BidWeek: As 2026 Olympic Bid Race Begins To Collapse, IOC Must Stop Talking And Do Something

[FYI]

9 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

Sapporo is really the most ready "non recent" host - they are the Melbourne of Winter Sports.

Ohh,  don’t make those kind of comparisons, cuz a certain you-know-who around here doesn’t like them whatsoever. 

[FYI]

13 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Oh, you're exhausted?  Take a nap.. it will make you less cranky. Either that or make sure that you’re still on your meds.

Yet another “insulting” Quaker-ism remark. 

13 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Re: Sapporo.. Not to mention what to do about a sliding track.

The bid team has already announced that they can use Nagano’s track. No different from Barcelona proposing Albertville (in a totally different country) or Calgary saying that using Vancouver’s track is also an option. You’re just making excuses now, or in this instance - “contrarian”. 

[Quaker2001]

21 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

I'm not insulting you.

In regards to Sapporo - the Makomanai Ice Arena which would host the figure skating/short track has a 11,500 capacity so that is fine.  The Tsukisamu Gymnasium has a capacity of 2300 which will need a small expansion if they use that for curling.  The Tsudome has no official seating capacity but has a flexibility for up to 14,000 temporary seats - so there is your main Ice Hockey venue.  The Hokkaido Prefectural Sports Center has an 8,000 capacity in the main hall and 4,000 in the minor arena - so there is the second Ice Hockey arena and possibly curling.  The Sapporo Dome will host the ceremonies/victory celebrations.  The Obihiro Oval has a small permanent capacity but is expandable to 8,000 for speed skating with minimal structural work.

For the snow sports there are no issues bar the sliding sports - however the JOC have already said they would likely have these in Nagano where the 1998 track is needing minor adjustments and temporary seating.  If push comes to shove the M Wave could be used for speed skating - but that would be unlikely.  If the IOC allows outdoor speed skating to return the Makomanai Open Stadium (next to the arena and the main stadium in 1972) has a capacity of 17,000 and is still used in winter for some speed skating events.

Sapporo is really the most ready "non recent" host - they are the Melbourne of Winter Sports.

A Sapporo Games will not come with the vast infrastructure works that Tokyo has ended up lumping into their Games and won't need any major venue building.  It is not a fair comparison.

Thank you for a non-insulting post.  That's refreshing to see around here.  In turn, I will respond to you politely.  As opposed to Tweedledee and Tweedledum (a.k.a. those other posters) over there who are choosing to be massive assholes (and seem to have very similar personalities lately.. didn't realize they were so alike!).  So I'm not going to deal with them.  And I know that you know better than to think I was "jumping on" you, so hopefully we can have a respectful dialogue here.

I appreciate the info on Sapporo.  I looked up some of the particulars from the 2017 Asian Winter Games.  Seemed like the facilities were on the small side for a Winter Olympics, so they are there, but might need some work.  And most of the mountain venues will rely on temporary seating anyway, as most such facilities do.

Bringing up Tokyo is not for a basis of comparison.  It's not about trying to draw parallels.  It's an acknowledge that Japan is currently planning to host an Olympics and is having trouble reigning in the budget.  Adding a Winter Olympics on top of that, even in a city that is well-prepared to host the games, will magnify any concerns of issues of spending and financing.  Yes, that's unfair to Sapporo, but that's what they'd have to deal with for a 2026 bid.  Not to mention the implications of 3 straight Olympics in East Asia, 1 of which is in China where who knows what will happen with spending.  2030 would be a different story since that Olympics would be clear of Tokyo 2020.  

Hearing it directly from the folks in Sapporo, I came across this from February.  You tell me if this is painting an inaccurate picture.. As it eyes bid to host 2026 Winter Games, Sapporo mayor says city will aim to reduce costs

They're talking about a total budget of $4 billion USD, nearly half of which is "to ready facilities."  That's actually a lot more than what LA has in their budget for venues and infrastructure.  And that number is giving them pause.  This is what they're up against to get ready for an Olympics, let alone to put their efforts into a bid.  No question they have a leg up on virtually any city they might have to compete with.  But all of this is a part of the whole package they offer.  And again, in the context of a potential 2026 bid, having Tokyo out there if likely to affect perception of what Sapporo is up to, even if that perception paints a less than accurate picture.  No way to avoid that.

[FYI]

53 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

Thank you for a non-insulting post.  That's refreshing to see around here.  In turn, I will respond to you politely.  As opposed to Tweedledee and Tweedledum (a.k.a. those other posters) over there who are choosing to be massive assholes (and seem to have very similar personalities lately.. didn't realize they were so alike!).  So I'm not going to deal with them.  And I know that you know better than to think I was "jumping on" you, so hopefully we can have a respectful dialogue here.

Ohh, the sheer irony in this statement here.  Such sanctimonious tripe & then it finishes off with nothing but childish insults. Go figure! If you actually knew how to respond “politely” & have a “respectful dialogue”, there never would be an issue ITFP.

And so you’re not going to deal with “them”, yet your last post could’ve gone on without the petty retort of your first paragraph. So kudos to you for doing the exact opposite of what you said that you were “not” going to do. Sounds just like a certain president, though. Never admitting fault or when they’re wrong & just “choosing to be a massive as$hole” & instead just deflect blame & point the finger at others cuz that’s just easier than admitting that you’re also part of the problem, so congratulations!

And like again you told your friend “Tweedledee” (cuz you two are really the ones who are more alike than you want to admit) over in the other thread - “learn to handle criticism. Figure out how to deal with someone ‘disagreeing’ with you and offering a counter-point” - End quote. Can you say *hypocrite* much, Quaker? But so glad now that you’re done with us. It’s actually going to be “refreshing” to have discussions without having you “jump” on every post where I don’t agree with you. Cuz I’ve actually have had enough of your self-righteous, hypocritical diatribe that you’ve spewed here. So “I’m out”. Good riddance. You make it purely insufferable now. And for someone who always complains about GB’s, you sure have no problems on coming on here & engaging in everything that you b!tch about on a regular, virtually obsessive basis. Go fu@king figure.

[Quaker2001]

[thatsnotmypuppy]

19 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

Hearing it directly from the folks in Sapporo, I came across this from February.  You tell me if this is painting an inaccurate picture.. As it eyes bid to host 2026 Winter Games, Sapporo mayor says city will aim to reduce costs

They're talking about a total budget of $4 billion USD, nearly half of which is "to ready facilities."  That's actually a lot more than what LA has in their budget for venues and infrastructure.  And that number is giving them pause.  This is what they're up against to get ready for an Olympics, let alone to put their efforts into a bid.  No question they have a leg up on virtually any city they might have to compete with.  But all of this is a part of the whole package they offer.  And again, in the context of a potential 2026 bid, having Tokyo out there if likely to affect perception of what Sapporo is up to, even if that perception paints a less than accurate picture.  No way to avoid that.

That seems an improbably high figure.  I'm guessing the ski jumping stadiums could use some work - they are two seperate hills at the moment - not the same venue.  Maybe that included a sliding track and a new arena?  Neither are necesary. There will definitely be a need to expand access to the ski jump/s.  It's all residential area around it.  That is the only flaw I see. 

[Quaker2001]

3 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

That seems an improbably high figure.  I'm guessing the ski jumping stadiums could use some work - they are two seperate hills at the moment - not the same venue.  Maybe that included a sliding track and a new arena?  Neither are necesary. There will definitely be a need to expand access to the ski jump/s.  It's all residential area around it.  That is the only flaw I see. 

It does seem high, but it's coming from the city of Sapporo itself.  I don't know where they got that number from, but that's what their study says an Olympics would cost come 2026.  Same info contained here (on page 60)..

TRILATERAL ECONOMIC REPORT

Interesting that the difference in the higher estimate and the lower estimate is based on the venue to be used for speed skating.  Would have figured that one is taken care of with a relatively new venue.

[mountainboarder_530@yahoo.]

So is the JOC just being difficult for the sake of hopefully squeezing out a double bid and more money in the event everyone not named Erzurum drops out?  Or are they sincerely queezy about 2026.

[FYI]

At this point, I believe it’s more the former than the latter. Cuz as already been noted, they can just as easily handle 2026, & the excuse of the extra rail link for 2030 is muddled, since that project is not expected to be delivered ‘til 2031 anyway.

[mountainboarder_530@yahoo.]

interesting, I mean, its probably theirs in 2034 if they want it, almost by default by the way things are going.  

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

So is the JOC just being difficult for the sake of hopefully squeezing out a double bid and more money in the event everyone not named Erzurum drops out?  Or are they sincerely queezy about 2026.

They're spending a lot of money for Tokyo.  Can't entirely fault them that they're not necessarily so eager to lay out a few more billion for another Olympics.  A little later down the line, once Tokyo is over and done with, then they'll probably be more eager to pursue a Winter Olympics (not to mention a little extra time on from PyeongChang and Beijing wouldn't hurt matters)

[mountainboarder_530@yahoo.]

So, worst case scenario (that frankly is 50/50 at this point)..........lets entertain it a second.  Literally everyone drops out.  Erzurum is literally the only option.  The IOC says yes.  From a purely logistical standpoint, is Turkey going to be able to pull this off? Are the mountains high enough? is the snow good enough quality?   Will the infrastructure investment that could be Sochi-lite be worth it to the Turkish people?  I mean with Erdogan running the show, its obviously not gonna be  "project 2020", and will not reflect well on the IOC when they say "use existing infrastructure"; they will be starting completely from scratch and its gonna cost a solid chunk of change.  But, is it feasible?  can it be done without embarrassment from the IOC?

[FYI]

From what I understand, topographically speaking, Erzurum is an ideal location for the Winter Olympics. It has the snowfall & apparently the mountains. What’s not so attractive, is it’s locale near a volatile region. Not to mention, that Turkey itself seems to be succumbing to a more authoritarian regime these days. Surely Erdogan would throw plenty of cash at it, ala Putin, to make it happen. But yeah, is that what the IOC really needs now? A repeat of Sochi? That’s what has got them into this mess ITFP. Plus Erzurum, relatively speaking, is also in the same vicinity as the 2014 host. 

As for Sapporo - Tokyo 2020 (PC 2018 & Beijing 2022) were all known entities when the JOC submitted a bid for the 2026 Winter Games back in late March of this year. So it’s not like that should have caught them by surprise all of the sudden. As a matter of fact, the JOC president said back in January that Sapporo “is ready now”. And from what I gathered, it’s moreso city officials now, than the JOC itself, that want to push the date.

IMHO, if 2026 is such a burden & too heavy a cost on the JOC at this point, then why not just withdraw from 2026 altogether (just like Graz did). But so far, they haven’t. Which leads me to think that there’s more to this than what is readily apparent on the surface.

[thatsnotmypuppy]

The only reason the speed skating could be an issue is if the JOC decide having a single ice venue 200kms away from Sapporo is not in line with their "local Games" plan (minus the Nagano track of course).  Slapping a roof on the Makomanai Open Stadium is not going to cost that much if that is the solution they go with.

I honestly believe after the messy early preparations in Tokyo (once they got started though it is hard to dispute that they are on track to deliver a good Games) the local city government wants the Games paid for ahead of time - guarantees, huge IOC investment etc - then they can go back and say they are the first Games to be in the black years out from the Games.  Basically the Hokkaido Prefectural Government knows these Games could potentially be at almost zero local cost - so why not push for that?

[Quaker2001]

4 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

So, worst case scenario (that frankly is 50/50 at this point)..........lets entertain it a second.  Literally everyone drops out.  Erzurum is literally the only option.  The IOC says yes.  From a purely logistical standpoint, is Turkey going to be able to pull this off? Are the mountains high enough? is the snow good enough quality?   Will the infrastructure investment that could be Sochi-lite be worth it to the Turkish people?  I mean with Erdogan running the show, its obviously not gonna be  "project 2020", and will not reflect well on the IOC when they say "use existing infrastructure"; they will be starting completely from scratch and its gonna cost a solid chunk of change.  But, is it feasible?  can it be done without embarrassment from the IOC?

If the IOC is left with Erzurum and only Erzurum, they're well past the point of embarrassment.  Their choices then pretty much are to either have a Winter Olympics in an undesirable location or not have a Winter Olympics at all.  Fairly confident they'll choose the latter, regardless of the fallout from it.

[mountainboarder_530@yahoo.]

interesting stuff...........so it is a hell of a chasm between Almaty and Erzurum.  Just to think, if Almaty would have bid this cycle it would have been the big insurance policy and everyone would have been grateful for (still should have won out over Beijing for me but at least theres more than a few reasons why it didnt.  Still......better than Erzurum by a long shot).   What does that say about Erzerum, wow.  That would be a hell of a test in fortitude and humility if the IOC were to stomach Erzerum for 2026.  it is a hop, skip, and a jump from Kurdistan territory, and the PPK would love to steal the show there Id imagine. The Turkish military is reasonably adept and could conceivably create an acceptable security bubble, id say the security situation is lateral to Sochi (those Caucasus are closer than you think).   I dont know much about the region, but i know its super conservative Muslim, and not nearly as developed.  I've been to Istanbul in 2017 and even then I didnt feel overly safe venturing there (it was right after the bombings, and i couldnt say no to 55 a night in a 5 star hotel........ it was the epitome of a 1 and done trip, i dont need to go back).  Could it be the hub of winter sports activity for the Muslim world?  again, not sure, that does not seem like their cup of tea........no pun intended.  

So we wait and hope for the odds to favor Calgary, who the IOC is going to need desperately.  They are going to need to consider dumping some serious cash into commercials in favor of the referendum prior to the Olympics.  By the conjecture here, Calgary is pretty much where we should be putting all of our marbles, and right now id put it at 50/50 to make it through the vote.  Desperately hoping for a narrow majority.  I think they;ll get it, but its not gonna be comfortable.  

From my relatively novice viewpoint, its gonna be Calgary 2026, SLC (slight chance of surprise with Reno/Tahoe) 2030, Sapporo 2034, Almaty 2038, and Sochi cleaning up the rear again in 2042.  

[Quaker2001]

4 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

The only reason the speed skating could be an issue is if the JOC decide having a single ice venue 200kms away from Sapporo is not in line with their "local Games" plan (minus the Nagano track of course).  Slapping a roof on the Makomanai Open Stadium is not going to cost that much if that is the solution they go with.

I honestly believe after the messy early preparations in Tokyo (once they got started though it is hard to dispute that they are on track to deliver a good Games) the local city government wants the Games paid for ahead of time - guarantees, huge IOC investment etc - then they can go back and say they are the first Games to be in the black years out from the Games.  Basically the Hokkaido Prefectural Government knows these Games could potentially be at almost zero local cost - so why not push for that?

Someone at some point is going to have to pay for it and it's certainly not all going to come from the IOC.  If that were the case, they wouldn't be in the situation they're stuck in.  If it was that simple that the local government could host an Olympics at minimal cost and with minimal risk, wouldn't they be doing it?  Even the most ready made city with a rock solid plan will still have enormous costs to deal with.  Things like security, among other expenses.  If everyone involved feels like they can justify that investment, then yes, push for it.  But again, if it were that simple, we're likely not having this discussion right now because they'd be finding a way to make it happen rather than deciding whether or not it's worth it.

[Quaker2001]

2 hours ago, mountainboarder_530@yahoo. said:

interesting stuff...........so it is a hell of a chasm between Almaty and Erzurum.  Just to think, if Almaty would have bid this cycle it would have been the big insurance policy and everyone would have been grateful for (still should have won out over Beijing for me but at least theres more than a few reasons why it didnt.  Still......better than Erzurum by a long shot).   What does that say about Erzerum, wow.  That would be a hell of a test in fortitude and humility if the IOC were to stomach Erzerum for 2026.  it is a hop, skip, and a jump from Kurdistan territory, and the PPK would love to steal the show there Id imagine. The Turkish military is reasonably adept and could conceivably create an acceptable security bubble, id say the security situation is lateral to Sochi (those Caucasus are closer than you think).   I dont know much about the region, but i know its super conservative Muslim, and not nearly as developed.  I've been to Istanbul in 2017 and even then I didnt feel overly safe venturing there (it was right after the bombings, and i couldnt say no to 55 a night in a 5 star hotel........ it was the epitome of a 1 and done trip, i dont need to go back).  Could it be the hub of winter sports activity for the Muslim world?  again, not sure, that does not seem like their cup of tea........no pun intended.  

So we wait and hope for the odds to favor Calgary, who the IOC is going to need desperately.  They are going to need to consider dumping some serious cash into commercials in favor of the referendum prior to the Olympics.  By the conjecture here, Calgary is pretty much where we should be putting all of our marbles, and right now id put it at 50/50 to make it through the vote.  Desperately hoping for a narrow majority.  I think they;ll get it, but its not gonna be comfortable.  

From my relatively novice viewpoint, its gonna be Calgary 2026, SLC (slight chance of surprise with Reno/Tahoe) 2030, Sapporo 2034, Almaty 2038, and Sochi cleaning up the rear again in 2042.  

So you think the Winter Olympics would be away from Europe for nearly a generation?  Not to mention they'd return to the same city on the continent that they were last in?

There's no sense in trying to predict the distance future.  Could anyone have imagined 5 years ago where we'd be right now?  Maybe it says something about Almaty that they fell a mere 4 votes shy of winning for 2022 (history needs to remember how close that was, not simply that they got beaten by mighty China) and that was it for them.  As opposed to PyeongChang which came back after 2 narrow defeats and won.

Yes, the IOC desperately needs another confirmed bidder.  For better or worse, it's largely out of their control at this point, especially with a city like Calgary.  Only so much the IOC can do to try and nudge the odds in their favor.

[thatsnotmypuppy]

17 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

So you think the Winter Olympics would be away from Europe for nearly a generation?  Not to mention they'd return to the same city on the continent that they were last in?

This could very well be the case.  

However if Calgary falls over and g_d forbid Italy stay in will a Milano/Torino/Cortina Games satisfy those pearl clutchers demanding that the only way to reset the image of an out of control Games is to host in a "traditional European Winter Games power"...??

Edited July 16, 2018 by thatsnotmypuppy

[FYI]

^Exactly - & talk about the left-over 2026 cities that are still trying to figure out whether if it’s worth it or not - that fits Calgary to a tee. Sapporo’s ambivalence appears to be about something else. And then there’s the elephant in the room, SLC. Yeah, the USOC sent their letter in but for 2030. But that process isn’t suppose to start for another couple of years. So what’s the huge rush. And it’s not like the IOC rejected their post-dated letter, either.

[Olympianfan]

If Calgary votes NO and none of Europe stays if Sapporo stays for the 2026 winter bid race then it could be Sapporo Japan 2026.

The IOC Should do a double award with the 2030 and 2034 games in at the 2021 IOC Session with Almaty Kazakhstan in 2034 with the IOC not the USOC picking the American host city.

Imagine if the race between Denver, Salt Lake City, Anchorage, Lake Placid - Albury and Reno - Lake Tahoe it will be very good for the IOC, After that the IOC should head to the Southern Hemisphere.

So in that case 

2026 Sapporo Japan - 2030 USA - 2034 Almaty Kazakhstan - 2038 Santiago Chile - 2042 Christchurch - Queenstown New Zealand. 

Also it's funny to imagine how President Avery Brundage in the 1960s threaten to stop the Winter Olympic Games due to European countries pretty much always hosting them apart from the two times in 1932 and 1960 after Calgary lost the bidding race for the 1968 Winter Olympic Games now Europe does not seem to want to host the games anymore.  

[Quaker2001]

7 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

This could very well be the case.  

However if Calgary falls over and g_d forbid Italy stay in will a Milano/Torino?Cotina Games satisfy those pearl clutchers demanding that the only way to reset the image of an out of control Games is to host in a "traditional European Winter Games power"...??

Part of the problem is that they have to convince the citizens moreso than the bean counters.  We've seen the power they wield these days that they never did before.  Not sure what it's going to take to turn the tide.  But as the story goes, this isn't like the 70s.  These days, the IOC is the problem and not so much the host cities.  They're starting to get a clue that they need to help their own image and make hosting an Olympics seem more appealing.  Calgary would undoubtedly help, but it might also go to emphasize the point that a past host with the majority of their infrastructure already in place is the way to go.  Which could scare off other potential bidders who need to build.  And yes, far from unthinkable that they've lost Europe for awhile.  But it's next to impossible to figure who might be there in the future.  Either way, it all starts with the IOC acknowledging how dire the situation is and offering more than the lip service that Agenda 2020 claims to be about.

[Quaker2001]

25 minutes ago, Olympianfan said:

If Calgary votes NO and none of Europe stays if Sapporo stays for the 2026 winter bid race then it could be Sapporo Japan 2026.

The IOC Should do a double award with the 2030 and 2034 games in at the 2021 IOC Session with Almaty Kazakhstan in 2034 with the IOC not the USOC picking the American host city.

Imagine if the race between Denver, Salt Lake City, Anchorage, Lake Placid - Albury and Reno - Lake Tahoe it will be very good for the IOC, After that the IOC should head to the Southern Hemisphere.

So in that case 

2026 Sapporo Japan - 2030 USA - 2034 Almaty Kazakhstan - 2038 Santiago Chile - 2042 Christchurch - Queenstown New Zealand. 

Also it's funny to imagine how President Avery Brundage in the 1960s threaten to stop the Winter Olympic Games due to European countries pretty much always hosting them apart from the two times in 1932 and 1960 after Calgary lost the bidding race for the 1968 Winter Olympic Games now Europe does not seem to want to host the games anymore.  

Okay, let's pump the brakes a little here before you're throwing the likes of Lake Placid and Christrchuruch out there.

What's the point of doing a double award for 2030/2034?  We don't know what cities will be out there and I don't think it's a wise idea to let multiple cities go at it without the USOC's oversight.  Let them pick their best instead of the IOC choosing it for them.

After that, 2 straight Olympics in the southern hemisphere?  With the state of the Winter Olympics right now, not sure that's a viable solution.  If Chile or New Zealand can put together an appealing bid, then they can be considered.  Still don't think that's happening anytime soon and perhaps not at all in our lifetimes.  Yes, there is some irony in the situation that traditional Europe is rejecting the Winter Olympics in droves.  But it's anyone's best guess if that will continue for the next 2 decades or so.  I'm betting it won't.  All they need is 1 viable bidder.  Where that bidder will come from and when it might be there?.. who knows that one either.

[baron-pierreIV]

Where's "Tulsa" and his Annecy bid when you need them?? 

[FYI]

^France is pretty preoccupied with Paris 2024 ATM. And talking about 2034, I can then see France putting up Annecy once Paris 2024 is said & done (I know you’re being facetious, but I can also see that scenario if the French want to tackle the winter Games next & it’d be a comfortable ten years after Paris. And by that time, the IOC will also be in such desperation to to finally have another Western European Winter Olympics).

And if’s there’s going to be a winter double-allocation, it’s going to be now with 2026/2030 & not later with 2030/2034. The cards for that possibly happening are being played out now for the next decade, not two decades from now.