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This bid is a no go, and I expect the COC will probably deep six it if Vancouver is serious about another go. It's not just the downhill skiing with La Massif (the 2030 proposal claims that using La Massif with an extended ramp to meet the 800m vertical drop requirement was accepted by the FIS in 2002 but I have questions whether or not that would still be accepted). A Quebec bid would require massive infrastructure investment. Quebec has one suitable arena for ice events (Videotron Centre). The Pepsi Coliseum, the longtime home of the Quebec Nordiques, is slated for demolition. The closest speed skating oval is Calgary. To solve the ice arena issues, Quebec would probably have to partner with Montreal. Quebec also lacks a stadium suitable for the ceremonies.

The biggest drawback though from the proposal is using the ski jumps and sliding track in Vancouver. Why send athletes from one side of the country to another when Vancouver can host an entire WOGs? It's illogical. If Vancouver isn't ready to go, Canada would be better off sitting out the 2030 race altogether. A Quebec bid would require too much investment and be too spread out regionally when Vancouver can host about as close to a compact WOGs with existing infrastructure and minimal costs.

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It really is a shame that Quebec City is not suitable, though. It's probably the most European city in North America, has a long tradition of winter sports (even without the NHL), and is certainly cold and snowy enough for a winter games.

Quebec-winter-2.jpg

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Who wrote their horrible supporting document? While it's bad form to start off by slagging the snow in Pyeongchang, it's kinda made worse by the fact they don't have a downhill mountain and are probably looking for help from past Winter Olympic hosts way out in Western Canada.

I like Quebec City and think they would make a magical Winter Olympic host, but they have a lot to sort out. 

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On 4/24/2021 at 5:52 AM, stryker said:

This bid is a no go, and I expect the COC will probably deep six it if Vancouver is serious about another go. It's not just the downhill skiing with La Massif (the 2030 proposal claims that using La Massif with an extended ramp to meet the 800m vertical drop requirement was accepted by the FIS in 2002 but I have questions whether or not that would still be accepted). A Quebec bid would require massive infrastructure investment. Quebec has one suitable arena for ice events (Videotron Centre). The Pepsi Coliseum, the longtime home of the Quebec Nordiques, is slated for demolition. The closest speed skating oval is Calgary. To solve the ice arena issues, Quebec would probably have to partner with Montreal. Quebec also lacks a stadium suitable for the ceremonies.

The biggest drawback though from the proposal is using the ski jumps and sliding track in Vancouver. Why send athletes from one side of the country to another when Vancouver can host an entire WOGs? It's illogical. If Vancouver isn't ready to go, Canada would be better off sitting out the 2030 race altogether. A Quebec bid would require too much investment and be too spread out regionally when Vancouver can host about as close to a compact WOGs with existing infrastructure and minimal costs.

Quebec has most of the indoor venues, many of which were proposed during the 2002 bid.

The Videotron Centre - Ice Hockey I
Pavilion de la Jeunesse - Ice Hockey II
Saint Romuald Arena - Curling
Gaetan Boucher Speed Skating Oval (which will need a roof) - Speed Skating

What will be needed is an arena for Short Track Speed Skating and Figure Skating. But this can be solved with a new indoor stadium that could also serve ceremonies. It can be built on the former site of Quebec Coliseum.

The alternative to Saint Romuald Arena, is the nearby Complexe 2 Glace Honco. It has a main ice rink that seats 925 people. It could potentially be expanded and renovated for at least 3,000. Remove the roof, the non grandstand side wall and roller doors, expand seating etc.


There is now potential legacy in proposing the Ski Jumps and Sliding Track (They could reuse the plans from 2002), as Calgary seems to be abandoning/downsizing theirs and therefore not making them competition capable.

The only real hurdle is the 800m vertical for Men's Downhill. But if the FIS accept a mere 30m ramp and the finishing area on river barges, then it's not much of an issue, as the rail track that once dotted the mountain side is now mostly tunneled and Le Massif had indeed got further vertical through the intoduction of a new piste created in the 2000's.

It's simply a matter of will, as well as costs. Quebec could surely do it alone.

Edited by Lord David
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In addition to this, the proposed site for Athletes' Accommodation would be the same as in 2002, Laval University. The difference to 2002, is that the whole of the PEPS complex would now be exclusively for use by athletes. For 2002, it was proposed to host Ice Hockey II.

Media could be either housed in cruise ships or ideally in their own dedicated village, which could be turned into residential housing post Paralympics.

Quebec has some hurdles, but it certainly needs a proper bid team to propose the best bid it can and not have to make so many concessions.

Complexe 2 Glace Honco, which is right next to Saint Romuald Arena is definitely the ideal choice for Curling. Expand it to the minimum 3,000 (ideally 4,000) add an indoor legacy pool and other amenities. It already has a 150 seat restaurant, a bar and a fan shop, amongst other amenities. It has 2 rinks, in which the secondary one would be the training area for Curling.

Turns out, Gaetan Boucher Speed Skating Oval is now indoors as the Centre de glaces de Québec and seats 2,500, which is almost completed. It might need to be expanded for an Olympics, but it's perfectly capable now of hosting Speed Skating.

Edited by Lord David
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On 6/29/2021 at 7:09 AM, Lord David said:

Quebec has most of the indoor venues, many of which were proposed during the 2002 bid.

The Videotron Centre - Ice Hockey I
Pavilion de la Jeunesse - Ice Hockey II
Saint Romuald Arena - Curling
Gaetan Boucher Speed Skating Oval (which will need a roof) - Speed Skating

What will be needed is an arena for Short Track Speed Skating and Figure Skating. But this can be solved with a new indoor stadium that could also serve ceremonies. It can be built on the former site of Quebec Coliseum.

The alternative to Saint Romuald Arena, is the nearby Complexe 2 Glace Honco. It has a main ice rink that seats 925 people. It could potentially be expanded and renovated for at least 3,000. Remove the roof, the non grandstand side wall and roller doors, expand seating etc.


There is now potential legacy in proposing the Ski Jumps and Sliding Track (They could reuse the plans from 2002), as Calgary seems to be abandoning/downsizing theirs and therefore not making them competition capable.

The only real hurdle is the 800m vertical for Men's Downhill. But if the FIS accept a mere 30m ramp and the finishing area on river barges, then it's not much of an issue, as the rail track that once dotted the mountain side is now mostly tunneled and Le Massif had indeed got further vertical through the intoduction of a new piste created in the 2000's.

It's simply a matter of will, as well as costs. Quebec could surely do it alone.

I won't disagree that Quebec could do it alone but it would be very expensive with some questionable legacies. Quebec has no need for an indoor stadium. It would be a white elephant. It would be a logistical nightmare as well trying to use an indoor stadium for ceremonies then have it ready for short track and figure skating. The Videotron Centre is state of the art and cannot even attract an NHL team. The Gaetan Boucher oval has already been replaced with the soon to open Centre de Glaces Intact Assurance but it does not have the capacity for the Olympics and I highly doubt they'd allow an expensive renovation to add seats when the venue is brand new. Renovations such as expanding Complexe 2 Glace Honco would be very costly. It makes no sense for Quebec to build a ski jump and sliding track when the IOC is actively encouraging the use of existing facilities. Canada has no need for an additional ski jump stadium or sliding track when the ones in Vancouver just need a little touching up. Vancouver is a much more cost effective option with the potential for a legacy to cement itself as Canada's winter sports capital. 

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How are these legacies questionable?

I am now aware that Gaetan Boucher Oval has been replaced. At 2,500 capacity it should be deemed adequate for Speed Skating.

It wouldn't be a logistical nightmare to convert an indoor stadium used for ceremonies into part ice rink. It has been done and proven so many times in venues that need quick conversion from say a basketball court, to an international sized ice hockey rink. For example, Berlin's Mercedes Benz Arena does this on a regular basis, when it converts their Basketball team's court into an ice hockey rink for their Ice Hockey team. By 2030, there might be justification for a new stadium to serve a Canadian Football League team as a permanent tenant. It's simply a question if it were to be roofed, retractable roofed or temporary roofed.

The alternative to this would be to propose that temporary ceremonies at the Plains of Abraham like in 2002 at a 45,000 seater capacity, with a temporary arena like what Lausanne did at the former Quebec Coliseum site. It would then break Lausanne's record for the world's largest temporary arena.

Complexe 2 Glaces can be expanded with a clear legacy. You have an indoor pool as the driving force and key legacy. In addition to this, it justifies the complete removal of the old Saint Romuald Arena, as the expanded main rink at Complexe 2 Glaces will be close or match that as the former arena. The indoor pool replaces the outdoor pool at Saint Romuald Arena. A backup plan would either use PEPS at Laval University, or the new arena built at Trois-Rivières which is around 100km away. Even a new proposed stadium could be split for 2 ice rinks, allowing Pavilion de la Jeunesse for use for Curling. But having Complexe 2 Glaces allows for the secondary rink to be used as training Curling sheets.

It does make sense for Quebec to build a legacy Ski Jump and Sliding Track, as a winter sports nation like Canada should be able to sustain 2 facilities, especially now that Calgary is no longer actively using theirs and has actually demolished their Sliding Track. You only then dismantle such facilities IF it doesn't have a legacy in the coming years, but I'm sure it can work.

Of course Vancouver is more cost effective, they just hosted 20 years prior! But remember they bet both Calgary and Quebec for the 2010 race. Now that Calgary is clearly out, it makes sense for Quebec to at least try again, then if it fails for 2030, Vancouver could try for 2034.

Just give them another shot at it, the bid will definitely be much stronger than 2002, provided only if they have more competent staff on their bid team and don't put out simplified "garbage" like their initial study. It needs to be more realistic, whilst more importantly, be more professional.

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On 7/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Lord David said:

How are these legacies questionable?

I am now aware that Gaetan Boucher Oval has been replaced. At 2,500 capacity it should be deemed adequate for Speed Skating.

It wouldn't be a logistical nightmare to convert an indoor stadium used for ceremonies into part ice rink. It has been done and proven so many times in venues that need quick conversion from say a basketball court, to an international sized ice hockey rink. For example, Berlin's Mercedes Benz Arena does this on a regular basis, when it converts their Basketball team's court into an ice hockey rink for their Ice Hockey team. By 2030, there might be justification for a new stadium to serve a Canadian Football League team as a permanent tenant. It's simply a question if it were to be roofed, retractable roofed or temporary roofed.

The alternative to this would be to propose that temporary ceremonies at the Plains of Abraham like in 2002 at a 45,000 seater capacity, with a temporary arena like what Lausanne did at the former Quebec Coliseum site. It would then break Lausanne's record for the world's largest temporary arena.

Complexe 2 Glaces can be expanded with a clear legacy. You have an indoor pool as the driving force and key legacy. In addition to this, it justifies the complete removal of the old Saint Romuald Arena, as the expanded main rink at Complexe 2 Glaces will be close or match that as the former arena. The indoor pool replaces the outdoor pool at Saint Romuald Arena. A backup plan would either use PEPS at Laval University, or the new arena built at Trois-Rivières which is around 100km away. Even a new proposed stadium could be split for 2 ice rinks, allowing Pavilion de la Jeunesse for use for Curling. But having Complexe 2 Glaces allows for the secondary rink to be used as training Curling sheets.

It does make sense for Quebec to build a legacy Ski Jump and Sliding Track, as a winter sports nation like Canada should be able to sustain 2 facilities, especially now that Calgary is no longer actively using theirs and has actually demolished their Sliding Track. You only then dismantle such facilities IF it doesn't have a legacy in the coming years, but I'm sure it can work.

Of course Vancouver is more cost effective, they just hosted 20 years prior! But remember they bet both Calgary and Quebec for the 2010 race. Now that Calgary is clearly out, it makes sense for Quebec to at least try again, then if it fails for 2030, Vancouver could try for 2034.

Just give them another shot at it, the bid will definitely be much stronger than 2002, provided only if they have more competent staff on their bid team and don't put out simplified "garbage" like their initial study. It needs to be more realistic, whilst more importantly, be more professional.

IOC and the ISU require a minimum of 8,000 spectators for speed skating so the new oval wouldn't be an option. Changing over an indoor arena like Berlin's arena or the many NHL/NBA arenas is a lot different than prepping an indoor stadium from ceremonies mode to figure skating/short track mode (figure skating prelims often begin the day of the ceremonies anyway) and requires lots of time to remove infrastructure needed (prepping a stadium for NHL Winter Classic where everything has to be brought in takes a week or more). I like the option of having ice events in an indoor stadium with either a fixed or retractable roof, it's just not feasible or else I think you'd see candidate cities like Sapporo proposing it. I remember Quebec's plans for 2002 using a temporary stadium on the Plans of Abraham. It still leaves Quebec one 10,000+ arena short. The Trois Rivieres Arena would be ideal for curling though. Still don't think a ski jump or sliding track would have a viable legacy. If Canada really needed two, then fixing up Calgary's should be a more cost effective option. I don't see a CFL team coming to Quebec either as the Montreal Alouettes hold the rights for the entire Quebec province and any expansion or relocation would have to be approved by the team first. I can't see that happening as the Alouettes would likely see a Quebec team as cutting into their fanbase and revenues.

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If the IOC and ISU were serious about reducing costs, then they will accept a 2,500 seater venue, especially if it's capable of hosting events.

If Quebec propose their temporary ceremonies stadium, then a temporary arena will be the solution for Figure Skating and Short Track Speed Skating, like what Lausanne did for the Winter Youth Olympics.

Calgary doesn't want to spend the funds to fix their ski jumps and sliding track, which was a huge factor as to why the 2026 bid didn't go ahead. So it's still a viable legacy.

If the indoor stadium doesn't happen, then the temporary ceremonies venue is a go. You could even have it at the site of the former Quebec Coliseum for that Olympic Park feel whilst having the temporary arena elsewhere, like near Laval University.

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On 7/8/2021 at 1:19 AM, stryker said:

IOC and the ISU require a minimum of 8,000 spectators for speed skating so the new oval wouldn't be an option. Changing over an indoor arena like Berlin's arena or the many NHL/NBA arenas is a lot different than prepping an indoor stadium from ceremonies mode to figure skating/short track mode (figure skating prelims often begin the day of the ceremonies anyway) and requires lots of time to remove infrastructure needed (prepping a stadium for NHL Winter Classic where everything has to be brought in takes a week or more). I like the option of having ice events in an indoor stadium with either a fixed or retractable roof, it's just not feasible or else I think you'd see candidate cities like Sapporo proposing it. I remember Quebec's plans for 2002 using a temporary stadium on the Plans of Abraham. It still leaves Quebec one 10,000+ arena short. The Trois Rivieres Arena would be ideal for curling though. Still don't think a ski jump or sliding track would have a viable legacy. If Canada really needed two, then fixing up Calgary's should be a more cost effective option. I don't see a CFL team coming to Quebec either as the Montreal Alouettes hold the rights for the entire Quebec province and any expansion or relocation would have to be approved by the team first. I can't see that happening as the Alouettes would likely see a Quebec team as cutting into their fanbase and revenues.

Lord David is correct.  Those of requiring minimum capacity venues are gone.

This applies to all sports of all Olympic Games, both Winter and Summer.

This is the New Norm now and existing, temporary or new venues or temporary with lesser capacity are absolutely fine if legacy/sustainability can be demonstrated, eg community usage or sport tenant usage after the Games.

For instance, the 50,000 capacity of the Olympic Stadium (ceremonies and athletics) of Brisbane 2032 is one of the smallest in living memory.

International Sporting Federations can negotiate with Games Bidders for things like technical suitability, athletes facilities, etc of Venues but they absolutely can no longer impose minimum spectator capacity requirements on a prospective bidder.  

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22 hours ago, AustralianFan said:

Lord David is correct.  Those of requiring minimum capacity venues are gone.

This applies to all sports of all Olympic Games, both Winter and Summer.

This is the New Norm now and existing, temporary or new venues or temporary with lesser capacity are absolutely fine if legacy/sustainability can be demonstrated, eg community usage or sport tenant usage after the Games.

For instance, the 50,000 capacity of the Olympic Stadium (ceremonies and athletics) of Brisbane 2032 is one of the smallest in living memory.

International Sporting Federations can negotiate with Games Bidders for things like technical suitability, athletes facilities, etc of Venues but they absolutely can no longer impose minimum spectator capacity requirements on a prospective bidder.  

Yes and no. Minimum capacity requirements are flexible but this does not mean the IOC or more importantly, individual sporting federations are going to accept any minimum capacity put forth by a candidate city. Brisbane's planned 50,000 capacity Olympic Stadium at the rebuilt Gabba is still nearly two-thirds of what the IOC previously required in a stadium's capacity. This still leaves plenty of spaces for media, VIPs, and other members of the Olympic Family. A speed skating oval at 2,500 capacity is only a fraction of what the original minimum requirement was. As a prime WOG event, this is not enough for the aforementioned groups plus spectators. Also remember with lower capacities means less ticket revenue unless prices are raised substantially. That said, yes it is well past time for host cities to not buckle to ridiculous venue demands much like Tokyo did and Tokyo is now the most expensive Olympics in history. Remember they caved in to the FIVB when they proposed using the existing Yokohama Arena instead of building the brand new Ariake Arena. Tokyo did the same with aquatics and rowing, building expensive venues that will never see full capacity with no viable legacy. One could even argue the new national stadium was a mistake. 

Temporary arenas and temporary stadiums are not viable options. The only moderately successful temporary arenas were London's basketball arena that never saw any use afterwards because it was deemed too expensive to ship and rebuild and Malley 2.0 in Lausanne which was built by the local hockey club and conveniently used for the 2020 YOGs but it is not yet demonstrable that a temporary arena can be dismantled and reused. In fact we are seeing bidders go away from temporary arenas with Paris being the prime example. They scrapped the temporary venues for aquatics (moving it to the existing La Defense Arena) and scrapping a planned temporary arena for volleyball (moving volleyball to the Paris Expo Porte de Versailles while moving handball to Lille in the existing retractable roof stadium. So far as a prospective Quebec bid goes, temporary arenas would be a waste of money.

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How would temporary arenas be a waste of money when you're really just proposing 1? The venues for Snowboard/Freestyle Skiing may be temporary, but they don't count. This is of course assuming that Quebec goes for that approach.

I wouldn't call Tokyo's new national stadium a mistake. Remember, they redid the Zaha Hadid design after huge backlash and concern over costs. The Tokyo games are a money pit anyways, so that shouldn't be an example for forthcoming bids.

I suppose you could use the indoor Telus Stadium at Laval University for something, but that would be well suited as main indoor dining hall, where an easy 2,000+ diners could be housed any any dining session. Or this would also be perfect as the ceremonies venue. Remove the track, remove the old grandstands and expand with new and temporary stands to up to 40,000.  The indoor part houses the "luxury suites", which should be supplemented with new ones on the opposite grandstand, whilst the indoor field would house much of the performers/etc for use during the ceremonies.

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