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BidWeek: As 2026 Olympic Bid Race Begins To Collapse, IOC Must Stop Talking And Do Something


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Do I think Europe will skip an entire generation?  Why yes.........yes I do, and totally voluntarily and of their own choice.  They are done with the festivities and will gladly let other countries host.

Where are the mountain locales in Europe that would still give this festival the time of day?  Scandinavia? Nope.  Switzerland? Nope.  Austria? Double Nope.  Germany? nope.  Even Poland voted theirs down.  Romania struggles to find funding for an airport in Brasov, let alone olympic funds.  Dont see any Balkan or Baltic nations playing that game.  Ukraine......we already knowing whats going on there.  The only.........only European-like nation that I can see at least trying to be up for it in a post 2030 world is Georgia, and that would be a tall ask for a small nation that already needs to invest in plenty of infrastructure first.  For all those reasons, a Sochi redux in the 2040s is probably appealing.  

Yes sir, this party is going to be hopping between Asia and North America for some time, barring a valiant jump to the southern hemisphere.  Almaty will eventually get it because of the bidding climate and the fact, politics aside, their tightly wound infrastructure plan was logistically very appealing.  Its arguably been the most "project 2020" bid we have seen yet.  From a pure sporting position, and "keeping it real", I was really hoping for them to get it over Beijing, they were so close.

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12 minutes ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

Do I think Europe will skip an entire generation?  Why yes.........yes I do, and totally voluntarily and of their own choice.  They are done with the festivities and will gladly let other countries host.

Where are the mountain locales in Europe that would still give this festival the time of day?  Scandinavia? Nope.  Switzerland? Nope.  Austria? Double Nope.  Germany? nope.  Even Poland voted theirs down.  

Yeah, I know. But as you can see for yourself, someone out there enjoys to argue the “but it’s next to impossible to figure who might be there in the future” mantra. Is it really that ‘impossible’? No, not really. Totally dismissing all of the negative referendum results & bid withdrawals from Western European democracies for nearly the past decade now simply for the fact that we can’t predict the future? Well, no kidding.  Switzerland in particular (& we can really add Austria to that list now, too), is a haven for a No-Olympics attitude. And I don’t see that changing anytime soon, either. 

Sure, none of us really know what the future might bring. But there’s always indicators of what that future could entail. At the very least for the immediate future. Two or three decades from now is a totally different story & I would agree with that sentiment in that instance. But that’s not the case here whatsoever. And that goes with any business out there as well. There’s always past available data to use as judgement to help determine future outcomes. That’s how companies run a lot of the time, too, & I see this as not much different.

33 minutes ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

Romania struggles to find funding for an airport in Brasov, let alone olympic funds.  Dont see any Balkan or Baltic nations playing that game.  Ukraine......we already knowing whats going on there.  The only.........only European-like nation that I can see at least trying to be up for it in a post 2030 world is Georgia, and that would be a tall ask for a small nation that already needs to invest in plenty of infrastructure first.  For all those reasons, a Sochi redux in the 2040s is probably appealing.  

These aren’t “traditional winter sport powers” anyway, which is what the IOC is desperate for these days & which they likely won’t get for quite some time yet.

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21 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

Do I think Europe will skip an entire generation?  Why yes.........yes I do, and totally voluntarily and of their own choice.  They are done with the festivities and will gladly let other countries host.

Where are the mountain locales in Europe that would still give this festival the time of day?  Scandinavia? Nope.  Switzerland? Nope.  Austria? Double Nope.  Germany? nope.  Even Poland voted theirs down.  Romania struggles to find funding for an airport in Brasov, let alone olympic funds.  Dont see any Balkan or Baltic nations playing that game.  Ukraine......we already knowing whats going on there.  The only.........only European-like nation that I can see at least trying to be up for it in a post 2030 world is Georgia, and that would be a tall ask for a small nation that already needs to invest in plenty of infrastructure first.  For all those reasons, a Sochi redux in the 2040s is probably appealing.  

Yes sir, this party is going to be hopping between Asia and North America for some time, barring a valiant jump to the southern hemisphere.  Almaty will eventually get it because of the bidding climate and the fact, politics aside, their tightly wound infrastructure plan was logistically very appealing.  Its arguably been the most "project 2020" bid we have seen yet.  From a pure sporting position, and "keeping it real", I was really hoping for them to get it over Beijing, they were so close.

They were indeed about as close as they can get.  Yet, where are they now?  PyeongChang had not 1, but 2 close calls, but stayed in the running and eventually won it.  I agree that Almaty will eventually try again, but they'd have been in a decent position if they were here now.  As for Europe, you're that confident in predicting how they'll feel about the Olympics 20 years from now?  What about Norway, as thatsnotmypuppy alluded to.. they're still mulling over 2030.  What about France, as suggest by some other random poster?  It's easy to look at the current state of affairs in Europe and think it's a lost cause for the next 2 decades.  In the moment, that sure feels like where we're headed, but perhaps it's not actually destined to stay that way.  A post 2030 world?  Way too early to write off nearly the whole of Europe.  Let alone to say it will come back to Sochi.  Let's see how well they maintain their infrastructure to where it's ready to go again 25 or so years from now or if they need to spend another $50 billion to get it done.  Don't know how appealing that will be.

Also, with North America.. there's only 2 countries that can host.  If Calgary gets another one, how long before they or Vancouver are willing to give it another go?  Ditto with the United States after Salt Lake (can't see the USOC choosing another other candidate to put forward.. not Lake Placid-Albany, not Bozeman, and I don't see the will to get it done in either Reno-Tahoe or Denver to where they'll be a more appealing option over SLC).  Asia has more to offer since Sapporo will likely be out there and eventually Almaty as well. 

But here's the thing about Europe.  The IOC doesn't need a return to the days where they have a full field of bidders with interest from multiple countries.  They only need 1.  Much as the 2024 Olympics are in Europe because 1 city stuck it out while the others fell by the way, that's all they need on the Winter side.  Easier said than done, I know.  But I'm confident that at some point in the next decade, some European country/city (I'd guess Norway) will manage to pull it all together and the IOC will be thrilled beyond belief to have it.

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Anyway, as far as Norway is concerned, like I’ve also said about the Swiss all along, I’ll believe in a Norwegian bid when I finally get to see one (on the actual voting table). 2022 would’ve literally been handed to them on a silver-platter & what did they choose to do instead? Tell the IOC to get lost. For 2026 all they did was provide lip-service that “maybe 2030 would be a better time”. Again, I’ll believe that when I see it. I actually have more faith in Sweden than I do with Norway right now. Stockholm 2026 is still stubbornly in this. Perhaps they think that’s what it’ll take. So we’ll see. 

As for the rest of (Western) Europe, Germany seems to be mulling over a(nother 2032) Summer bid, than gauging winter aspirations again, which were rejected the last time anyway. Switzerland/Austria? Yeah, right. Spain? Yeah, sure (they have too many internal problems right now. Not to mention that a bid from them would be the opposite of what “agenda 2020” is supposedly about). So then we’re just left with France & Italy. Again, France I could possibly see for 2034 if Paris 2024 runs mostly smooth & the French don’t get Olympic fatigue. Italy seems to be a mixed bag. The country that said no to two consecutive Summer Olympic bids (2020 & 2024). How would they feel about a Winter Olympic bid? Not to mention, the last time the Winter Olympics were in Western Europe, they were in Italy - so is that really a plus? As far as “spreading Olympism”, no. As far as ‘agenda 2020’ is concerned, perhaps. 

Regardless in how all this plays out, though, I still see the possibility (with viable bids of course) of a double playing out, with or without Europe in the picture. I’m sure that the IOC is getting tired of being on pins & needles with all these Euro bids just constantly dropping like flies, & would like a break from the bad PR for a change such negative bid races entail these days.

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Thats where I am on Europe as well.  The proof is in the previous details;  Oslo turned down a silver platter; it was theirs.  Instead, the IOC got a palm to the face.  Sweden has gone up to the table and turned bids down multiple times now at government level.  Even Norway I cant see right now.  The only one in the whole of Europe besides Turin that I could fathom succeeding and being supported by the people right now is in France, and it would have to be the absolutely perfect storm for it to get pushed through (much like Calgary now.)  I guess I am in the "pessimistic" boat.In fact, I think they will get even MORE stringent on spending than less in the 2030s.  This is why Sapporo and Almaty make sense 2034/38 in whatever order (unless France decides it seriously wants to play ball in either).

A Sochi bid down the road, say 2042 (same timeframe as between SLCs  first bid and second) wouldnt be unreasonable assuming upkeep was kept on the slopes, roads, mountains, and stadium.  As far as a tourist destination, there is too much riding on it as a holiday destination (summer and winter)  to fall into disrepair.  They might have to re-up the ski jumps and ice tracks, but thats nothing out of the sort for the usual bids; most of the original stuff would already be there.  One that could be a big problem at that point that might not get enough playtime is climate change and what it does to that area.  

North America, if Calgary gets it, and the heavy 2030 favorite Salt Lake city get it two in a row, thats probably gonna be it for North America for a few cycles.  Everything out of Calgary right now has a feeling of "now or never".  They will literally be the saviors of the IOC if they are able to scrape a vote and bid together.  I'll also be rooting very hard for Calgary, because it could set a great example of what Project 2020 will look like to other nations; not Pyeongchang, or even Beijing.  

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11 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

Thats where I am on Europe as well.  The proof is in the previous details;  Oslo turned down a silver platter; it was theirs.  Instead, the IOC got a palm to the face.  Sweden has gone up to the table and turned bids down multiple times now at government level.  Even Norway I cant see right now.  The only one in the whole of Europe besides Turin that I could fathom succeeding and being supported by the people right now is in France, and it would have to be the absolutely perfect storm for it to get pushed through (much like Calgary now.)  I guess I am in the "pessimistic" boat.In fact, I think they will get even MORE stringent on spending than less in the 2030s.  This is why Sapporo and Almaty make sense 2034/38 in whatever order (unless France decides it seriously wants to play ball in either).

A Sochi bid down the road, say 2042 (same timeframe as between SLCs  first bid and second) wouldnt be unreasonable assuming upkeep was kept on the slopes, roads, mountains, and stadium.  As far as a tourist destination, there is too much riding on it as a holiday destination (summer and winter)  to fall into disrepair.  They might have to re-up the ski jumps and ice tracks, but thats nothing out of the sort for the usual bids; most of the original stuff would already be there.  One that could be a big problem at that point that might not get enough playtime is climate change and what it does to that area.  

North America, if Calgary gets it, and the heavy 2030 favorite Salt Lake city get it two in a row, thats probably gonna be it for North America for a few cycles.  Everything out of Calgary right now has a feeling of "now or never".  They will literally be the saviors of the IOC if they are able to scrape a vote and bid together.  I'll also be rooting very hard for Calgary, because it could set a great example of what Project 2020 will look like to other nations; not Pyeongchang, or even Beijing.  

The previous details tell us a story of history.  Yes, that history can be used to learn about the future, but there's nothing to be proven here.  This isn't a mathematical problem that comes with a definitive solution.

As I said on the other thread, these cities aren't rejecting the Olympics so much as they are rejecting the IOC.  Oslo told the IOC to piss off because of a 7,000 page list of requirements they didn't want to deal with.  Stockholm dropped out in part because they didn't think the IOC would be interested in their plan to use Are as a venue for the alpine events.  These are things that the IOC can change.  We're seeing them at least start to acknowledge that they need to go about dealing with host cities differently.  Is that enough to entire a Norway or a France back into the picture.  Can the IOC repair their image to where citizens of many countries wouldn't start to view them as a massive liability rather than an entity that can do good by them and their citizens?  Yea, Norweigans probably won't forget how the IOC told them off after Oslo's pull out.  I'm betting given another couple of years, that may feel like ancient history.

Again, you say it would take a perfect storm to make it happen, but that's now.  5 or 10 years from now, perhaps the IOC is more receptive to their concerns and figures how to manage those issues without the worry of leaving a city holding the bag when the Games are over.  Time may not heal all wounds in this case, but sometimes it helps.  Calgary is in a precarious position because there is a vote involved.  Losing that vote would undoubtedly knock them out for 2030 and probably longer if SLC gets those Olympics.  But a couple of cycles down the road?  Certainly feasible.  After all, "never" is a long time.  I don't think the IOC has the luxury of trying to provide an example to other countries.  The many rejections of 2022 came on the heels of the Sochi Olympics, not only one that went way over budget, but an Olympics that is a symbol for corruption.  The lack of interest since them is probably tainted by Rio's shortcomings.  And perhaps it's no coincidence that these 2 countries recently both put on successful World Cups, which are much easier to plan out and manage.

Either way, the point of Agenda 2020 is to better work with the cities that might be bidding, not to provide an example for other cities.  Because many times, what works for 1 city won't necessarily apply elsewhere.  It's not so much a matter of finding a city that can host the Olympics without spending a ton of money.  It's working with the IOC and putting together a plan that works for everyone involved.  If the IOC can every see clear to that, they'll be in much better shape

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If Sapporo Japan has to host the 2026 Winter Games then I think they will do so the California high speed rail project will be open up after the LA 2028 games.

For Asia South (Korea), China and Japan would have hosted the games back to back. 

There is another 3 countries in Asia which could host the Winter Games Almaty (Kazakhstan), Baku (Azerbaijan) and possibly (Iran) but the current government of Iran needs to go for that to be possible, Could Baku do a Beijing and host the both Summer and Winter Games in a short time?

If Calgary votes NO it could be Sapporo Japan 2026 - USA 2030 - then Almaty Kazakhstan 2034. While Korea and China might fight it out for the Summer games in the late 2030s and 2040s, Baku could be in a prime spot to host an Winter Games with the current possible bidders for the 2032 Summer Games Baku could be in a good place to make a bid for 2032 and get it then go for the Winter Games after that in 2042 or 2046.

The IOC could allow the Southern Hemisphere to host the Winter Games if need be Europe and Canada if Calgary votes NO don't have a leg on to say when the games can be held now so they lost it's rights it could open up the games to be held in Chile and New Zealand, The Asian countries would not mind if the Winter Games are being held in July so the IOC needs to open up the Southern Hemisphere to have the games if they want good places to go to if Europe don't want them any more.

If the IOC don't allow the games to be held in July we could be going to places like Georgia or Iran instead of Chile and New Zealand.

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Its an interesting and eye opening discussion that the Sapporo bid has absolutely nothing to do with the high speed rail thing, much like Los Angeles, but it makes perfect sense theyd use that as a crutch early on.  Especially the bit about the airports being able to take on the capacity currently, as-is.  So something is amiss there and, like someone else said, there is more to this story than just that, and ill be paying close attention to that.

You seem to like Baku as a both summer and winter games option.  Summer I get, tell me about the winter games though?  If we were going to do the Caucuses, why not Georgia instead?  Wouldnt the IOC be scared off by the frozen conflict in the west with Armenia?  or would it be in the north near Dagestan (also not the safest or regions).  Do they have any infrastructure already in place?  skiing, arenas?  Not being snide, legitimately curious and too lazy to google because Im about to go to work.

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4 hours ago, Olympianfan said:

If Sapporo Japan has to host the 2026 Winter Games then I think they will do so the California high speed rail project will be open up after the LA 2028 games.

For Asia South (Korea), China and Japan would have hosted the games back to back. 

There is another 3 countries in Asia which could host the Winter Games Almaty (Kazakhstan), Baku (Azerbaijan) and possibly (Iran) but the current government of Iran needs to go for that to be possible, Could Baku do a Beijing and host the both Summer and Winter Games in a short time?

If Calgary votes NO it could be Sapporo Japan 2026 - USA 2030 - then Almaty Kazakhstan 2034. While Korea and China might fight it out for the Summer games in the late 2030s and 2040s, Baku could be in a prime spot to host an Winter Games with the current possible bidders for the 2032 Summer Games Baku could be in a good place to make a bid for 2032 and get it then go for the Winter Games after that in 2042 or 2046.

The IOC could allow the Southern Hemisphere to host the Winter Games if need be Europe and Canada if Calgary votes NO don't have a leg on to say when the games can be held now so they lost it's rights it could open up the games to be held in Chile and New Zealand, The Asian countries would not mind if the Winter Games are being held in July so the IOC needs to open up the Southern Hemisphere to have the games if they want good places to go to if Europe don't want them any more.

If the IOC don't allow the games to be held in July we could be going to places like Georgia or Iran instead of Chile and New Zealand.

Iran?  Sochi wasn't far enough south that Iran would warrant a shot?

The Olympics going to the Southern Hemisphere is not about the IOC *allowing* the games to be held in July.  It's about a country putting forth a bid to hold the Olympics then and convincing everyone involved that it's the best choice.  Aside from the countries involved (and no, it's a BS argument to say that countries who reject the Olympics lose their rights to choose), what about all the sport federations?  Would FIS accept having the Olympics several months removed from their World Cup seasons?  Would the ISU accept having their signature event in the middle of the summer when they'd be competing with the World Cup?  That's who needs to be convinced to allow this and I don't see that happening anytime soon.  We've seen what a clusterfuck it is for FIFA to alter the calendar for the World Cup.  It's an even bigger leap to ask the IOC to sign on for that.  To say nothing of the fact that it may simply not be worthwhile for a Chile or a New Zealand to offer up for that in the first place.

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1 hour ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

Its an interesting and eye opening discussion that the Sapporo bid has absolutely nothing to do with the high speed rail thing, much like Los Angeles, but it makes perfect sense theyd use that as a crutch early on.  Especially the bit about the airports being able to take on the capacity currently, as-is.  So something is amiss there and, like someone else said, there is more to this story than just that, and ill be paying close attention to that.

At a point in time where all these cities (mostly in Europe, as opposed to scattered elsewhere) are  skeptical of hosting the Olympics and/or rejecting them outright, should it be that surprising that a city like Sapporo isn't falling all over themselves to get the next available Olympics?  Maybe it's as simple as them not wanting to be committed to an Olympics - and the money that's necessary to make it happen - until after Tokyo 2020 is complete and the JOC can focus more of their attention on Sapporo.  I'm confident we'll see an Olympics there in the next 20 years or so.  Doesn't necessarily need to be the next one though, especially not with the previous 2 Olympics in East Asia.  If the IOC had their druthers, which they most decidedly do not, I'm sure they'd prefer to not go back to East Asia for a 3rd straight Olympics.  Perhaps the Sapporo folks acknowledge this and would like to wait a little before they get their Olympics.

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If it was as “simple” as Sapporo not committing themselves to an Olympics, then why are they now saying that 2030 would be a better time, instead of 20 years from now (talking about who’s trying to predict the future now). If this was that much of a burden on them, then why not just pull out of 2026 altogether (like Graz did). 

And no kidding that the IOC would prefer somewhere else besides East Asia for a third straight Winter Olympics. But Sapporo (& the JOC, for that matter) already knew the circumstances when they submitted their bid last March. It’s not like that aspect is some sort of new revelation that has just developed over the past few weeks or days. But in the end, Sapporo will most likely end up being in the recent, reliable bid category. And the IOC will thank their lucky stars that they at least have that & not Erzurum ot some other despot.

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14 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

You seem to like Baku as a both summer and winter games option.  Summer I get, tell me about the winter games though?  If we were going to do the Caucuses, why not Georgia instead?  Wouldnt the IOC be scared off by the frozen conflict in the west with Armenia?  or would it be in the north near Dagestan (also not the safest or regions).  Do they have any infrastructure already in place?  skiing, arenas?  Not being snide, legitimately curious and too lazy to google because Im about to go to work.

The Ski resorts in Azerbaijan is around Mount Shahdagh which is about a 3 hour drive North from Baku, The Ice events would be in Baku o Course and the snow and sliding events around Mount Shahdagh it's a very popular ski resorts will allot of hotels around it so it's very doable a Winter Olympic and Paralympics Games in Azerbaijan.   

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“If we were going to do the Caucasus, why not Georgia instead?” End quote

The thing is, we’ve already gone to the Caucasus by the way of Sochi 2014. So very, very doubtful that the IOC is in any big hurry to go back to the region so soon (especially considering a lot of the bad PR Sochi has left with the association of massive costs with their 2014 Winter Games). Hence, why that’s also yet another drawback for Erzurum’s 2026 bid.

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I was thinking that would be collateral damage as well.  Especially since if Erzurum ever came to pass, there is every indication that it would be another Sochi budget games.  An even further tangent, Russia wouldnt want a competitor in the region to Sochi, which theyve invested a ton in to become a regional sports mecca.  

I researched on the Azerbaijan resort, how cool........I had no idea about its existence.  Maybe one day it happens.  Has the Azerbaijan government shown any indication they'd be up for something like that?  My guess is itd be pretty popular with Turks, Iranians, Saudis, the like.  

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2 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

I was thinking that would be collateral damage as well.  Especially since if Erzurum ever came to pass, there is every indication that it would be another Sochi budget games.  An even further tangent, Russia wouldnt want a competitor in the region to Sochi, which theyve invested a ton in to become a regional sports mecca. 

In post-Olympic Sochi, white elephants – and improved daily life

I don't think Sochi deserves the label of "sports mecca".  It was a resort town before the Olympics and I think that's what it's mostly known as now.  The investment and infrastructure was a big boon for them, but aside from the F-1 race they have annually, the region hasn't seen too many sports events come there recently (the World Cup notwithstanding, but that's more the stadium than anything else).  Could Erzurum, with similar investment become a competitor?  Don't know, but the question is what exactly would they be competing with?  And I know when a certain other poster reads that article, he knows what my favorite section is.  To be fair, it does help put Sochi's place in the world and specifically in Russia into perspective to understand what they're all about.

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sports mecca might be strong, but a regional powerhouse thatll draw crowds with the sanctions on Iran, Russia, and well......possibly until recently, Turkey.  As far as regional tourism goes It it looks to be gathering a good crowd and doing quite well.  Freely admit if i had the time and leave Id love to do the Sochi-Batumi-Tbilisi route, looks interesting as hell.  Sochi, despite the inundation of events, has been doing well as a summer and winter destination by the sounds of it.  So yeah, Erzerum probably would enter the calculus to a degree (though probably miniscule as Russians during tight times will stay with Russia, and Turks might go to Erzerum at least initially out of sheer curiousity).  Sochi is appealing to "patriotic Russians" to not go to western europe to enjoy a holiday at home, and it sounds like its actually been working out pretty well, especially since opening the Gambling Zone.  

I know Sochi is pretty much the antithesis of the traditional Olympic spirit........but as much as the IOC might not care to admit it, Putin's Sochi has a lot more common than they'd like with the IOC, and its the IOC's burden to shed that image.  Will they go full-on Project 2020 and really look to embrace frugality?  or will it be business as usual?  There arguably isnt a country in Europe now that believes the IOC as far as they can throw them, and for the time being, the pendulum has swung towards the authoritarians.  Calgary is our hope by being a new example, because Beijing sure as hell wont be.  Im still shaking my head in contempt at that total disaster; should have been Almaty..........hell should have been Oslo.  It should be a lecture on the IOC right now and how much they have to prove.  They need a calgary and a SLC to show well to get the europeans even slightly interested again IMO.  North America can save this party, but a lot depends on the Calgary voters right now, especially the elder romantics and the millenials.

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The whole "should have been Almaty" rhetoric is getting old.

Beijing didn't put that bad of a deal on the table.  Beijing itself is unlikely to have snow - however it has nearly all the ice venues there bar one.  Yes a high speed train is being built - the Chinese are building them like mad anyway.  Yes - the snow sports venues will have dubious legacy and may not be exactly ethical environmentally. I'm sure this can be said of most recent hosts - just google.  PC18 had issues, Sochi definitely did.  And yeah politically they are not exactly a beacon of openness and hope.

Almaty is in Kazakhstan.  A deeply corrupt, despotic regime.  Their human rights record is as bad as China's. Multiple venues needed to be constructed (few of which have materialised between the bids - so the claims of there being a need for them does not play out). Vast infrastructure upgrades were also required.  Winter there can be harsh and no-one wants to be watching ski jumping in minus 30 degree celcius weather.  A whole new airport would need to be built and getting a Kazakh visa is already a nightmare.

Both were as bad as each other - the big difference?  Better the devil you know.  Almaty was a new frontier - but not a stable one.  Furthermore the Central Asian countries are nowhere near the force that China is becoming in winter sports. Would an Almaty Games inspire a Tajikistani luger, or an Azerbaijani speed skater to strive that little bit harder? Unlikely.  Between the two the IOC made the right bad decision.

Edited by thatsnotmypuppy
More reasons Almaty was wrong.
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8 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

I know Sochi is pretty much the antithesis of the traditional Olympic spirit........but as much as the IOC might not care to admit it, Putin's Sochi has a lot more common than they'd like with the IOC, and its the IOC's burden to shed that image.  Will they go full-on Project 2020 and really look to embrace frugality?  or will it be business as usual?  There arguably isnt a country in Europe now that believes the IOC as far as they can throw them, and for the time being, the pendulum has swung towards the authoritarians.  Calgary is our hope by being a new example, because Beijing sure as hell wont be.  Im still shaking my head in contempt at that total disaster; should have been Almaty..........hell should have been Oslo.  It should be a lecture on the IOC right now and how much they have to prove.  They need a calgary and a SLC to show well to get the europeans even slightly interested again IMO.  North America can save this party, but a lot depends on the Calgary voters right now, especially the elder romantics and the millenials.

What exactly is the traditional Olympic spirit these days anyway?  Yea, the IOC was once about cities building these big monuments in their honor, but we've seen where that got them.  Hence their reforms of Agenda 2020 (not Project 2020) to give off the impression they're trying to cut costs.  And you're absolutely right that it's difficult to figure if the IOC is actually serious about it.  Either way though, the IOC doesn't have the benefit of choice.  If even they do have a preference, if only 1 or 2 bids are on the table for them, that's what they have to choose from.  May not be a can't of what they want.  And even if it's Calgary, that Olympics wouldn't happen until 2026.  Which means it could take a cycle or 2 before we see how that turns out.  And even then, if we're talking about Calgary or Salt Lake City hosting a successful Olympics, what will that show Europe?  They both have a good amount of their existing infrastructure.  Similar to an LA or a Paris, that means only a city with a lot in place and little to build is likely to succeed.  How many of those kinds of cities exist in Europe?  The answer is obviously higher than zero, and that's where Agenda 2020 needs to kick in where the IOC is more accepting of things that a decade ago would have been bid-killers.

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8 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

The whole "should have been Almaty" rhetoric is getting old.

Beijing didn't put that bad of a deal on the table.  Beijing itself is unlikely to have snow - however it has nearly all the ice venues there bar one.  Yes a high speed train is being built - the Chinese are building them like mad anyway.  Yes - the snow sports venues will have dubious legacy and may not be exactly ethical environmentally. I'm sure this can be said of most recent hosts - just google.  PC18 had issues, Sochi definitely did.  And yeah politically they are not exactly a beacon of openness and hope.

Almaty is in Kazakhstan.  A deeply corrupt, despotic regime.  Their human rights record is as bad as China's. Multiple venues needed to be constructed (few of which have materialised between the bids - so the claims of there being a need for them does not play out). Vast infrastructure upgrades were also required.  Winter there can be harsh and no-one wants to be watching ski jumping in minus 30 degree celcius weather.  A whole new airport would need to be built and getting a Kazakh visa is already a nightmare.

Both were as bad as each other - the big difference?  Better the devil you know.  Almaty was a new frontier - but not a stable one.  Furthermore the Central Asian countries are nowhere near the force that China is becoming in winter sports. Would an Almaty Games inspire a Tajikistani luger, or an Azerbaijani speed skater to strive that little bit harder? Unlikely.  Between the two the IOC made the right bad decision.

What it came down to is where did the IOC want to leave their legacy?  In an East Asian country of more than a billion people or a relatively obscure Central Asian country with 1 person for every 77 in China.  History should remember how close that decision was, but if we're going to play the "should have" game, then let's talk about Oslo, not Almaty.  Beijing will not pose the same problems as Sochi.  With China, they spent obscene amounts of money in 2008 to try and showcase themselves to the world.  Sochi was more about Putin and was fraught with corruption.  We can all list the numerous reasons why Beijing is not a good place to host a Winter Olympics, but given the alternative they had in front of them, hard to argue with the choice

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Yet you always still had some argue about the choice, & a few (well, mainly one in particular) very nastily, too. You also still have some around here, besides the poster in this thread, about what a “mistake” it was for the IOC to choose China for 2022 & that “it should have been” the other bid, & a lot of it is simply for the contempt that they have for China. As if the other bid was that much better anyway, which it clearly wasn’t, as been duly noted again here.

Interesting though, that Almaty still needed to construct multiple venues (when the argument was that they were ‘ready to go’) & that it would be a ‘very compact Games’. And yeah, speaking of the temperature there, people were already starting to complain when it looked like there for a while that PC 2018 was going to be a bitterly cold Winter Games when temperatures at some spots were hovering right around 40F below zero right before the start of the Games. It’s one of the arguments used against Harbin, which some said should’ve been the Chinese winter host instead, but that it’s way too cold there in the winter.

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