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16 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

Hear, Hear Rob!

I try to be moderate. I try to see the bright side, the glass half full. When the results and implications became clear, I tried not to spit the dummy, to lash out, to be a poor loser. I tried to accept the "majority" (yeah, right!) has spoken.

And I've watched many others - world leaders, liberal left leaders, celebrities, friends, acquaintances say, oh well, we have to accept it, see how it does and learn to work with him. I've seen leaders like Obama, like Turnbull here and others, who couldn't contain their disdain for Trump during the election, now say we should give him the benefit of the doubt. And then I've watched the protests breaking out across the US, and initially though, well, that's not really a good way to react. That's not going to win sympathies back.

But that's done nothing to contain the gloom, the horror, the sheer disgust at what I've seen happen the past week. And the past year. I don't think I've ever been so introspective, so questioning, of my core political beliefs. I've watched in growing dismay over the past 12 months as the liberal western values that I've put so much belief and faith in have just been manifestly failing to contain the boiling ugliness that we thought had, maybe not been eradicated, but at least tamed and consigned to wither away in its own irrelevant bile.

And then I've seen the signs of what Trump's win has unleashed. Notes from US students to muslim teachers that they should now go hang themselves with their burkas because there is no place them under the new president. Notes under card windshields of gay pastors telling them that they hope their new president obliterates their fag marriages now. Obnoxious preppies in bars chanting "grab their pussies" in their drunken celebrations. And then I've seen some leaders finally say what should be said in contrast to the mealy mouthed platitudes of the Obama, May and Turnbulls of the world. I've seen the likes of Merkel and Nicolas Sturgeon at least mark the lines of decency they say they will continue to stand for.

I'm through with acceptance. Of moderation. Of appeasement. I don't wish ill or bad times on the people of America and the western world over the next four years. I don't want to see our societies crumble. But as another member here, Seth, put it in his Facebook feed - I'm in the anger stage of grief now. I want to see the protests continue. I want to see the cities streets of America express the disgust and rejection of what has been foisted on them. I want to see the leaders of the world stand up for the values they say they believe in and tell the new President "No", there is just no way they can accommodate or accept or condone policies that are abhorrent to any decent person in the world. I want to see every ugly act Trump introduces or commits to challenged, fought against and resisted. I'm no communist, but I want to see the excesses of late stage world capitalism, the system that has brought us to this place and created the disaffected classes that trump has whipped up and used for his own ends, truly challenged. I want to see anger, agitation and resistance.

 I want to see western liberalism fight back, not just wither away to irrelevancy in an effort to be reasonable about the unreasonable.

 I need a bigger like button.

Edited by Rob.
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59 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

Hear, Hear Rob!

I try to be moderate. I try to see the bright side, the glass half full. When the results and implications became clear, I tried not to spit the dummy, to lash out, to be a poor loser. I tried to accept the "majority" (yeah, right!) has spoken.

And I've watched many others - world leaders, liberal left leaders, celebrities, friends, acquaintances say, oh well, we have to accept it, see how it does and learn to work with him. I've seen leaders like Obama, like Turnbull here and others, who couldn't contain their disdain for Trump during the election, now say we should give him the benefit of the doubt. And then I've watched the protests breaking out across the US, and initially though, well, that's not really a good way to react. That's not going to win sympathies back.

But that's done nothing to contain the gloom, the horror, the sheer disgust at what I've seen happen the past week. And the past year. I don't think I've ever been so introspective, so questioning, of my core political beliefs. I've watched in growing dismay over the past 12 months as the liberal western values that I've put so much belief and faith in have just been manifestly failing to contain the boiling ugliness that we thought had, maybe not been eradicated, but at least tamed and consigned to wither away in its own irrelevant bile.

And then I've seen the signs of what Trump's win has unleashed. Notes from US students to muslim teachers that they should now go hang themselves with their burkas because there is no place them under the new president. Notes under card windshields of gay pastors telling them that they hope their new president obliterates their fag marriages now. Obnoxious preppies in bars chanting "grab their pussies" in their drunken celebrations. And then I've seen some leaders finally say what should be said in contrast to the mealy mouthed platitudes of the Obama, May and Turnbulls of the world. I've seen the likes of Merkel and Nicolas Sturgeon at least mark the lines of decency they say they will continue to stand for.

I'm through with acceptance. Of moderation. Of appeasement. I don't wish ill or bad times on the people of America and the western world over the next four years. I don't want to see our societies crumble. But as another member here, Seth, put it in his Facebook feed - I'm in the anger stage of grief now. I want to see the protests continue. I want to see the cities streets of America express the disgust and rejection of what has been foisted on them. I want to see the leaders of the world stand up for the values they say they believe in and tell the new President "No", there is just no way they can accommodate or accept or condone policies that are abhorrent to any decent person in the world. I want to see every ugly act Trump introduces or commits to challenged, fought against and resisted. I'm no communist, but I want to see the excesses of late stage world capitalism, the system that has brought us to this place and created the disaffected classes that trump has whipped up and used for his own ends, truly challenged. I want to see anger, agitation and resistance.

 I want to see western liberalism fight back, not just wither away to irrelevancy in an effort to be reasonable about the unreasonable.

 
 

Hear, hear, Rols!! 

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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@Rob 

Good deep thoughtful insights from you and other level headed members here. I was hoping to see some real passion come out. But don't be hurting too much. 

Sometimes I keep forgetting I write from a free and easygoing life is great country (although last night's 7.5 shaker a reminder of an unstable one) that is protected by a moat.

Yes Trump is a buffoon but he did, finally, pull up the deep rotten underbelly of America. Hidden by media, especially companies owned by an expat Australian, Trump has exposed the worst.

But then so did Farage in UK Brexit.

It's difficult to comprehend the scale of deep seated animosity in "middle America" simmering  for decades. Even as a tourist I've never encountered anything serious apart from being told by a concerned well meaning local telling me not to stop in particular neighborhoods because "black crime" is high. 

For the likes of Baron who have long made a home there, the nerves must be awfully raw. 

This is NOT the America we wanted to see. This was old America surging up against something it detests...Freedom for Everyone who isn't a WASP Hetro.

This is a disease that is spreading through what we thought were Liberal growing countries and it looks like its unstoppable...

Every country has its sh!t stirrer...Sadly UK and USA, the mightiest of global nations have exposed theirs.

Protest loudly...and I mean loudly... But stay safe in doing so. Don't put yourself in harms way.

(By the way if you want to move to Canada, Australia or NZ do so, but you'll have to hurry, the queues are getting longer)

Blessings. :(

 

 

 

 

 

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Great posts from both Rob and Sir Rols. They both voiced my own thoughts much better than I could!

I really don't know what's going on with voters these days or why the opinion pollsters keep getting it so badly wrong. Why has the mood turned so ugly lately? I feel like I am out of step with so many people. For the first time ever, I am starting to feel marginalised. What do they see in the likes of Trump and Farage that I just can't? Is disaffection with the political establishment so profound that it justifies turning to the likes of them? Evidently it is for so many people. Are we about to revisit the politics of the 1930s when unscrupulous populist fringe politicians captured the attention of otherwise sane and rational people and promptly led them down the road to complete disaster? Please God no!!!

I cling to hope that 4 years from now I will be able to re-read these posts and smile at what will by then seem like an absurd over-reaction. I cling, I cling.............

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mainad said:

Great posts from both Rob and Sir Rols. They both voiced my own thoughts much better than I could!

I really don't know what's going on with voters these days or why the opinion pollsters keep getting it so badly wrong. Why has the mood turned so ugly lately? I feel like I am out of step with so many people. For the first time ever, I am starting to feel marginalised. What do they see in the likes of Trump and Farage that I just can't? Is disaffection with the political establishment so profound that it justifies turning to the likes of them?

Brexit wasn't a referendum on whether we liked Farage, even if it kind of seems that way now. I know a fair few decent people who voted for Brexit despite Farage, for reasons of sovereignty, worries about being tied to an EU with the Euro, who had no time for his immigration arguments or his rhetoric, and who would never vote UKIP.

It's definitely arguable these people should've been more aware of the effect of their vote, but that's something they'll have to look back on and decide themselves I guess.

Not sure how you can vote Trump despite Trump, on the other hand. So the two aren't directly comparable, in that sense.

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7 hours ago, Rob. said:

Brexit wasn't a referendum on whether we liked Farage, even if it kind of seems that way now. I know a fair few decent people who voted for Brexit despite Farage, for reasons of sovereignty, worries about being tied to an EU with the Euro, who had no time for his immigration arguments or his rhetoric, and who would never vote UKIP.

It's definitely arguable these people should've been more aware of the effect of their vote, but that's something they'll have to look back on and decide themselves I guess.

Not sure how you can vote Trump despite Trump, on the other hand. So the two aren't directly comparable, in that sense.

Not sure I can give anyone a pass for voting Brexit despite Farage. Surely, the fact that Farage was the leader of the Leave campaign  should have made them pause and reflect on whether they wished to throw in their lot with a cause for which he was chief spokesman and ringleader! Which politician has come out of it all looking like some sort of world statesman....Farage! Who is the one now cosying up to Trump and acting as some sort of unofficial go-between him and the British government....Farage! Who is the one likely to benefit most from these voters' short-sightedness....Farage!  Can we really separate the man from the cause? Shall we give US posters who voted for Trump a pass  because some of them may not have liked him but just didn't want to vote for Hillary? Does this exonerate them when all they've done essentially is to help to give unwelcome prominence to a guy like Farage and, in the case of Trump, actually hand him the reins of power?  Maybe I shouldn't push this analogy too far, but do Germans back in the 1930s get a pass  for voting for the Nazis despite disliking Hitler or helping him to power despite personal misgivings about him?

So I don't quite agree with you, Rob. Personally I'm not inclined to give people who voted Brexit a pass despite whatever feelings they may have had about Farage because their vote has nevetheless helped give him unwarranted influence and, as time progresses, may give him a whole heap more no matter what their intentions may have been. Ditto reluctant Trump voters, ditto reluctant Hitler voters. When I am considering what political options are on offer, the nature of the people representing said options is vitally important for me. I just wish it had been for more people too!

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There can be no pass for anyone voting for Trump (or not voting at all because they didn't like Hillary either). The vicious campaign (even if he might soften up in office, though I'm not convinced at all) should have put any sensible and intelligent person off. Seriously, there just cannot be any excuse (I'm also looking at you, Mr Kaepernick).

As for Brexit - for all the faults of the EU, also there having Farage as the lead figure in the fight against it should have really made the sensible and intelligent voters run away in a split second.

Anyone who still voted that way cannot have an excuse. And I as someone living in the city where Hitler started his rise to power have no second thoughts about seeing very scary parallels, just that this time the scapegoat aren't the Jews.

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If you had any false hopes he would lean to the center, it's time to abandon those, as he just designed Bannon, the chief editor of Breitbart, one of the most notorious xenophobic and anti-feminist online newspapers in America, as his counselor. 

Oh boy. These next two months are going to be even more dramatic than the whole Presidential Campaign. Get ready everyone.

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5 minutes ago, baron-pierreIV said:

In latest popular vote counts, Hillary is ahead by an est. 766,000 votes!!   How can the will of 766,000 people be ignored?  

Very easily, given the way the system works. However, it can also be respected by anybody who so chooses. Although the chance of any state's Electoral College members ignoring the will of their own popular vote majorities is slim, Trump is going to have "not really the people's choice at all" hanging over him throughout his presidency, and international relations are going to be particularly bruising.

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10 hours ago, Ikarus360 said:

If you had any false hopes he would lean to the center, it's time to abandon those, as he just designed Bannon, the chief editor of Breitbart, one of the most notorious xenophobic and anti-feminist online newspapers in America, as his counselor. 

White supremacist is the description I'm most encountering about him. 

Yeah, old Donald's just a laugh a day, eh?

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17 hours ago, Mainad said:

Not sure I can give anyone a pass for voting Brexit despite Farage. Surely, the fact that Farage was the leader of the Leave campaign  should have made them pause and reflect on whether they wished to throw in their lot with a cause for which he was chief spokesman and ringleader! Which politician has come out of it all looking like some sort of world statesman....Farage! Who is the one now cosying up to Trump and acting as some sort of unofficial go-between him and the British government....Farage! Who is the one likely to benefit most from these voters' short-sightedness....Farage!  Can we really separate the man from the cause? Shall we give US posters who voted for Trump a pass  because some of them may not have liked him but just didn't want to vote for Hillary? Does this exonerate them when all they've done essentially is to help to give unwelcome prominence to a guy like Farage and, in the case of Trump, actually hand him the reins of power?  Maybe I shouldn't push this analogy too far, but do Germans back in the 1930s get a pass  for voting for the Nazis despite disliking Hitler or helping him to power despite personal misgivings about him?

So I don't quite agree with you, Rob. Personally I'm not inclined to give people who voted Brexit a pass despite whatever feelings they may have had about Farage because their vote has nevetheless helped give him unwarranted influence and, as time progresses, may give him a whole heap more no matter what their intentions may have been. Ditto reluctant Trump voters, ditto reluctant Hitler voters. When I am considering what political options are on offer, the nature of the people representing said options is vitally important for me. I just wish it had been for more people too!

Well, Farage wasn't leader of the LEAVE campaign; they wanted nothing to do with him. He was the leader of his own unofficial campaign which argued for different priorities (this is one reason why the referendum aftermath is such a huge clusterf*ck - nobody knows what people actually voted for!!).

I'm absolutely not talking about giving anyone a free pass for voting Brexit either (although I'm coming around to the point of view that this was never a decision that should've gone to referendum given how little many seem to understand about it (<<watch this!!) and how many lies were told in getting a LEAVE victory).

But I will believe people who say they voted for Brexit despite Farage, because the fact is the Brexit vote is something that'll affect us for decades, and Farage is officially at least a retired MEP. You can be in favour of something without having to like other people who are. Anyway, even without anecdotal evidence (e.g. members of my own family), it's obvious. UKIP polls at around 8%, so it's clear a lot of people who voted LEAVE did so despite him.

I really don't think you can vote Trump despite Trump in the same way, however. I'm not sure your example of disliking Hilary really compares.

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Here's an interesting article on what is happening to the views of young white males over the last decade and a half...it makes for chillingly familiar reading...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/15/alt-right-manosphere-mainstream-politics-breitbart

...and it's happening pretty much in those countries that have been transformed by the Intellectual Social agenda that began after Nixon.

To me, the boil over point that really swung voters Trump's way was the silly and petulant reaction over Transgender community bathrooms in schools...It was a push to far...

 

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6 hours ago, Rob. said:

Well, Farage wasn't leader of the LEAVE campaign; they wanted nothing to do with him. He was the leader of his own unofficial campaign which argued for different priorities (this is one reason why the referendum aftermath is such a huge clusterf*ck - nobody knows what people actually voted for!!).

I'm absolutely not talking about giving anyone a free pass for voting Brexit either (although I'm coming around to the point of view that this was never a decision that should've gone to referendum given how little many seem to understand about it (<<watch this!!) and how many lies were told in getting a LEAVE victory).

But I will believe people who say they voted for Brexit despite Farage, because the fact is the Brexit vote is something that'll affect us for decades, and Farage is officially at least a retired MEP. You can be in favour of something without having to like other people who are. Anyway, even without anecdotal evidence (e.g. members of my own family), it's obvious. UKIP polls at around 8%, so it's clear a lot of people who voted LEAVE did so despite him.

I really don't think you can vote Trump despite Trump in the same way, however. I'm not sure your example of disliking Hilary really compares.

The trouble is that Farage was the figure most associated with the Leave Campaign so, officially or not, that's the impression he gave and that's the impression the media tended to give him and the impression most people had of him.  He was the rock-solid centre of opposition to the EU right the way through. His position as UKIP leader confirmed this. I don't think anyone took 'fly-by-night, chop-and-change according to his mood-Boris'  anywhere near as seriously. I think many people were evidently influenced by UKIP's views whether they normally voted for them or not. It's called 'Fellow Traveller' syndrome. I'm convinced that many people who may have been unsure which way to vote were convinced by him and the blatant lies he told to make his position seem more reasonable and acceptable to them than it actually was. I sincerely doubt Brexit would have won if it hadn't been for him and the open backing he got from much of the gutter press. We pro-EU voters seriously underestimated the influence he brought to bear just as many US voters seriously underestimated the influence Trump was having on otherwise sane and reasonable people. We are all going to have to live with the consequences of other people's short-sightedness and readiness to get into bed with some very dubious people.

Essentially, I cling to my point that people like Farage should have been a grave warning to people tempted to vote for Brexit. It should have made them re-think just who they were willing to align their views with. Ditto the anti-Hillary voters in the US who opted to vote for Trump rather than see Hillary get elected. People need to learn the lesson that , to contradict a well-known phrase,  "the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend". Let's all hope and pray that the lesson will  not prove too costly!

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, baron-pierreIV said:

In latest popular vote counts, Hillary is ahead by an est. 766,000 votes!!   How can the will of 766,000 people be ignored?  

 

9 hours ago, JMarkSnow2012 said:

Up to almost 800,000 on CNN now

Well, now they're saying that three million votes were from "illegal aliens". So Hillary probably "didn't win the PV, either". I guess the conspiracy theories never cease! :rolleyes:

http://www.infowars.com/report-three-million-votes-in-presidential-election-cast-by-illegal-aliens/

Maybe it's false. Afterall, the 15,000 votes that Harambe got were supposedly false, too! 

 

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14 hours ago, FYI said:

 

Well, now they're saying that three million votes were from "illegal aliens". So Hillary probably "didn't win the PV, either". I guess the conspiracy theories never cease! :rolleyes:

http://www.infowars.com/report-three-million-votes-in-presidential-election-cast-by-illegal-aliens/

Maybe it's false. Afterall, the 15,000 votes that Harambe got were supposedly false, too! 

 

Yeah, I saw that.

Does anybody know if the firmly Republican Gregg Philips who's behind votefraud.org (and other online purveyors of similar messages) is the same Gregg Philips who was behind Newt Gingrich's SuperPaC " Winning Our Future " in 2012?

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My overall impression of Farage during  the EURef was that he was a side show - it was BoJo who was the Leave leader in the minds of the public... and he's now the foreign sec (gulp). I voted remain with knobs on, but even I could see the rationale for some of the concerns expressed about the dysfunctional state of the EU and its undemocratic approach to member states. The so-called election of EU Commission president Junker, dressed up by Europhiles as a wonderful exercise in democracy was a big wake up call for many. I thought that these concerns were overstated at the time - but I can see how the dysfunctional and delusional way it was carried out under the noses of the public unsettled people in the context of a general malaise and lack of trust.

With Trump, its not the man himself that is the main worry - its the way people were willing to look past blatant lies and half truths - this suggests that there is a real need to examine how our democracy works in the digital age and to figure out ways to make sure the echo chamber of social media is held to a certain standard.

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15 hours ago, Rob. said:

Trump advocating safe spaces....

#PresidentSnowflake

 

The Hairpiece just doesn't get it; and so odd considering that he's a New Yorker.  Does he really think that every creative person, now every opportunity that presents itself, that their non-fans will just roll over and die just because they won a crooked election?  He should loosen that hairpiece a little.  

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On 16/11/2016 at 2:01 PM, JMarkSnow2012 said:

Does anybody know if the firmly Republican Gregg Philips who's behind votefraud.org (and other online purveyors of similar messages) is the same Gregg Philips who was behind Newt Gingrich's SuperPaC " Winning Our Future " in 2012?

The answer turns out (not very surprisiingly) to be Yes. Although LinkedIn doesn't mention votefraud.org specifically, it does link the SuperPAC Gregg to:

JumpVote, VotersTrust and True the Vote

That plus more stuff about the "3 million" allegation on Politifact's "Punditfact":

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/nov/18/blog-posting/no-3-million-undocumented-immigrants-did-not-vote-/

 

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This guy will either only last one presidential term or not even complete his term unless he becomes full Banana Republic mode and amends the constitution to clinge into power as much as he can (and he will have it easier now that he has all of the Senate with him). The worst thing is that not only America but the entire world will have to deal with his shenanigans. 

Well, at least Germans must be happy because America will never get to make fun of them. Again. 

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