Removing hats during Olympic Medal Ceremony anthems (and other questions)

[MisterSG1]

I was just wondering this, generally when I've seen medal ceremonies and anthems, as well as anthems in FIFA tournaments, often I see those in the crowd with their hats on during the anthem. Is the custom of removing your hat strictly a North American (Canada/USA) thing?

I know the announcer at the Olympics says only, "The National Anthem of ___________", he/she doesn't even ask the audience to rise.

 

For those outside of North America, in domestic sporting competitions, is there any singing or playing of the national anthem before you start. Like do EPL matches begin with God Save The Queen? 

Every single "club" pro sports event I've been to has had at least O Canada sang, you'll hear Star Spangled Banner sung prior to O Canada if the opponent is based out of the US, which will happen with every single Toronto Raptors or Toronto Blue Jays game. So it was a huge shocker to me when I saw Toronto FC play in the CONCACAF Champions League that there was no national anthem(s) at all.

[Sir Rols]

In terms of Oz.

We’d only play the anthem if the national team is playing. Never for a club match.

In cases where it is played, sometimes we might be asked to rise for it, but not always. And not everyone would stand anyway.

I think you’d be laughed at as old fashioned if anyone asked you to remove your hats.  

[MisterSG1]

Just now, Sir Rols said:

In terms of Oz.

We’d only play the anthem if the national team is playing. Never for a club match.

In cases where it is played, sometimes we might be asked to rise for it, but not always. And not everyone would stand anyway.

I think you’d be laughed at as old fashioned if anyone asked you to remove your hats.  

Interesting, during every medal ceremony I saw at the Pan Ams, I did remove my hat and a fair amount of other people did. If you see footage of medal ceremonies from Vancouver, SLC, Atlanta, or even LA, you're most likely to see the crowd doing that if they're wearing hats.

Everyone, I mean at least 99% of the crowd stands when we are asked to "Please rise if you're able to, remove your hats, and welcome ___________ to perform our national anthem(s)"

Toronto FC's first ever international friendly was against Benefica from Portugal. In that game I remember the anthem singer performing both the Portugal anthem and O Canada just like at any North American sporting event (which is acapella). I remember them also facing Aston Villa and Bolton Wanderers in which there was an instrumental of both God Save The Queen and O Canada. MLS matches are like international soccer matches with the flags brought out during the procession.

[Sir Rols]

I was thinking about this, and the only exception with club games would be at a Grand Final. Now, and I’m talking Rugby League, we don’t have much in the way of international club competition. But the NZWarriors have made the Grand Final against an Oz club twice. I don’t know if both anthems got played on those occasions- any other Aussies here know? Ditto, we do have a world club challenge - our premiership winning team against the winner of the British Rugby League premiership. Again, I don’t know if the anthems figure, but as a guess guess I’d say likely they do.

I’ve attended three Olympics, but only had the pleasure of attending one Gold Medal ceremony where the Aussie had won. It was in London at the main stadium and while I stood for the anthem, not everyone around me did. 

  

[MisterSG1]

Thinking about the "hat" thing made me think of when Slash played the anthems for a Home Opener for the Toronto Blue Jays back in 2005

https://youtu.be/8mfhxoV7HUY

The legendary Slash walks in with that famous hat, and he conveniently has a stand to put his hat while he shreds both anthems on the guitar.

[MisterSG1]

7 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

I’ve attended three Olympics, but only had the pleasure of attending one Gold Medal ceremony where the Aussie had won. It was in London at the main stadium and while I stood for the anthem, not everyone around me did. 

  

Such disrespect by the fellow audience! I think during national anthems at Track and Field events that all activity should stop while an anthem is playing. I remember at the Pan Ams that athletes were still throwing during anthems being played. I don't know, maybe in North American Olympics, everyone will stand because it's so engrained in our sporting event culture to begin with.

[Sir Rols]

Ultimately, we’re probably more likely to be nagged to put a hat on - we’re taught to be very conscious of UV exposure!

[baron-pierreIV]

You can only remove your hat if you have been vaccinated and have proof for it!  

J/kidding.  The thing is the IOC is an artificially created organization, i.e., unlike the United Nations, therefore, all the respect for the Olympic flag, the Olympic anthem are just all un-enforced hoohah.  They have NO legal standing to demand that sort of decorum for anyone.  

[Rob2012]

On 8/7/2021 at 5:09 AM, MisterSG1 said:

Like do EPL matches begin with God Save The Queen? 

No, there are no anthems in club football with the one exception of the FA Cup final.

I'd guess we hear our anthem 10x less often than Americans hear theirs.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Rob.

[AmaniS]

From Formula1, most drivers and those from the teams do remove the caps for the national anthem.

[Sir Rols]

16 hours ago, Rob. said:

I'd guess we hear our anthem 10x less often than Americans hear theirs.

Lol! Same here. In fact it’s the running joke that most Australians (at least of a certain age) don’t even know the words of our anthem…

[MisterSG1]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:16 PM, Sir Rols said:

Lol! Same here. In fact it’s the running joke that most Australians (at least of a certain age) don’t even know the words of our anthem…

Isn't it, like how the vast majority in schools do it here with O Canada, played every single morning in school in Australia presumably with lyrics? It's hard to ever forget the words if you were forced to hear it every single school morning for 13+ years of your life.

With friends I have from the US, they didn't start school with the anthem but the Pledge of Allegiance.

On 8/7/2021 at 4:42 AM, Rob. said:

I'd guess we hear our anthem 10x less often than Americans hear theirs.

The use of O Canada at domestic sporting events in Canada pretty much mirrors that of how The Star Spangled Banner is used in the US. Generally, even in club sports, if a team based in Canada plays a team based in the US, then both anthems will be played, which as I said happens at every single Blue Jays and Raptors games as they are the only Canadian based team in their respective league.

[Sir Rols]

5 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

Isn't it, like how the vast majority in schools do it here with O Canada, played every single morning in school in Australia presumably with lyrics? It's hard to ever forget the words if you were forced to hear it every single school morning for 13+ years of your life.

Nope.

When I was very young, we used to sing God Save The Queen (this was pre-1970s, when we changed our anthem) each morning and recite “I honour my country, I serve my Queen and I salute the flag”, but that’s waaaay past. I just checked with my teacher sister, and nowadays they sing Advance Australia Fair after the school song just once a week, at weekly full school assembly.

We’re just not as overtly nationalistic here. I’m glad of it.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sir Rols

[Rob2012]

7 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

nowadays they sing Advance Australia Fair after the school song just once a week, at weekly full school assembly.

We’re just not as overtly nationalistic here.

I'll be honest, those two sentences seem like contradictions to me.

Our school assemblies had an erroneous injection of religion with a modern hymn and reciting of the Lord's Prayer in what was otherwise an entirely secular school, but we never heard or sang the national anthem. Doing that at all is such a bizarre notion.

Thinking about it, I was probably quite late into my teens before I knew the words to the first verse of GSTQ.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Rob.

[Sir Rols]

Fair enough. Sure there’s exceptions, but on the whole I just think we don’t really treat the anthem as hand on heart sacredly as the Americans - as I said we joke that hardly anyone even knows the words. Just as you don’t see flags out the front of homes as is common in front of many US homes. Getting the southern cross tattooed on you these days is seen by most as borderline fascist.

The most patriotic I’ve ever felt, and I’ve felt a crowd to be, was the night before Sydney 2000 opened, and thousands of us were at Sydney Town Hall to see the flame’s penultimate stop. And an Aussie folk singer, Slim Dusty, played Waltzing Matilda on guitar and everyone, all the thousands, joined in with gusto. THAT was emotional. It touched a core. I don’t think our anthem carries that type of emotion for us.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sir Rols

[Rob2012]

I think this is what they call the narcissism of small differences. You're definitely much closer to us with regard to anthems than America.

[Sir Rols]

9 hours ago, Rob. said:

I think this is what they call the narcissism of small differences. You're definitely much closer to us with regard to anthems than America.

Vive La Differance Indeed! What piqued my interest in your description was the mention of hymns and prayers. The only thing remarkable about religion here, at least in state schools, is it’s total absence. Former-PM Tony Abbott (the arch-conservative, royalty worshipping, former priest in training equivalent to Boris Johnson without the charisma) tried to introduce school chaplains, but that was really controversial and shouted down in our secular state.

[Sir Rols]

Okay, and I know this is only tangentially related to sport, but a question to MisterSG1 (or maybe more to the US members here, though it’s starting to sound like the Canadian school system is very similar to the States), what is the whole deal behind American school culture?

What I mean is, we see a lot of US high school movies and tv shows. And it seems like everything is structured around the school football/basketball/hockey team (Shermer High - home of the Wildcats!). The team are the stars of the school, cheerleading is the pinnacle for the female students and exists to support the boys’ team. The music classes are there mainly to put together a band to play at the school matches, which all students attend and cheer for en masse. Social committees exist purely to organise events based around the team, like Homecoming. WTF is Homecoming??? Is it something like the first home game of the school team for the season? Why is the Homecoming Dance such a big deal, with a Homecoming King and Queen (usually the star quarterback and head cheerleader)? Is this all just some cliche that bears no resemblance to reality? But it seems too ubiquitous in entertainment to be pure fiction.

About the only equivalent I see in Oz is we have something similar to the Senior Prom, in our case the Year 12 (final year) Formal. But that’s more of a formal attire, sit-down dinner at a ritzy hotel with dancing afterwards, like a wedding party. None of this tradition that you must have a date and bring her a corsage (though, I believe Aussie kids today are adopting some things they see in the US shows, like hiring limos to take them there).

How much of this idealised US school culture is fantasy and how much reality?

Don’t get me started on the college fraternity and sorority systems.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sir Rols

[Rob2012]

57 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

Vive La Differance Indeed! What piqued my interest in your description was the mention of hymns and prayers. The only thing remarkable about religion here, at least in state schools, is it’s total absence.

Technically, my school was applying the law as it existed (and still exists). That all schools should have a collective, daily act of worship "of a broadly Christian character". Many schools ignore this or get round it in other ways because it's pretty archaic*. Mine didn't. So we had this oddity.

 

* Though of course this backwards government is now going to try to enforce it - https://www.tes.com/news/schools-may-be-investigated-over-daily-collective-worship-duty

 

[MisterSG1]

4 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Okay, and I know this is only tangentially related to sport, but a question to MisterSG1 (or maybe more to the US members here, though it’s starting to sound like the Canadian school system is very similar to the States), what is the whole deal behind American school culture?

What I mean is, we see a lot of US high school movies and tv shows. And it seems like everything is structured around the school football/basketball/hockey team (Shermer High - home of the Wildcats!). The team are the stars of the school, cheerleading is the pinnacle for the female students and exists to support the boys’ team. The music classes are there mainly to put together a band to play at the school matches, which all students attend and cheer for en masse. Social committees exist purely to organise events based around the team, like Homecoming. WTF is Homecoming??? Is it something like the first home game of the school team for the season? Why is the Homecoming Dance such a big deal, with a Homecoming King and Queen (usually the star quarterback and head cheerleader)? Is this all just some cliche that bears no resemblance to reality? But it seems too ubiquitous in entertainment to be pure fiction.

About the only equivalent I see in Oz is we have something similar to the Senior Prom, in our case the Year 12 (final year) Formal. But that’s more of a formal attire, sit-down dinner at a ritzy hotel with dancing afterwards, like a wedding party. None of this tradition that you must have a date and bring her a corsage (though, I believe Aussie kids today are adopting some things they see in the US shows, like hiring limos to take them there).

How much of this idealised US school culture is fantasy and how much reality?

Don’t get me started on the college fraternity and sorority systems.

I can't really help you there either, mate. Generally, sports at the high school level and collegiate level here no one really cares about. Which brings me to my first point, across Canada, and I assume like the commonwealth, the words "college" and "university" refer to two distinct institutions. Someone goes to "university" in Canada when speaking of a place that grants degrees like say Cambridge University. A college in Canada usually refers to a "community college".

In Canada, like the US, the years are called "grades", but usually, what grade a student is in is almost always referred to as Grade X. Rather than in the US where Xth Grade is more common. The US terms for the high school grades are not used here, you know, Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior. However, the final year at least in Ontario I've heard as a senior year in some ways for example when some students speak of a "Senior Prank". While Ontario here in Canada has 4 grades in high school, I believe other provinces like Newfoundland have just three grades in high school that start at Grade 10.

Which brings me to Senior Prom, yes Senior Prom does happen in Canada, I didn't go to my own because I was sort of an outcast so to speak. But the whole package like hiring limos and showing up in tuxedos happens here.

The Homecoming Dance, and all the homecoming stuff, I have no clue what it means. 

 

I know depending where you are in the US, high school football is quite the big deal.  I'm sure that most students who go to US High Schools aren't involved with the athletic or cheerleading aspects anyways. As in the end that would be a small amount of the typical student body. The NFL doesn't play on Friday or Saturdays during most of the Fall because if I recall there's a federal law in place to not compete with high school and college football. Traditionally, in the US, high school football plays on Friday, college football plays on Saturday, and pro football plays on Sunday. But football itself is a totally different beast in Canada, they play football with a totally different ruleset in Canada, it's the same game as gridiron yeah, but the field size, amount of downs, time rules are different. When it comes to the professional ranks of Canadian Football, the CFL, going to any Toronto Argonauts game, you'll find mostly baby boomers who attend the games now. Case in point, I'm a mature student of engineering at Ryerson University, (an institution in the heart of downtown Toronto) I knew quite of my fellow students who could name many teams in the NFL but not any team from the CFL, or the fact that the rules are different.

As you know at the collegiate level in the US, schools offer full scholarships entirely on students' abilities to play sports. None of that exists here. 

There was one game where Ryerson faced Duke in an exhibition. There was a player from Mississauga who just signed on to Duke, and thus the crowd at the game was actually openly rooting for Duke over Ryerson, it was shocking lol.

The only time Ryerson will ever be on an ESPN broadcast.

 

Finally, one time when the early rounds of the NCAA March Madness tournament were held in Buffalo, that was back in 2017. I found it funny those games didn't have the national anthem, and there were a very small amount of actual diehards. All what either team had with them were a few cheerleaders and a band. 

 

As for use of the national anthem in school, my parents recall (even though they grew up in Newfoundland) that it was pretty much the same way as you describe it, in that "God Save The Queen" was sang at assemblies only.

This is all I can help you with regarding this matter,

[Sir Rols]

9 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

I can't really help you there either, mate.

 

Np, wasn’t sure if Canadian schools bought into all that stuff too.

11 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Which brings me to my first point, across Canada, and I assume like the commonwealth, the words "college" and "university" refer to two distinct institutions. Someone goes to "university" in Canada when speaking of a place that grants degrees like say Cambridge University. A college in Canada usually refers to a "community college".

 

Same here - we got to university, or “uni” to get a University degree, or uni degree. Colleges are either, as you say, community colleges or some residential colleges on university grounds - I guess close to US dorms or perhaps frat houses. But in terms of what we see of frat houses in US movies, it looks like their only purpose is to provide a venue for debaucheries.

[MisterSG1]

3 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

Np, wasn’t sure if Canadian schools bought into all that stuff too.

Same here - we got to university, or “uni” to get a University degree, or uni degree. Colleges are either, as you say, community colleges or some residential colleges on university grounds - I guess close to US dorms or perhaps frat houses. But in terms of what we see of frat houses in US movies, it looks like their only purpose is to provide a venue for debaucheries.

I know University of Toronto actually has some fraternities, but I know they don't have that same kind of debauchery role you speak of. I've heard the term "dorm" used in the Canadian sense, but I believe "residence" is more common. Nevertheless, if you said "dorm" people know what you're talking about. Ryerson University for the most part is more or like a "super high school", in that most students live in the Greater Toronto Area and make the commute each day downtown and go home when class is over. (even though we haven't done that at all in quite some time)

As for athletics, it's a shame too, because Ryerson has such a nice arena, sure not as big as the top US schools, but they occupy the top floor of the legendary Maple Leaf Gardens, where the Toronto Maple Leafs from 1931-1999.

Remember the Curling event at the 2018 PyeongChang Olympics? Team Shuster of Minnesota took home the gold? Because of winning that gold, Team Shuster got invited to one of the top world curling events that have been held at Ryerson the last few years. Incidentally, I wondered how Team Shuster would play against Team Gushue, and well Team Shuster didn't make it passed the group stage. 

This venue, as relating to Olympics was used for basketball for the Pan Am Games and wheelchair basketball for the Parapan Am Games.

[Durban Sandshark]

On 8/9/2021 at 10:12 PM, MisterSG1 said:

I can't really help you there either, mate. Generally, sports at the high school level and collegiate level here no one really cares about. Which brings me to my first point, across Canada, and I assume like the commonwealth, the words "college" and "university" refer to two distinct institutions. Someone goes to "university" in Canada when speaking of a place that grants degrees like say Cambridge University. A college in Canada usually refers to a "community college".

In Canada, like the US, the years are called "grades", but usually, what grade a student is in is almost always referred to as Grade X. Rather than in the US where Xth Grade is more common. The US terms for the high school grades are not used here, you know, Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior. However, the final year at least in Ontario I've heard as a senior year in some ways for example when some students speak of a "Senior Prank". While Ontario here in Canada has 4 grades in high school, I believe other provinces like Newfoundland have just three grades in high school that start at Grade 10.

Which brings me to Senior Prom, yes Senior Prom does happen in Canada, I didn't go to my own because I was sort of an outcast so to speak. But the whole package like hiring limos and showing up in tuxedos happens here.

The Homecoming Dance, and all the homecoming stuff, I have no clue what it means. 

 

I know depending where you are in the US, high school football is quite the big deal.  I'm sure that most students who go to US High Schools aren't involved with the athletic or cheerleading aspects anyways. As in the end that would be a small amount of the typical student body. The NFL doesn't play on Friday or Saturdays during most of the Fall because if I recall there's a federal law in place to not compete with high school and college football. Traditionally, in the US, high school football plays on Friday, college football plays on Saturday, and pro football plays on Sunday. But football itself is a totally different beast in Canada, they play football with a totally different ruleset in Canada, it's the same game as gridiron yeah, but the field size, amount of downs, time rules are different. When it comes to the professional ranks of Canadian Football, the CFL, going to any Toronto Argonauts game, you'll find mostly baby boomers who attend the games now. Case in point, I'm a mature student of engineering at Ryerson University, (an institution in the heart of downtown Toronto) I knew quite of my fellow students who could name many teams in the NFL but not any team from the CFL, or the fact that the rules are different.

As you know at the collegiate level in the US, schools offer full scholarships entirely on students' abilities to play sports. None of that exists here. 

There was one game where Ryerson faced Duke in an exhibition. There was a player from Mississauga who just signed on to Duke, and thus the crowd at the game was actually openly rooting for Duke over Ryerson, it was shocking lol.

The only time Ryerson will ever be on an ESPN broadcast.

 

Finally, one time when the early rounds of the NCAA March Madness tournament were held in Buffalo, that was back in 2017. I found it funny those games didn't have the national anthem, and there were a very small amount of actual diehards. All what either team had with them were a few cheerleaders and a band. 

 

As for use of the national anthem in school, my parents recall (even though they grew up in Newfoundland) that it was pretty much the same way as you describe it, in that "God Save The Queen" was sang at assemblies only.

This is all I can help you with regarding this matter,

Very much know who the player from Mississauga you're talking about from Duke: Rowan Barrett Jr., now playing for the New York Knicks and son of former Canadian national basketball team player Rowan Barrett. Barrett's dad played for St. John's in NYC during 1992-1996 and was later signed by the Toronto Raptors and Philadelphia 76ERS later in the 1990s but never saw regular season NBA action. Rowan the elder was part of the last Canadian men's basketball team to make the Olympics with Sydney lead by Steve Nash and now runs the senior men's program. RJ is a rising star with Puma endorsement and is set to be a mainstay on Team Canada for years to come; he has won the FIBA U18 title for Canada in Egypt over the USA a few years back. 

Guess what? I'm the rare American who seriously follows Canadian college/university basketball, and do know about the Ryerson Rams beyond the Duke's Canada excursion. Right now, they are the best Toronto-based university basketball program (both men and women) in Ontario over the likes of University of Toronto Varsity Blues and York Lions. Not counting the Hamilton-based McMaster Marauders and other schools based in the GTA stretching far out to Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Kingston, London, and even Windsor and even through the Golden Horseshoe to Niagara like Brock. Yes, they too play in the MLG for home games and once hosted the national championship there in 2014. Roy Rana was head coach of Ryerson at the time and helped took the program to unprecedented heights but falling short of the national title. Rana is now part of Luke Walton's Sacramento Kings' coaching staff. Also, unlike in the NCAA, schools in what I still call the CIS normally don't play against teams outside their regional/provincial conferences except for the Final 8 Nationals and pre-season and winter break tournaments staged between late November-early January. Four conferences make up the CIS: Canada West (BC. Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba unis), OUA (Ontario-only ones), Quebec's RSEQ, and AUS for universities based in the Atlantic Canada/Maritimes provinces.  It would indeed be extremely rare for Ryerson to nab this American mainstream sports pub, and this is only because of Barrett's attraction and Duke's willingness to capitalize on his Canada homecoming.

Before I delve into what SirRols discuss on American high school practices, let me first say that I still greatly despise my high school as an institution with a massive passion for multiple things like the racism and classism being a semi-outsider back then years ago. Leaves me with the impression that it--and largely the people who operate them--doesn't want to change fundamentally from it was/is and is thus rather conservative in structure while not learning or willing to change paradigms and better reflect the rising multiculturalism and multiethnicism in the students. Not really pro-student and more like police states. Often reflects middle class norms, values, perspectives, expectations, anxieties, fears, organizations, proprieties, aesthetics, and myopias that are getting, IMO, rapidly outdated as they stand. Will save that for another time in extension.

High school football is a major deal. Like for example Texas. In lots of cases, it's the only big-time local entertainment in sports the community can easily rally around towards despite other HS sports. American football is THE popular team sport in the USA at every level. Basketball is not that far behind. For my time in high school, of which I refer to as my ex-wife sometimes, both teams sucked although the varsity football team did gradually improve for a postseason taste but not near enough for state title contention. Our boys' soccer team WAS and won a state title during my senior year--one of the only few damn good things that came out of my time there. I was friendly with several members of the soccer team. My guess with sports and cheerleaders and musical bands and dances in high schools is that, in comparison to many other nations outside of the USA and Canada, secondary schools worldwide are not athletic and cultural factories. You are there in these institutions for education and practical usage. Clubs there take care of those aspects, so it's fascinating to see all this in schools from influential nations like the USA. All those things we're talking about, they provide a sense of levity and a calling card to the high schools in question; simple, take all those away and there wouldn't be a strong cultural sense that people can gravitate too. Or make their lives more bearable to students. Does share a lot of power whenever, say, the high school football coach requests to the school board for a locker and weight room upgrade in the school district's budget--and would grant that as opposed to needing new electronic math equipment. Student councils do seem to base around events like Homecoming and Prom. Homecoming, as the name applies I think, has something to do with school alums coming back to the high schools and colleges/universities and celebrating. From where I'm from in the Midwest at least but does seems national, Homecoming happens to be during October and peer social popularity at dance events manifests itself in voting for king and queen to the point of stereotype and cliche. Never went, partly due to my semi-outcast status. Jocks and cheerleaders seem to readily embody social popularity status seemingly built-in into those capacities based on long-running and traditional social constructs on attractiveness, virility, athleticism, social currency, and masculinity. We grew up with those high school film/TV tropes too over the years but is changing.