Moved 2022 before its to late.

[Quaker2001]

9 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

I feel it end up splitting the IOC permanently with lasting splits and meaning 2024/2026/2028 are all boycotted by many countries.

To echo what Nacre said.. you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is really stupid.  You honestly think that what happens with 2022 (and yes, one way or another, there's likely to be a lot of very strong stances and plenty of people who are unsatisfied with the outcome) would have a ripple effect on the following 3 Olympics in the form of "many countries?"  

Let's say the United States boycotts 2022.  Is there a good chance China responds by not attending the 2028 Olympics?  Absolutely.  Would other countries follow?  Doubtful.  Are you trying to imply if, say, the UK boycotts 2022 but the US doesn't, that something the UK's response to that might be to lead a boycott of 2028?  Because that's ridiculous.

This is going to be a one off thing.  Sure, it's going to cause some shockwaves one way or the other within the IOC, but what's this nonsense about the IOC permanently splitting.  That's not going to happen.  After 2022, it'll be over.  Everyone will move on.  And the Olympic movement will probably not be defined on a lasting basis on how everyone feels about China.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

Quite possible they will be the goverment by February.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:21 PM, Quaker2001 said:

To echo what Nacre said.. you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is really stupid.  You honestly think that what happens with 2022 (and yes, one way or another, there's likely to be a lot of very strong stances and plenty of people who are unsatisfied with the outcome) would have a ripple effect on the following 3 Olympics in the form of "many countries?"  

Let's say the United States boycotts 2022.  Is there a good chance China responds by not attending the 2028 Olympics?  Absolutely.  Would other countries follow?  Doubtful.  Are you trying to imply if, say, the UK boycotts 2022 but the US doesn't, that something the UK's response to that might be to lead a boycott of 2028?  Because that's ridiculous.

This is going to be a one off thing.  Sure, it's going to cause some shockwaves one way or the other within the IOC, but what's this nonsense about the IOC permanently splitting.  That's not going to happen.  After 2022, it'll be over.  Everyone will move on.  And the Olympic movement will probably not be defined on a lasting basis on how everyone feels about China.

Because China has a lot of countries it could blackmail into boycotting future games due to their hosts boycotting 2022.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-uk-cannot-attend-the-2022-beijing-winter-olympics-in-good-conscience-twpj2zlcd

The Muslim council of great Britain calls for a boycott.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/canada-opposition-party-says-olympics-160250337.html

I can see 2030/2032 not having any bidders because the IOC name will associated with genocide.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/o-toole-relocate-olympic-games-2020-1.5915318

[Quaker2001]

1 hour ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/canada-opposition-party-says-olympics-160250337.html

I can see 2030/2032 not having any bidders because the IOC name will associated with genocide.

Can I get some of the drugs you're on that clearly are giving you hallucinations and making you see things that any sane person knows aren't actually there.

1 hour ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

Because China has a lot of countries it could blackmail into boycotting future games due to their hosts boycotting 2022.

See previous comment.  China can't blackmail other countries into boycotting the Olympics.  Where do you come up with abject ridiculousness like this?

[BTHarner]

All we are seeing here are bold pronouncements by public figures that only serve to inflate their sense of self-importance. Do they know what boycotts really accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Jimmy Carter gave the Soviets one month to get out of Afghanistan  They eventually withdrew...two administrations later and not because of anything of our doing. We heard all this noise in 2008 when delusional people actually thought they could get China to improve their human rights record. They didn't and, by some accounts, they have gotten even worse. They, however. really don't care what anybody thinks and and it is just preposterous for anyone to think they can force the Chinese hand. They can, and will, do as they please and we'll probably see this whole thing repeated in 20 to 30 years, maybe even sooner.

[AustralianFan]

Opinion: If the West boycotts China’s Olympics, the Games could end forever. Fingers crossed.

Credit: The Washington Post

Opinion by Charles Lane - Editorial writer and columnist

Feb. 17, 2021 at 9:30 a.m

The 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin has passed into history as a grotesque totalitarian spectacle, thanks partly to Leni Riefenstahl’s memorialization of the games in her propganda film “Olympia.”

Less remembered is the fact that Nazi Germany also hosted the 1936 Winter Games, at Garmisch-Partenkirchen in the Bavarian Alps, between Feb. 6 and Feb. 16. Just five months before this snowy athletic jamboree, the Reichstag had promulgated the anti-Jewish Nuremberg race laws.

And three weeks after the closing ceremonies, on March 7, 1936, Adolf Hitler ordered his army to occupy the Rhineland, in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Both the Winter and Summer Games went on despite calls for a boycott from activists concerned that the Olympics would help legitimize Hitler’s regime.

So it’s par for the historical course that today’s People’s Republic of China, which hosted the 2008 Summer Olympics, should be scheduled to put on the Winter Games a year from now — while building concentration camps for Muslim Uighurs, trashing democracy in Hong Kong, imprisoning dissidents and threatening Taiwan. Beijing is also detaining, under harsh conditions, two Canadian expats in retaliation for Canada’s lawful and transparent extradition proceedings against an executive of China’s flagship tech firm, Huawei, accused by the United States of violating sanctions on Iran.

Historical analogizing about such matters is inherently difficult. But you don’t have to see exact moral equivalence between Nazi Germany and Communist China to wonder whether today’s international Olympic panjandrums are capable of learning anything from their predecessors’ experience.

“Our perspective on all of this is that no matter how complex and how conflicting views may exist among countries, we’re trying to steer a middle course here using sport as a means of communication even in the worst of times,” Dick Pound, vice president of the International Olympic Committee, recently told the BBC, in response to calls from human rights organizations for a boycott of the 2022 Winter Games. Such a gesture, he argued, would “have no impact whatsoever” on China’s conduct.

Maybe — or maybe not. Democratic governments have more leverage over the Winter Games than they would over the summer competition: The overwhelming majority of top-flight winter athletes come from the United States, Canada and Western Europe.

Athletes from just 10 Northern Hemisphere countries have won 748 of the 1,060 gold medals in the 23 Winter Games so far. Of these, two — Russia and its precursor, the Soviet Union — were not democratic historically or now. The others are Norway, the United States, Germany, Canada, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland and the Netherlands, all of which, whatever their past or present flaws, qualify as liberal democracies today.

If they and other democracies pulled out, Beijing would be left to host a hollow, uncompetitive farce, instead of the glorification-fest the Communist Party has in mind.

Fortunately for the People’s Republic, there is not much chance, at least for now, that any countries will take a stand.

Like the Chinese, they are interested in national glorification and corporate profits, which are the real purposes of the Olympic Games — contrary to Pound’s blather about “sport as a means of communication.”

Yes, individual athletes would bear the costs of a boycott; this is the main reason, or excuse, that governments offer for not supporting one.

Realistically, though, many Olympic athletes are professionals who enjoy abundant other opportunities to prove themselves in international competition.

Given the chronic corruption, political and economic, of the Olympic Games, maybe it’s time to reconsider whether we should teach young people to “go for the gold” in the first place.

That thinking has inspired many young achievers — but also ensnared others in a dark world of steroid use or worse, such as the training facility for U.S. women gymnasts on an isolated ranch in Texas where a team doctor subjected teenage athletes to sexual abuse.

If the United States and other democracies boycott the 2022 Winter Games, China could respond in kind, triggering a tit-for-tat cycle that ultimately puts an end to the Olympics altogether. Or so one hopes.

[BTHarner]

Was that from the Washington Post or the New York Post? So hard to tell the difference anymore.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

15 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Can I get some of the drugs you're on that clearly are giving you hallucinations and making you see things that any sane person knows aren't actually there.

See previous comment.  China can't blackmail other countries into boycotting the Olympics.  Where do you come up with abject ridiculousness like this?

The Soviet's got all their puppets to boycott 1984 - You do realise China has invested billions into Africa which they use as leverage.

[Quaker2001]

15 hours ago, BTHarner said:

All we are seeing here are bold pronouncements by public figures that only serve to inflate their sense of self-importance. Do they know what boycotts really accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Jimmy Carter gave the Soviets one month to get out of Afghanistan  They eventually withdrew...two administrations later and not because of anything of our doing. We heard all this noise in 2008 when delusional people actually thought they could get China to improve their human rights record. They didn't and, by some accounts, they have gotten even worse. They, however. really don't care what anybody thinks and and it is just preposterous for anyone to think they can force the Chinese hand. They can, and will, do as they please and we'll probably see this whole thing repeated in 20 to 30 years, maybe even sooner.

That's my contention.  China put on their best face when they knew the world was watching.  Then when the world stopped watching, they went right back to doing all the terrible things they had been doing.

This time around, those "terrible things" are a lot more in focus and social media makes it a lot easier for that message to travel.  We know the IOC being the IOC won't say a bad word about China and will proceed as normal through the next year.  If other countries respond however they do, will it change anything?  Will conditions for the Uighurs improve because major countries boycott the Olympics?  Will China's status as an economic power take a hit if their Olympics aren't everything they hoped?

I think the end result is most likely that athletes will be in China, but dignitaries won't be.  I know that won't be sufficient for a lot of the blowhard politicians that think they're taking a stand, but at the end of the day, it's not their decision unless they go straight to the source (i.e. their national Olympic committee) and I'm betting most wouldn't even think to do that.

10 hours ago, BTHarner said:

Was that from the Washington Post or the New York Post? So hard to tell the difference anymore.

Is REDWHITEBLUE a shadow writer for them?  That writer wants an end to the Olympics?  No thank you

[Quaker2001]

4 hours ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

The Soviet's got all their puppets to boycott 1984 - You do realise China has invested billions into Africa which they use as leverage.

They most certainly did not get *all* their puppets to boycott.  Do you not remember China attending the `84 games?  How about Romania?  Most of the Eastern bloc nations followed suit, but it was by no means universal.  And then a decade later, the Soviet Union ceased to exist.

What exactly gives China leverage over Africa?  You really think China could convince African nations to skip 2024 or 2028?  Good luck with that.  How many of those countries would choose to be more loyal to France or the United States than to China.  Think this one through and image if China tried to impose their will that way on African nations.  Don't think that would go over really well

[Nacre]

18 hours ago, BTHarner said:

Jimmy Carter gave the Soviets one month to get out of Afghanistan  They eventually withdrew...two administrations later and not because of anything of our doing. 

Well, the military equipment and training we gave the Mujahideen/proto-Taliban helped. Of course, that bit us in the ass later on . . .

18 hours ago, BTHarner said:

We heard all this noise in 2008 when delusional people actually thought they could get China to improve their human rights record. They didn't and, by some accounts, they have gotten even worse. They, however. really don't care what anybody thinks and and it is just preposterous for anyone to think they can force the Chinese hand. They can, and will, do as they please and we'll probably see this whole thing repeated in 20 to 30 years, maybe even sooner.

The irony is that the more the West presses China on human rights, the more the CCP sees minority rights as a threat to its revived Han empire and thus feels an increased need to suppress minorities.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Nacre

[AustralianFan]

2022 Olympics should be moved from China says Canada opposition party

Credit: Sydney Mornjng Herald

By Rob Gillies    February 17, 2021 — 1.09pm

Toronto: Canada’s main opposition party on Tuesday, local time, urged the government to press the International Olympic Committee to move the 2022 Winter Olympics out of Beijing, arguing China is committing genocide against more than 1 million Uighurs in the western Xinjiang region.

Conservative Party leader Erin O’Toole said Canada should not be turning a blind eye to genocide.

“Canada must take a stand, but we do not need to do this alone. We should work with our closest allies,” O’Toole said.

O’Toole said China is also imposing a police state on Hong Kong and arbitrarily detaining two Canadians in Chinese prisons. He said if the Olympics are not moved, a boycott could be considered.

 

At a news conference, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was noncommittal, saying the issue was being looked at by the Canadian and International Olympic committees “and we will certainly continue to follow it closely.”

He also hesitated at using the word “genocide,” which he called an “extremely loaded” term.

“There is no question there have been tremendous human rights abuses reported coming out of Xinjiang and we are extremely concerned about that and have highlighted our concerns many times. But when it comes to the application of the very specific word genocide, we simply need to ensure that all the i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed before a determination like that is made.”

British Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said in October that an Olympic boycott by his country is a possibility, and new US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said he believes genocide was being committed in China. The World Uighur Congress recently labelled the event the “Genocide Games” and asked the IOC to move the Olympics from China.

A coalition of 180 rights groups representing Tibetans, Uighurs, Inner Mongolians, Hong Kong residents and others sent an open letter this month calling for a diplomatic boycott.

The IOC has said repeatedly that awarding the Olympics “does not mean that the IOC agrees with the political structure, social circumstances or human rights standards in the country” that hosts them.

Beijing is the first city to hold both the Winter and Summer Olympics. The IOC awarded it the Winter Olympics in 2015 when several Europe bidders, including Oslo and Stockholm, backed out for political or financial reasons.

The head of the Canadian Organising Committee, David Shoemaker, rejected the idea of changing the venue.

“We believe that moving the Games less than a year out would be next to impossible. Organising an Olympic Games is an incredibly complex undertaking that typically takes more than seven years to do,” he said in a statement.

“The COC will focus on its role of preparing Team Canada for success and promoting the Olympic values at home and abroad.”

Guy Saint-Jacques, Canada’s former ambassador to China, said the Winter Olympics should be postponed for a year and could be held elsewhere.

Saint-Jacques said the US needs to take the lead.

“We know that China has said it would punish very severely any country that would dare to suggest to move the Olympics, but for democratic countries they have to think how history will judge us,” he said.

“If you are in good company it becomes very difficult for China to punish one country. The only country that can stand up to China is the US.”

Reuters

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2021/02/17/moving-the-2022-beijing-olympics-would-be-next-to-impossible-canadas-olympic-ceo-says.html

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

'Guy Saint-Jacques, Canada’s ambassador to China between 2012 and 2016, says Canada cannot “remain complacent” in the face of what he considers a genocide in Xinjiang. “We can pretend that the Olympics are not political. It’s a big political undertaking on the part of China,” he told Corridors. “If we go to the Games, I think that history will judge us very severely.” '

[BTHarner]

It annoys me that all these statements from these political types focus solely on the Olympics. I haven't read one comment regarding Paralympic participation nor have I heard any comments out of Asia that attending the Asian Games in Hangzhou is tacit acceptance of the actions of the Chinese government.  

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.newsweek.com/us-canadian-british-olympic-committees-dont-support-2022-beijing-boycott-1570074

The BOC thinking boycotting will cost funding when arguably it's likely to be the opposite.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/02/18/plans-well-underway-for-bidens-democracy-conference-to-counter-china-491782

 

— Heat rises on Beijing Winter Olympics 2022. After Republican lawmakers proposed earlier in February to move the 2022 Winter Olympics out of Beijing to protest “genocide” of the ethnic Uighurs, a new front has now opened that may yet cause divisions inside the United States and among its allies.

So far, the Biden administration has resisted calls for a boycott.

Democrats aren’t ready to sign on: A leading Democrat on Capitol Hill told your host on Wednesday that, in tandem with the White House, most Democrats were not yet ready to join their Republican counterparts in pushing to move the 2022 Winter Olympics from China.

Interestingly though, he raised the prospect that Congress might move in that direction, playing bad cop to the White House’s good cop on the matter, thus sewing confusion in Chinese leaders’ minds. That, the source said, might provide political leverage on Chinese human rights issues without necessarily leading to a boycott.

Slippery slopes ahead: Britain’s Guardian newspaper reported this month that, “More than 180 human rights organizations have called for a boycott of the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympic Games in protest against China’s mass human rights abuses.” The groups, the Guardian noted, are “primarily regional associations in support of Tibet, Taiwan, the Uighur community and Hong Kong.”

There are moves afoot in other democracies, too. Up in Canada, Conservative leader of the opposition Erin O’Toole earlier this week publicly called for the 2022 Winter Games to be moved out of China in protest at what O’Toole described as “a genocide” against the Uighurs.

The government of Justin Trudeau has so far not gone so far as to call for the Games’ relocation, but the prime minister revealed that the Canadian Olympic and Paralympic Committees were “looking very closely” at the issue.'

 

Feels like Canada is putting pressure on the committees to choose to boycott.

 

 

 

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1104449/canada-otoole-beijing-2022

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1104449/canada-otoole-beijing-2022

People need to stop suggesting that the Olympics should be moved out of China.  It's not going to happen.  There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the IOC is going to do that, so trying to pressure them into making that call is a pointless gesture. 

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

1 hour ago, Quaker2001 said:

People need to stop suggesting that the Olympics should be moved out of China.  It's not going to happen.  There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the IOC is going to do that, so trying to pressure them into making that call is a pointless gesture. 

It's so they can blame the IOC for why they calling for a boycott. The long term is Canada is thinking of bidding for 2030 but that feels unlikely if the IOC becomes something politicians publicly attack.

[Quaker2001]

22 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

It's so they can blame the IOC for why they calling for a boycott. The long term is Canada is thinking of bidding for 2030 but that feels unlikely if the IOC becomes something politicians publicly attack.

No, I'm fairly certain that's not it.  It's a convenient ways for politicians to speak out against China and tie their anti-China sentiment to a specific issue, one that would have a resolution other than simply to say "China sucks, stop sucking so much."  Has nothing to do with the IOC or the Olympics or Canada's aspirations to host a future Olympics.  Don't over-think this one.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56131781

'Mr Blinken refused to be drawn on calls for a boycott of the 2022 Winter Olympics, due to be held in Beijing, over allegations of genocide against the Uighur minority, saying only: "That's something we'll come to at the right time, in the right moment." '