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baron-pierreIV

Which one will win and what is the vote difference?

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Until Sweden does a Beijing-Sochi and spends oodles of kroner to build bullet train service between Stockholm and the mountains PLUS, have their own sliding track, they will NEVER get it if the Games are just rotated between the following, MORE COMPACT settings  (I don't mean combined; just showing them as representative of that region):

1.  Salt Lake, maybe Denver/Aspen/Colorado Springs

2.  Vancouver/Calgary,

3.  Sapporo/Nagano,

4.  Milano/Cortina/Torino,

5. Oslo/Lillehammer - Amsterdam,

6. Grenoble/Annecy,

7. Albertville/Geneva,

8.  PyeongChang,  

9.  a possible NE North American bid of Lake Placid-Montreal-Boston-Killington. 

10. Almaty

11.  dark horse Ulan Bator

12. an Iberian bid; Andorra, Barcelona, Jaca, Zaragoza

When all is forgiven with Russia and Putin is overthrown, I am sure the IOC would love to go back to Sochi and use those facilities again!   The IOC, if it also wanted a Nobel Peace Prize, could afford to resurrect and rebuild Sarajevo. 

So Sweden must really have a COMPELLING story to tell; none of this "Agenda 2020" window dressing which I know, in its heart of hearts, the IOC doesn't really care for.  It's just lip service.  

Edited by baron-pierreIV

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2 hours ago, baron-pierreIV said:

When all is forgiven with Russia and Putin is overthrown, I am sure the IOC would love to go back to Sochi and use those facilities again!   The IOC, if it also wanted a Nobel Peace Prize, could afford to resurrect and rebuild Sarajevo. 

So Sweden must really have a COMPELLING story to tell; none of this "Agenda 2020" window dressing which I know, in its heart of hearts, the IOC doesn't really care for.  It's just lip service.  

(Sigh.) It's clear that the IOC went to Sochi because the Russians promised to pay whatever it takes (and then some) and you're probably right. (That said, Sochi was--by far--the most fun I've ever had at an Olympics, winter or summer, because it was disorganised but had a lot of money; eta Rossiya is a phrase I will never forget.) Corruption matters less if the people are still watching on TV--the real risk the IOC runs. It's already had to change the Winter Games to keep younger viewers, and if only autocracies can host then why not just watch the X Games in Aspen? Agenda 2020 and New Norm are really aimed at making TV viewers feel less guilty about watching the event, FIFA can get away with more because the punters tend to watch football regardless of what happens off the pitch; the IOC is not so lucky, particularly when the US still provides much of its revenue.

FIFA also got burned by South Africa 2010 (which it had to bail out), just as Rio 2016 was a mess behind the scenes, held together with duct tape. The last thing the IOC wants is risk which the Swedes--amateurishly--refused to provide reassurance on. 

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IDK, PyeongChang won on it’s third, consecutive try (I don’t see Sweden doing that now). Plus, Sweden has already tried eight different times over many decades & has gotten zilch. That’s enough to turn anyone off from trying yet again. It’s like Sweden has now become the new Madrid/Istanbul. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

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10 minutes ago, FYI said:

IDK, PyeongChang won on it’s third, consecutive try (I don’t see Sweden doing that now). Plus, Sweden has already tried eight different times over many decades & has gotten zilch. That’s enough to turn anyone off from trying yet again. It’s like Sweden has now become the new Madrid/Istanbul. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

Because the other bids it's up against are appreciably so MUCH better logistically, technically and with more popular support.  

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That’s why I don’t envision a(nother) Scandinavian Winter Olympics anytime soon (not to mention a Swiss or Austrian, either).

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56 minutes ago, FYI said:

That’s why I don’t envision a(nother) Scandinavian Winter Olympics anytime soon (not to mention a Swiss or Austrian, either).

Yep. Lillehammer at Youth Olympics may be the last. Maybe Stockholm could win a Youth Summer Olympics / European Games now (Buenos Aires got 2018). 

Although, considering the low level of political and audience support for international prospects like Euro UEFA. They hadn't any plan or talk since 2016. Much less with Italy and the Balkans working for 2028 and dropping fast for 2020 and 2024...

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The odd thing is that the big winter IFs (FIS, IBSF, IBU) are run by northern Europeans who may want to see their home countries host someday. (This fact makes it even odder that the Swedes did not recruit one of them to help with the IOC politics; they paid more attention to their internal politics than the constituency that matters.)

I also don't think the logistics are a dealbreaker; they just needed better answers (e.g. sleeper trains) than the ones they gave. In PyeongChang people rarely moved same day between the snow and ice clusters, and moving within the snow cluster was hard. Showing expected movement patterns and addressing concerns on things like hotel rooms would have gone a long way. Falling down technically was one of the ways they failed to reassure on risk. If you're going to go spread out at least show how that will work. Helsinki's failed 2006 bid (which proposed Lillehammer as the mountain cluster) had a transport plan involving flying between cluster--not sustainable, perhaps, but they had an answer. Calling yourself the most sustainable bid ever without acknowledging that many stakeholders will be flying was also a mistake; once again, talking mostly to themselves and about their own virtues rather than calling it what it is; Milan Cortina's transport plan is hours on coaches on mountain roads, but they admitted that at least.

This all came down to hubris; the Swedes appeared to really think that Agenda 2020 / New Norm meant the IOC was desperate, not that Lausanne wanted its ego to be stroked. The Swedes did not want it badly enough to "do what it takes" politically. That is the issue with the lack of a story. The Brazilians sold themselves as a rising power that had never hosted, and look at where that got the IOC--a disorganised games in the middle of a political crisis. A sports power which has never hosted is not enough of a narrative, but the Swedes really appeared to believe it.

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But I thought the Swedes looked better sartorially in front of the cameras than the more motley Italians.  Small consolation for them.  Oh well. 

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20 hours ago, Smitty said:

The odd thing is that the big winter IFs (FIS, IBSF, IBU) are run by northern Europeans who may want to see their home countries host someday. (This fact makes it even odder that the Swedes did not recruit one of them to help with the IOC politics; they paid more attention to their internal politics than the constituency that matters.)

I also don't think the logistics are a dealbreaker; they just needed better answers (e.g. sleeper trains) than the ones they gave. In PyeongChang people rarely moved same day between the snow and ice clusters, and moving within the snow cluster was hard. Showing expected movement patterns and addressing concerns on things like hotel rooms would have gone a long way. Falling down technically was one of the ways they failed to reassure on risk. If you're going to go spread out at least show how that will work. Helsinki's failed 2006 bid (which proposed Lillehammer as the mountain cluster) had a transport plan involving flying between cluster--not sustainable, perhaps, but they had an answer. Calling yourself the most sustainable bid ever without acknowledging that many stakeholders will be flying was also a mistake; once again, talking mostly to themselves and about their own virtues rather than calling it what it is; Milan Cortina's transport plan is hours on coaches on mountain roads, but they admitted that at least.

This all came down to hubris; the Swedes appeared to really think that Agenda 2020 / New Norm meant the IOC was desperate, not that Lausanne wanted its ego to be stroked. The Swedes did not want it badly enough to "do what it takes" politically. That is the issue with the lack of a story. The Brazilians sold themselves as a rising power that had never hosted, and look at where that got the IOC--a disorganised games in the middle of a political crisis. A sports power which has never hosted is not enough of a narrative, but the Swedes really appeared to believe it.

To be fair, at the time of the 2016 vote, the Brazilian economy was in a better place by the time they hosted.  7 years later, not so much.  So there's only so much that the IOC can be blamed for make that decision at the time they did.

Yes, the Swedes lacked a narrative, perhaps in part from the fear of putting themselves out there knowing their efforts lacked support.  I agree the logistics weren't a huge issue and that the IOC could have gotten behind it if the Swedish organizers and their citizens were backing it.

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On 6/26/2019 at 1:48 PM, baron-pierreIV said:

Until Sweden does a Beijing-Sochi and spends oodles of kroner to build bullet train service between Stockholm and the mountains PLUS, have their own sliding track, they will NEVER get it if the Games are just rotated between the following, MORE COMPACT settings  (I don't mean combined; just showing them as representative of that region):

1.  Salt Lake, maybe Denver/Aspen/Colorado Springs

2.  Vancouver/Calgary,

3.  Sapporo/Nagano,

4.  Milano/Cortina/Torino,

5. Oslo/Lillehammer - Amsterdam,

6. Grenoble/Annecy,

7. Albertville/Geneva,

8.  PyeongChang,  

9.  a possible NE North American bid of Lake Placid-Montreal-Boston-Killington. 

10. Almaty

11.  dark horse Ulan Bator

12. an Iberian bid; Andorra, Barcelona, Jaca, Zaragoza

When all is forgiven with Russia and Putin is overthrown, I am sure the IOC would love to go back to Sochi and use those facilities again!   The IOC, if it also wanted a Nobel Peace Prize, could afford to resurrect and rebuild Sarajevo. 

So Sweden must really have a COMPELLING story to tell; none of this "Agenda 2020" window dressing which I know, in its heart of hearts, the IOC doesn't really care for.  It's just lip service.  

 

Thinking 2030 SLC is all but a sure thing, its obviously the heavy popular favorite.  After that, I do think Sapporo, Grenoble/Annecy/Chamonix, agree when Putin is finally done Sochi could be an option again, and......yes.......maybe ole Almaty will finally get taken to the dance by then.  

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31 minutes ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

 

Thinking 2030 SLC is all but a sure thing, its obviously the heavy popular favorite.  After that, I do think Sapporo, Grenoble/Annecy/Chamonix, agree when Putin is finally done Sochi could be an option again, and......yes.......maybe ole Almaty will finally get taken to the dance by then.  

Annecy should be a great place for the ceremonies venue I loved their plan building a temporary Olympic Stand overlooking the lake and mountains for the ceremonies have the Opening Ceremony begin at Day light and watch the sunset by the Olympic Flag is raised, It will like it will be like the Singapore 2010 and Guangzhou 2010 Asian Games ceremonies venues, Albertville can host the Speed Skating and the Curling events with Grenoble or Lyons can host the ICE Hockey and Short track and figure skating  events. The Games village should be in Albertville and the ceremonies venue for the 1992 Games could be the medal plaza.

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On 6/28/2019 at 7:40 PM, Olympianfan said:

Annecy should be a great place for the ceremonies venue I loved their plan building a temporary Olympic Stand overlooking the lake and mountains for the ceremonies have the Opening Ceremony begin at Day light and watch the sunset by the Olympic Flag is raised, It will like it will be like the Singapore 2010 and Guangzhou 2010 Asian Games ceremonies venues, Albertville can host the Speed Skating and the Curling events with Grenoble or Lyons can host the ICE Hockey and Short track and figure skating  events. The Games village should be in Albertville and the ceremonies venue for the 1992 Games could be the medal plaza.

Annecy won't bid again, the city is overcrowed because there are already too much tourists. Moreover the city has some problems with air pollution. Citizen don't want WoG and no more tourists, it's an import issue for citizen since some years.

It will be very difficult to see WoG in France in the futur, there is a very strong opposition about WoG in the Alps and about this kind of business. 
With the news IOC rules to Bid, maybe we could se a bid from Lyon... But I'm not optimist about. WoG lost a lot in public opinion with Sotchi, Peyongchang and now Beijing... It's too late to change the minds about WoG in France. 

I'm very surprise about public support for Milano/Cortina. I think is a bad choice for WoG, with this kind of bid you lost the Alpin village atmosphere whom was a strength in the past for Alpin WoG. Milan isn't an Alpin or Winter city... 

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There’ll never be another village/town-style Winter Olympics again. Not without decoupling the indoor & outdoor parts of the Games. With the best will in the world, no Lillehammer-sized town is gonna support 4 indoor arenas & an indoor speed rink. Even Gangneung & Sochi (fair sized cities) were struggling a bit as to what to do with their indoor arenas. So unless you’re gonna go temporary, you need a big city - there’s just no other way these venues will be used. 

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4 hours ago, yoshi said:

There’ll never be another village/town-style Winter Olympics again. Not without decoupling the indoor & outdoor parts of the Games. With the best will in the world, no Lillehammer-sized town is gonna support 4 indoor arenas & an indoor speed rink. Even Gangneung & Sochi (fair sized cities) were struggling a bit as to what to do with their indoor arenas. So unless you’re gonna go temporary, you need a big city - there’s just no other way these venues will be used. 

I'm not sure you need a big city, a middle size city could be ok to host WoG. You need a stadium to host opening/closing ceremonies, it could be a temporary one like in Salt Lake, Albertville etc.

To host speed skating you need an athletics track who can be transform in a temporary ice track.

For Ice Hockey, Figure Skating and Short track you need something more durable but for a middle size city isn't a problem, but I think it's the most important expense item with olympic village (Capacity around 2800 Athletes). Where I live the city grow up about 2000 people each year since 20 years, it's an opportunity to build an Olympic Village for this kind of city. Usually Alpin cities are attractives and grow up since the 60's/70's. 

The other venues could be host in ski resorts close to the host city like in Albertville/Lillehammer etc. You have a lot of possibilities in Europe or North America with this kind of configuration. To host tourists/athletes isn't a problem too, each winter middle size cities in Alps welcome millions of tourists each year, they have accommodations. I don't understand why IOC say not every time for this kind of Bids, they are able to host WoG. 

Each Alpin/Nordic countries have around 2 or 5 middle size cities able to host WoG. For exemple France has Annecy, Chambery, Albertville, Grenoble, Gap able to host WoG and more if you do like Milano/Cortina, you could add Lyon, Nice and Toulouse. It's the same in Switzerland (Sion, Bern, Lucern etc.), Austria, Germany, Norway etc. 

The reason why you don't have this kind of Host cities is because IOC don't want and I don't know why. 

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On 8/29/2019 at 11:22 AM, Tulsa said:

To host speed skating you need an athletics track who can be transform in a temporary ice track.

Speed skating rinks are different dimensions from athletics stadiums. It is possible to put a temporary rink inside an athletics stadium, but there is a very large distance from the stands to the ice.

https://cdn.decoolstebaanvannederland.nl/app/uploads/2017/02/banner-1.jpg

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On 8/31/2019 at 4:53 PM, Nacre said:

Speed skating rinks are different dimensions from athletics stadiums. It is possible to put a temporary rink inside an athletics stadium, but there is a very large distance from the stands to the ice.

https://cdn.decoolstebaanvannederland.nl/app/uploads/2017/02/banner-1.jpg

I’m not sure how it was in person but on TV the 2018 World Allround were spectacular. I’d really like to see that kind of setup tried at an Olympics.

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