a concert venue too?  We know Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid are never going to allow a track on their field in a million years, so is "no tenant" the next best alternative even with high risk of white elephant status?

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1 hour ago, iceman530 said:

Speaking of grinning and bearing it, what about the option that the track and field stadium just doesnt have a tenant afterwards?  Kind of a crappy deal in terms of legacy but, maybe it can be a concert venue too?  We know Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid are never going to allow a track on their field in a million years, so is "no tenant" the next best alternative even with high risk of white elephant status?

In a democratic country with taxpaying citizens, there's no chance at all. 

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13 hours ago, Rob. said:

That's a fairer argument, one I can't disagree with much. But if Spain had won one of those bids it's not as though it'd be unique in hosting or working towards a Games during a crisis. Rio wasn't in the best place by the time it hosted, London had to publicly fund projects which were supposed to be privately funded (the village and IBC/MPC) because the banks stopped lending in 2008/9, and we all know what Tokyo has had to cope with.

The difference there, though, is that London, Rio's & Tokyo's situations were after the fact (& Tokyo's troubles were certainly by no fault of their own & had nothing to do with their economy). Their respective Olympics were awarded when all their economies were in good standing. Rio in particular, finally got the nod because Brazil's economy was booming in 2009 when 2016 was awarded. And their economic output only appeared to be better going forward, on paper anyway. Surely, if the IOC knew beforehand Brazil's economic woes, they would've bypassed them & gone somewhere else. 

In Madrid's case, their only bid of their three consecutive ones that could be put into that same equation was their 2012 attempt. But 2016, & especially their 2020 bid, were done when their economy was very much in a tumultuous state. The were even going to call them the "austerity Games" because of the proposed cost-cutting (yet somehow, the Games were suppose to magically create so many jobs at the same time). Had Madrid won 2020 instead back then, & after everything that's happened, I think now that they ultimately would've been cancelled (especially when Coronavirus really wrecked havoc there). I don't think that they would've marched on like the Japanese did.

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Hmmm. I don’t know about that. While it’s ultimately futile to speculate, I think it’s a reasonable conclusion to say that 2020 was going to be postponed whoever had it, and that anyone who’d already gone through the investment and hard yards to early 2020 and were on their final stretch, would have been keen and open to try and salvage what they could in 2021. And don’t forget just 7-8 months ago, when the big call had to be made, with the vaccines arriving things were starting to look a bit more optimistic. Delta threw a big spanner in the works for everyone (not the least Japan and Oz who were a bit complacent with our relative luck last year). I see no reason a hypothetical Madrid wouldn’t have persevered and done much as the Japanese had to do. 

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Spain is also doing much better with its jabs than Japan https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

We're getting crowds for the opening fixtures of La Liga this weekend. It's not inconceivable that Madrid 2021 would've actually managed Japan's early 2021 plan of having domestic fans only.

Edited by Rob.
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Um, guys and gals, didn’t Rio teach you anything? Particularly in that your main stadium doesn’t need to be your athletics venue any more (though it makes for a fine ceremonies venue - and even that’s negotiable if Paris sets a new precedent). The Maracana was a showpiece venue, but of course suffers from the limitations most European and football-centric nations have - an athletics track was unwanted. 

A quick Google search shows Madrid hosts IAAF Grand Prix athletics events at Centro Deportivo and Vallehermoso. New or even temporary grandstands at either would likely solve concerns about capacity (which is also more flexible nowadays). I’m sure other out-of-the-football-box solutions could be devised as well.

As for heat - I see the average highs for Madrid are 32c for July and 31c for August. Both certainly acceptable. Even if it does peak hotter at times - I’ve also been in 40 plus heat in LA in July. Madrid’s is also a dry heat - usually more bearable than the oppressive humid heat places like Rio or Tokyo has. 

Edited by Sir Rols
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I don't think the two stadium solution is quite as easy as you're making out, or if it is, then the IOC/IAAF are going to be lowering their expectations quite a lot. Sticking 45k temporary seats up is fine, but what about a roof - ok maybe Madrid could get away without one, but what about VIP areas, what about transport which might not be able to cope with the extra flows? And when it comes down to it, do the IOC really want the stadium for the biggest sport to look like a lower-end CWG setup?

And it's not like Rio built a temporary second stadium from scratch. It added some temporary seats to an already existing, relatively large, high quality, roofed, athletics stadium. It's yet to be proven how such a set up would work in a city which is starting from a lower base as far as the second stadium goes.

As for the weather...I'm with you on that.

C'mon guys, the IOC was a gnat's whisker from awarding Madrid the Games only a year after Athens' heat-soaked Olympics. And Madrid has performed solidly on other occasions too. They've always been a strong candidate. We know the IOC see the weather as something of a concern, previous Evaluation Reports speak of vigilance, workaround solutions etc. They don't say it's anything like an insurmountable hurdle though! If Madrid is able to solve its stadium issue, I don't think the weather is going to stop anyone going there.

Edited by Rob.
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I’ve no idea whether either of the athletic stadiums are viable or not. From the pic I looked at of one, it had quite a nice recently built grandstand for 10,000 already on one side (but a grass track). Maybe neither would work, but the point I was trying to make is it’s possible to think beyond the football situation. Apart from vanity projects like Athens or Beijing, most stadiums since Atlanta have had to force some creative solutions on the athletics/stadium conundrum.  

Edited by Sir Rols
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Yeah, it's definitely possible to look beyond the Wanda Metropolitano solution (which apparently does exist and I'd be really intrigued to see it). But I'm not sure a two stadium solution is much more simple for Madrid. That's all I was saying.

All solutions are tricky. One relies on the goodwill of a football club vacating its stadium and we end up with a somewhat compromised bowl albeit a gorgeous stadium in other respects. Transport wouldn't be an issue for an area used to 68,000 fans.

Or we end up with a cheap CWGesque solution with all the potential issues I brought up in my last post.

Or we end up with an expensive but good-lookling semi-temporary stadium more like London but at a lower capacity (given London Stadium's upper bowl was literally just concrete stands, I'm not sure how much cheaper - say - a 60k version would be).

The outlier, as iceman says, is outsourcing athletics to another city. But surely not?!

Edited by Rob.
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