Moved 2022 before its to late.

[StefanMUC]

4 hours ago, olympikfan said:

Here is another thing to consider, If the summer Olympics are cancel. who is to say that the winter athletes will start a movement of solidarity to show support for those  summer athletes. who lost their moment. In other words we didn't have ours you don't get yours. Another way to not use the word boycott.

What’s that? Suicide for fear of death? 
 

Never in a million years would athletes en masse go for that idea.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

On 8/5/2020 at 7:21 PM, Quaker2001 said:

I'll believe it when I see it.  Does the United States really want to boycott 2022 knowing it all but guarantees that China won't be here in 2028.  And we know how big of a deal that was for them to show up in LA in 1984.

If Trump gets re-elected (G-d help us if that happens), I'm sure he'll push for a 2022 boycott because someone will plant the idea in his head and he'll rile up all his supporters, and they'll force the USOPC's hand to cave in.  If Biden wins the election?.. not sure sure he'll push so hard to make that kind of political statement, especially without a groundswell of other politicians pushing him for it.  And I don't think that's going to happen.

Should there be a more coordinating worldwide effort involved here, that's a different story.  But again, how does the United States or France or Italy become a part of that when they're in bed with the IOC and did so after they had already awarded an Olympics to China?  Because then that torpedoes the value of their investment and I'm not sure that's a route they'll want to be forced into.  Let alone LA 2028 who is NOT backed by the government and relies on private funding.  So that hurts them big time if a country representing 1/5 of humanity (as they reminded us with their 2008 pitch) isn't in attendance, and who knows what other countries might join them in solidarity.

It might suit the USA to have no China in 2028.

[Quaker2001]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:20 AM, olympikfan said:

Here is another thing to consider, If the summer Olympics are cancel. who is to say that the winter athletes will start a movement of solidarity to show support for those  summer athletes. who lost their moment. In other words we didn't have ours you don't get yours. Another way to not use the word boycott.

No.  Don't consider that.  In fact, erase that thought from your head immediately.  That's a boycott any way you want to spin it.

A lot of athletes get only 1 shot at an Olympics.  No one is going to sit it out just because they feel bad for other athletes.  That's not solidarity.  That's stupidity.

If athletes are fearful of travelling to China or supporting that country in any way, that's understandable.  But I can promise you, there won't be a single athlete that says "I feel sorry for the wrestler who didn't get his moment.. I'm giving up my chance as well!"

[Quaker2001]

40 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

It might suit the USA to have no China in 2028.

How so?  You're talking 8 years from now, so we don't know what US-China relations will look like by that point.  Who or what gets served by having China skip out on the 2028 Olympics, particularly if it's in retribution to any political agenda that might have been laid out years earlier?

[olympikfan]

So again, Summer Olympics are cancel, but that's OK China we in Japan just lost billions on Yens. Japan and China are not best of friends. And Japan will send their winter athletes over? And other countries  will support Japan. The EU and UK just might support Japan. The Olympics are nothing in Europe the only thing that matters is Football! And Euro 2020 in 2021 is the main thing in EU. And Japan could care less, because Japan won't host any Olympics for a very long time; IF they are cancel. And forget about 2028 what about 2024. If  France backs Japan. And I did some calculations. This year is year 999,999 so next year could be the millionth year!

[Quaker2001]

6 hours ago, olympikfan said:

So again, Summer Olympics are cancel, but that's OK China we in Japan just lost billions on Yens. Japan and China are not best of friends. And Japan will send their winter athletes over? And other countries  will support Japan. The EU and UK just might support Japan. The Olympics are nothing in Europe the only thing that matters is Football! And Euro 2020 in 2021 is the main thing in EU. And Japan could care less, because Japan won't host any Olympics for a very long time; IF they are cancel. And forget about 2028 what about 2024. If  France backs Japan. And I did some calculations. This year is year 999,999 so next year could be the millionth year!

[Nacre]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:21 AM, Quaker2001 said:

If Trump gets re-elected (G-d help us if that happens), I'm sure he'll push for a 2022 boycott because someone will plant the idea in his head and he'll rile up all his supporters, and they'll force the USOPC's hand to cave in.  If Biden wins the election?.. not sure sure he'll push so hard to make that kind of political statement, especially without a groundswell of other politicians pushing him for it.  And I don't think that's going to happen.

Biden is not exactly pro-China either.

An Olympic boycott would 1) accomplish nothing in getting China to accept more human rights, 2) merely encourage the Chinese to engage in tit-for-tat retaliation, 3) give up some leverage in negotiations (we will attend the Olympics and sing China's praises if China does _____), and 4) encourage more political militancy in the West. Hopefully government advisors can explain to Trump (and to Biden if he wins election) that while something needs to be done about China, an Olympic boycott is not the thing to be done.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Nacre

[Quaker2001]

4 hours ago, Nacre said:

Biden is not exactly pro-China either.

An Olympic boycott would 1) accomplish nothing in getting China to accept more human rights, 2) merely encourage the Chinese to engage in tit-for-tat retaliation, 3) give up some leverage in negotiations (we will attend the Olympics and sing China's praises if China does _____), and 4) encourage more political militancy in the West. Hopefully government advisors can explain to Trump (and to Biden if he wins election) that while something needs to be done about China, an Olympic boycott is not the thing to be done.

There is no comparison between Biden and Trump on this one.  None.

To repeat what I said above.. if Trump wins, he will push for a boycott, not because he is anti-China, but to fuel his own ego and to rile up his base.  And for no other reason.  No amount of advice is likely to do much on that front.

Different with Biden.  He knows that a boycott isn't likely to accomplish anything, so it's not a matter of advisors talking him out of it.  Someone would have to talk him into it in the first place.  And while Trump can't still be president in 2028 (unless he were to lose and run again), if Biden wins, members of his team could still be there in 2028.  So they'll knew what the ramifications are of boycotting 2022 with regards to 2028.  It'll serve little purpose, especially without a lot of backing from other countries as we saw with the 1980 boycott.  

[baron-pierreIV]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:55 AM, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

It might suit the USA to have no China in 2028.

Huh?  Totally idiotic.  In fact, LA 2028 would be grateful to have China again there because China (Yugo and Rumania) filled in for the absence of the USSR and the other Warsaw Pact countries when they boycotted 1984.  But in fact, it was actually nice to see 3 other Socialist countries buck the Moscow trend and by showing up at Los Angeles 1984, were in fact telling the USSR then: F*ck you, we're going - whether you like it or not.  Besides, it's NOT up to the US hosts to have China or not -- not unless they want to break the terms of being a neutral host -- which I don't think they would want to.  I just don't see where this comes out of. 

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

9 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

There is no comparison between Biden and Trump on this one.  None.

To repeat what I said above.. if Trump wins, he will push for a boycott, not because he is anti-China, but to fuel his own ego and to rile up his base.  And for no other reason.  No amount of advice is likely to do much on that front.

Different with Biden.  He knows that a boycott isn't likely to accomplish anything, so it's not a matter of advisors talking him out of it.  Someone would have to talk him into it in the first place.  And while Trump can't still be president in 2028 (unless he were to lose and run again), if Biden wins, members of his team could still be there in 2028.  So they'll knew what the ramifications are of boycotting 2022 with regards to 2028.  It'll serve little purpose, especially without a lot of backing from other countries as we saw with the 1980 boycott.  

The UK would Join the USA - so would probably Australia, Poland, Hungary among others.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

9 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

There is no comparison between Biden and Trump on this one.  None.

To repeat what I said above.. if Trump wins, he will push for a boycott, not because he is anti-China, but to fuel his own ego and to rile up his base.  And for no other reason.  No amount of advice is likely to do much on that front.

Different with Biden.  He knows that a boycott isn't likely to accomplish anything, so it's not a matter of advisors talking him out of it.  Someone would have to talk him into it in the first place.  And while Trump can't still be president in 2028 (unless he were to lose and run again), if Biden wins, members of his team could still be there in 2028.  So they'll knew what the ramifications are of boycotting 2022 with regards to 2028.  It'll serve little purpose, especially without a lot of backing from other countries as we saw with the 1980 boycott.  

Carter led the 1980 boycott remember - so Biden might well support a 2022 boycott.

[Quaker2001]

12 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

The UK would Join the USA - so would probably Australia, Poland, Hungary among others.

10 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

Carter led the 1980 boycott remember - so Biden might well support a 2022 boycott.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, so it's terrible logic to try and conflate the 2.  What does history tell us about the 1980 boycott?  That in hindsight, it was a dumb decision.  It was a virtually pointless gesture in terms of affecting global politics.  And the only thing that changed was that a large group of athletes forever lost their Olympic dreams.  They were the ones who were hurt more than the Soviets.

So what exactly is the hope that a 2022 boycott would accomplishment?  Do we really think China will change because a handful of prominent Western nations didn't show up in Beijing?  Is this retribution for the virus?  If you think Biden would make a political statement (forget Trump.. we know any statement he makes will be solely about him and his ego), what would that statement be?  It can't just be "grrr, we're angry at China, let's piss them off by boycotting their Olympics."  That's an empty gesture that, much like Carter in 1980, will be remembered as a pointless political move that served absolutely no means

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

27 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, so it's terrible logic to try and conflate the 2.  What does history tell us about the 1980 boycott?  That in hindsight, it was a dumb decision.  It was a virtually pointless gesture in terms of affecting global politics.  And the only thing that changed was that a large group of athletes forever lost their Olympic dreams.  They were the ones who were hurt more than the Soviets.

So what exactly is the hope that a 2022 boycott would accomplishment?  Do we really think China will change because a handful of prominent Western nations didn't show up in Beijing?  Is this retribution for the virus?  If you think Biden would make a political statement (forget Trump.. we know any statement he makes will be solely about him and his ego), what would that statement be?  It can't just be "grrr, we're angry at China, let's piss them off by boycotting their Olympics."  That's an empty gesture that, much like Carter in 1980, will be remembered as a pointless political move that served absolutely no means

It might be seen as the opposite of 1936 - not tolreating the same type of behaviour that attending 1936 helped to further support.

[Quaker2001]

29 minutes ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

It might be seen as the opposite of 1936 - not tolreating the same type of behaviour that attending 1936 helped to further support.

Might be?  So you think the United States will boycott on "might be"?  What specific behavior are we not tolerating that we would refuse to send an Olympics team to China?  Particularly after we sent one there in 2008.

You didn't answer the question.  What would the purpose of a boycott that you think the United States and other Western nations might accomplish?  We'll never know how history might have changed if the United States really knew what was going on in Germany in the mid-1930s and didn't send a team to Berlin.  

But this isn't 1936.  It's 2020.  The notion of a 1936 boycott had a fairly specific agenda.  So did 1980.  What's the agenda here?  Again, with Trump as president, I can already see the narrative forming.  Not with Biden.  To say he's anti-China is not cause for him to organize and support a boycott.

[baron-pierreIV]

7 hours ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

It might be seen as the opposite of 1936 - not tolreating the same type of behaviour that attending 1936 helped to further support.

Even if the US had boycotted 1936, and say a few other nations, I doubt that would have changed the trajectory of history.  Germany/Hitler (somewhat like Trump now) was hellbent on throwing that big hissy fit and taking everyone down, regardless of the cost.  

[Nacre]

On 8/8/2020 at 10:35 PM, Quaker2001 said:

There is no comparison between Biden and Trump on this one.  None.

Sure, but there's no comparison between Trump and Jimmy Carter either. If Biden is elected he will be under pressure to do something about China too. It was already starting when he was on the campaign trail early in the crackdown on Hong Kong. 

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

15 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Might be?  So you think the United States will boycott on "might be"?  What specific behavior are we not tolerating that we would refuse to send an Olympics team to China?  Particularly after we sent one there in 2008.

You didn't answer the question.  What would the purpose of a boycott that you think the United States and other Western nations might accomplish?  We'll never know how history might have changed if the United States really knew what was going on in Germany in the mid-1930s and didn't send a team to Berlin.  

But this isn't 1936.  It's 2020.  The notion of a 1936 boycott had a fairly specific agenda.  So did 1980.  What's the agenda here?  Again, with Trump as president, I can already see the narrative forming.  Not with Biden.  To say he's anti-China is not cause for him to organize and support a boycott.

https://www.floridadaily.com/rick-scott-wants-a-meeting-with-ioc-to-talk-about-2022-olympics-in-china/

Uyghurs in Xinjiang and Hong Kong - neither a major issue in 2008.

Also comparisons with the Bans on South Africa during Apartheid and Afghanistan due to the Taliban.

I can even see Trump pulling the USA out of the IOC if they refuse to cancel.

If I was a American or British athlete preparing for 2022 I would be preparing to accept that it is probable I would be bared by my country to take part.

[REDWHITEBLUE24]

9 hours ago, baron-pierreIV said:

Even if the US had boycotted 1936, and say a few other nations, I doubt that would have changed the trajectory of history.  Germany/Hitler (somewhat like Trump now) was hellbent on throwing that big hissy fit and taking everyone down, regardless of the cost.  

Would have made a vital stand.

[Quaker2001]

8 hours ago, Nacre said:

Sure, but there's no comparison between Trump and Jimmy Carter either. If Biden is elected he will be under pressure to do something about China too. It was already starting when he was on the campaign trail early in the crackdown on Hong Kong. 

"to do something".. okay, is that something a boycott?  Again, what would that intend to accomplishment?  What is the end game here that Biden would hope to accomplish a move like that?

And yes, there's no comparison between Trump and Carter.  Their motivations for a boycott are completely unrelated, so to say "well, they both led a boycott of an Olympics (assuming Trump plays that card),"  that's largely where the similarities end.

[Nacre]

Politicians make decisions for political reasons. Carter boycotted the games because of domestic pressure to do something about the USSR after the invasion of Afghanistan and the Iranian revolution, not because it was a good idea. (Even at the time a boycott was clearly a bad idea.) Whoever is president in 2022 will also be under pressure to respond to China's belligerence towards Taiwan, its aggressive policies towards neighbors like India and Vietnam, its theft of Western intellectual property and its attempts at corporate sabotage in the USA and EU. (And some dubious complains about Covid-19 as well.)

An Olympic boycott is a cheap and easy way to spite China, and a president who doesn't have any good ideas for how to respond to China may see it as the "least bad idea" and thus a political necessity.

[Quaker2001]

6 minutes ago, Nacre said:

Politicians make decisions for political reasons. Carter boycotted the games because of domestic pressure to do something about the USSR after the invasion of Afghanistan and the Iranian revolution, not because it was a good idea. (Even at the time a boycott was clearly a bad idea.) Whoever is president in 2022 will also be under pressure to respond to China's belligerence towards Taiwan, its aggressive policies towards neighbors like India and Vietnam, its theft of Western intellectual property and its attempts at corporate sabotage in the USA and EU. (And some dubious complains about Covid-19 as well.)

An Olympic boycott is a cheap and easy way to spite China, and a president who doesn't have any good ideas for how to respond to China may see it as the "least bad idea" and thus a political necessity.

And how much of all that with China is new material that didn't exist back in 2008?  Suddenly it's an issue now that the United States needs to make a stand against?

Again, is the goal to "spite" China?  Or actually attempt to force a change in their international policy?  Because if it's the former, it's going to come off as petty and likely will accomplish nothing.  History tells us that the only thing that really happened with the 1980 boycott is that a lot of athletes lost out on a once in a lifetime chance to compete at the Olympics.  That boycott you could argue was out of spite because I seriously doubt they expected the Soviets to leave Afghanistan if Western nations didn't show up in Moscow.  Also remember that it was a Russian dissident that largely spurred on Carter's efforts to push for a boycott.  If that's only coming internally this time, I don't know how powerful a message it would be for the American president to say "we're not sending athletes to China."  I know why Trump would do that.  I don't know why Biden would

[Quaker2001]

7 hours ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

Would have made a vital stand.

Would it have though?  Would history have changed if the United States didn't show up in Berlin and give the Germans a spectacle?  Might have been an important statement by the United States, but I doubt it would have slowed Hitler's rise to power and his determination to wage war on Europe.

[Quaker2001]

7 hours ago, REDWHITEBLUE24 said:

https://www.floridadaily.com/rick-scott-wants-a-meeting-with-ioc-to-talk-about-2022-olympics-in-china/

Uyghurs in Xinjiang and Hong Kong - neither a major issue in 2008.

Also comparisons with the Bans on South Africa during Apartheid and Afghanistan due to the Taliban.

I can even see Trump pulling the USA out of the IOC if they refuse to cancel.

If I was a American or British athlete preparing for 2022 I would be preparing to accept that it is probable I would be bared by my country to take part.

Yes, Trump may throw a temper tantrum(p), but he doesn't have that kind of power.  And someone I doubt he wants to napalm business interests in Southern California because that's going to make for one hell of a mess with 2028 with the contracts that exist on both sides.  I don't doubt that he may try to do something ridiculous like that, but it doesn't mean he would succeed.

That's absurd that US athletes should think they can't go to 2022.  Again.. why?  What would American athletes not competing in China accomplish?  Would China suddenly be friendlier with Hong Kong as a result?  Once again, you are STILL not answering the question.  What is the purpose of an American boycott of the 2022 Olympics?

[Nacre]

6 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Again, is the goal to "spite" China?  Or actually attempt to force a change in their international policy? 

You are looking at this logically. Most politicians care about winning elections, not making rational decisions. And this becomes exacerbated in a climate of political radicalism like the one we are in now.

Again, I agree with your view. And I hope that Biden will be able to resist the pressure to do something stupid to take action against China, Russia and Iran. But I also hoped there would not be enough voters in 2016 who put sober analysis ahead of destructively antagonistic policies like "building a wall with Mexico", trade wars, and destabilizing eastern Europe. I was wrong, and lots of voters wanted to burn down the establishment. They probably will in 2020 and in 2022 as well.

[mr.bernham]

The Beijing 2022 games will be our generation's Berlin 1936. 

They will happen. There will be controversies and protests. The games will go on. Yet, they will exist as a black mark on the IOC's history.