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17 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

Like I said, "ever" is a long time.  Would guess it'll take a long time and a new generation that has little memory of these Olympics to whet their appetite again.  Little different though than Canada since there were different cities involved.  We'll see what happens with Sapporo and how that will be received.  But in terms of a Summer Olympics, I can't see another city in Japan bidding, so I think the lingering memories and the numbers will be a turn-off for awhile to come

I think many misunderstand me around here. I am not part of the NOlympics crowd per se, but more of games being hosted responsibly. All the time we hear of plans like Agenda 2020 and yet costs still spiral out of control. When you have public referenda and taxpayers expressing NO to the IOC, it shows the extremely bad reputation the IOC has.

People may be enthusiastic somewhat now around the world, but a day after the closing ceremony and back to reality it will be.
 

Montreal 1976 even to this day is a bitter event for those living in Montreal. People there definitely don’t look back at it with positive memories unlike with Vancouver’s winter games for example. 
 

Does anyone know why Calgary entertained a 1988 bid? I can easily understand Toronto’s 96 and 08 bids, as a recent trend of mostly great summer games happened starting with Los Angeles. After Athens and Sochi, it’s easily understandable why Toronto didn’t want to bid for an Olympics in the midst of Pan Am fever. (Which even I admit were run very well)

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1 hour ago, MisterSG1 said:

I think many misunderstand me around here. I am not part of the NOlympics crowd per se, but more of games being hosted responsibly. All the time we hear of plans like Agenda 2020 and yet costs still spiral out of control. When you have public referenda and taxpayers expressing NO to the IOC, it shows the extremely bad reputation the IOC has.

That’s more than fair. I can’t disagree with that.

Only thing I’d add is that, to be fair, Agenda 2020 hasn’t really been tested by a “live” games yet. But the IOC has locked in three incoming summer hosts who all to varying degrees pitched their plans on sustainability and responsibility. Now, you can’t predict what will happen - 18 months ago Tokyo was looking rosy until the mother of all unforeseen circumstances turned everything upside down - but there’s good reasons to be optimistic for the summer games going forward.

It’s winter IMO where the IOC has its work cut out. Beijing’s shaping up as a challenge and I still think that snubbing Sweden for 2026 was a missed opportunity to make an Agenda 2020 statement.  And the ones being most heavily touted as in the frame for 2030 - SLC and Vancouver - don’t give any message beyond “recent host who can be slotted in easily“. Sapporo is problematic for various reasons mentioned at large here on the board. The IOC needs to find and nurture a good, responsible, probably regional WOG host to demonstrate Agenda 2020 and open up its opportunities for the future.

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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

It’s winter IMO where the IOC has its work cut out. Beijing’s shaping up as a challenge and I still think that snubbing Sweden for 2026 was a missed opportunity to make an Agenda 2020 statement.  And the ones being most heavily touted as in the frame for 2030 - SLC and Vancouver - don’t give any message beyond “recent host who can be slotted in easily“. Sapporo is problematic for various reasons mentioned at large here on the board. The IOC needs to find and nurture a good, responsible, probably regional WOG host to demonstrate Agenda 2020 and open up its opportunities for the future.

Winter games are tricky because you need the actual geography to do it. Which of course is why the names of most Winter Olympics hosts prior to 1998 were in places the average person hasn’t even heard of. In recent trends, where Winter games have “anchors” in more well known, or shall we say “global” cities, a bid has to be regional. Which of course if it were possible to reactivate Lake Placid, these days such a games would have to be anchored by Montreal or NYC for example. (the former never happening because of the complicated quagmire of the Canada-US border)

Isn’t Milan’s games more “regional” then the proposed bid in Stockholm? Was the failure of the Stockholm bid the result of having events to take place in Latvia? Schengen (theoretically) makes the situation light years better than having events across the Canada-US border, but seeing the current nature of the Schengen Agreement, which COVID made much worse, it’s unclear if the Schengen Agreement will ever return to the way it was.

So I’m not sure if I remember this part, does Agenda 2020 explicitly say that Olympics ought to be more regional? Wouldn’t a more concentrated cluster be less wasteful? That’s how I see it anyways.

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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

It’s winter IMO where the IOC has its work cut out. Beijing’s shaping up as a challenge and I still think that snubbing Sweden for 2026 was a missed opportunity to make an Agenda 2020 statement.  And the ones being most heavily touted as in the frame for 2030 - SLC and Vancouver - don’t give any message beyond “recent host who can be slotted in easily“. 

Was it really a case of "snubbing" Sweden, though. Or more of a case that the IOC was simply scared of a shaky Sweden. I'd say it was more the latter. Agenda 2020 aside for a moment, but this is the same Sweden that pulled out mid-race from 2022, & the same one that decided to pass on 2018 before that. Not to mention, that their 2004 Summer bid was also met with anything but enthusiasm in Sweden in 1997. So is it any wonder if the IOC had any doubts in the Swedes. The great distance between Are & Stockholm was also problematic, to say the least. 

Some here like to make the case that if another double-allocation was to take place, that it'd have to be with two cities that'd actually "make sense" to do so. Milan 2026 & Stockholm 2030, or vice-versa, certainly would've made sense back in 2019, when the 2026 vote took place. Two traditional, winter-sport locations "locked-in" back-to-back. Certainly would've taken care of the winter side of problems that the IOC is dealing with now. But at this juncture, they have to worry about finding a 2030 host during a pandemic, where no one else, besides SLC & maybe Vancouver wants.

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And on top of all the misery, the IOC is now deeply in hot water thanks to Lukashenko, still Belarus dictator, former NOC President, father of current NOC President and recipient of a Coubertin medal (or whatever the IOC calls its honour awards) from the hands of Thomas Bach himself.

Belarus wanted to basically kidnap its own sprinter Timanovskaya after she had criticised officials, and she managed to seek help of airport police. Latest is she is in the Polish embassy and asylum plans are made. Belarus (and Russian) media say she was removed from competition by the team because she was “emotionally unstable”. The IOC at least seems to support her and watches this case closely.

That’s what you get when you’re friends with dictators who like sports (and organise e.g. European Games for you).

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9 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

That’s more than fair. I can’t disagree with that.

Only thing I’d add is that, to be fair, Agenda 2020 hasn’t really been tested by a “live” games yet. But the IOC has locked in three incoming summer hosts who all to varying degrees pitched their plans on sustainability and responsibility. Now, you can’t predict what will happen - 18 months ago Tokyo was looking rosy until the mother of all unforeseen circumstances turned everything upside down - but there’s good reasons to be optimistic for the summer games going forward.

It’s winter IMO where the IOC has its work cut out. Beijing’s shaping up as a challenge and I still think that snubbing Sweden for 2026 was a missed opportunity to make an Agenda 2020 statement.  And the ones being most heavily touted as in the frame for 2030 - SLC and Vancouver - don’t give any message beyond “recent host who can be slotted in easily“. Sapporo is problematic for various reasons mentioned at large here on the board. The IOC needs to find and nurture a good, responsible, probably regional WOG host to demonstrate Agenda 2020 and open up its opportunities for the future.

I wish New Zealand would step up to the plate here. If the IOC could be persuaded on dates (could they in this new era?) an NZ regional Winter Olympics could be exceptional (Indoor venues in Christchurch and Auckland and mountain venues in Queenstown). 

Wish they'd have a crack at 2034 - would complement Brisbane 2032 beautifully.

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1 hour ago, Australian Kiwi said:

I wish New Zealand would step up to the plate here. If the IOC could be persuaded on dates (could they in this new era?) an NZ regional Winter Olympics could be exceptional (Indoor venues in Christchurch and Auckland and mountain venues in Queenstown). 

Wish they'd have a crack at 2034 - would complement Brisbane 2032 beautifully.

It's been discussed many times here before.. holding a Winter Olympics during the Northern hemisphere's summer is a non-starter for a number of reasons that cannot be overcome.  I don't doubt that New Zealand could put on a good show, but everyone involved - sports federations, television concerns, among others - would never be accepting of that calendar.  Let alone the clash it would create with the World Cup.

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11 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

Does anyone know why Calgary entertained a 1988 bid? I can easily understand Toronto’s 96 and 08 bids, as a recent trend of mostly great summer games happened starting with Los Angeles. After Athens and Sochi, it’s easily understandable why Toronto didn’t want to bid for an Olympics in the midst of Pan Am fever. (Which even I admit were run very well)

Calgary had been pursuing an Olympics for decades.  1988 wasn't their first shot.  They bid for 1964 and 1968 (after Montreal had bid for the 1956 Olympics), then Banff was the official bid city for 1972.  Vancouver-Garibaldi went for 1976 and was ready to step in when Denver threw in the towel.  There's some good background here how it all came to be, including how Calgary beat out Vancouver to beat the bid city.  And yes, a lot of this happened in the aftermath of Montreal `76... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Winter_Olympics#Host_city_selection

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11 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

I think many misunderstand me around here. I am not part of the NOlympics crowd per se, but more of games being hosted responsibly. All the time we hear of plans like Agenda 2020 and yet costs still spiral out of control. When you have public referenda and taxpayers expressing NO to the IOC, it shows the extremely bad reputation the IOC has.

People may be enthusiastic somewhat now around the world, but a day after the closing ceremony and back to reality it will be.

Understand though that we've been having these discussions for years here.  We're not unaware of the issues facing the IOC and the anti-Olympic backlash happening all over the world, much of which is justified.  So when you come into the conversation and think we're all "rah rah Olympics" and don't care about those issues, you have a wrong impression of the crowd here.

9 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

Isn’t Milan’s games more “regional” then the proposed bid in Stockholm? Was the failure of the Stockholm bid the result of having events to take place in Latvia? Schengen (theoretically) makes the situation light years better than having events across the Canada-US border, but seeing the current nature of the Schengen Agreement, which COVID made much worse, it’s unclear if the Schengen Agreement will ever return to the way it was.

So I’m not sure if I remember this part, does Agenda 2020 explicitly say that Olympics ought to be more regional? Wouldn’t a more concentrated cluster be less wasteful? That’s how I see it anyways.

The main thing about Agenda 2020 is that it's less about the IOC telling prospective bid cities what they should do and more about cities telling the IOC what's more responsible and sustainable for them.  It varies from city to city.  There's no template to what makes a city's bid more Agenda 2020 or less.

As FYI noted, Milan-Cortina won over Stockholm because Italy had support where Sweden did not.  Had nothing to do with using another country.  Italy proposed the bid they did in line with Agenda 2020, more because it was better for them than better for the IOC.  That's what we're going to see more of in the future.  The wild card is how the IOC interacts with cities, but I have a feeling that will be the key.  For a city to step up and say "this works for us" rather than the old formula of "let us wine and dine you with only the best we have to offer"

And obviously this applies even more for Winter bids.  Which is why another Salt Lake bid and a Vancouver redux are potentially in the cards.  Not because they're safe but because they're the most easily sustainable

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I think most of us have been around long enough that negative Olympic pieces are par for the course. After watching the crowds that were able to gather at open events I think they would have had great ticket sales if only for residents.  One should only be bothered if there are no protests about an Olympics. 

I believe  that in some ways the Olympics do bring out a certain amount of nationalism and it not a bad thing, but in the end most spectators want moments that will make them proud of the human spirit.

Personally, I  think Biles did just the opposite of Kerri Strug. Injury is injury? Why should I give more sympathy to mental than physical? She had to know she was having problems before she came to Tokyo. She should have given her place to someone else to have the experience or compete.

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7 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

It's been discussed many times here before.. holding a Winter Olympics during the Northern hemisphere's summer is a non-starter for a number of reasons that cannot be overcome.  I don't doubt that New Zealand could put on a good show, but everyone involved - sports federations, television concerns, among others - would never be accepting of that calendar.  Let alone the clash it would create with the World Cup.

The answer would seem to be holding a Winter Olympics somewhere like South Georgia, or even Antarctica

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Well, from the COVID monster standpoint, halfway through this thing, it has not been anywhere near as bad as it could have been.  We aren't done yet, but if trajectory holds, Tokyo will have done much better than expected keeping COVID from interfering with the Olympics.  Gladly will eat my crow there, I thought we would absolutely see its presence rear its head to a much higher degree than it has thus far.

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8 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

It's been discussed many times here before.. holding a Winter Olympics during the Northern hemisphere's summer is a non-starter for a number of reasons that cannot be overcome.  I don't doubt that New Zealand could put on a good show, but everyone involved - sports federations, television concerns, among others - would never be accepting of that calendar.  Let alone the clash it would create with the World Cup.

Would there be a clash if the games were held in late August-September? The only ever Winter Pan American Games for example happened in September in Argentina in 1990.

Doesn't FIS hold its traditional alpine events in the southern hemisphere in August?

TV concerns, if we are going into September, there would be upsets with NFL and NBC. But as it stands, NBC only covers one NFL game per week (usually), the Sunday Night Football broadcast of course. The clash between the 2022 World Cup and FOX's football coverage will occur next year and that doesn't really seem to be an issue. So I do think saying TV concerns is merely a cop out.

I think the southern hemisphere Olympics, be it in South America or Oceania would be a hit mainly because of the unusual curiosity it would be to most people.

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A WOGs happening outside of February is NEVER going to happen.  (1) It will throw off the entire sports calendar -- not only for Winter sports; but will affect the other non-winter sports as well.  (2)  The WOGs' lifeline are the advertisers who buy time on TV for their winter-related products and services.  There is this mass of northern hemisphere economies (No America, Europe, East Asia) that a southern hemisphere in Aug-September simply CANNOT match. 

Why would the cold and flu medicine companies of the north buy airtime in July and August???  :blink:  Extrapolate that to a myriad other winter-related products -- and you will understand why a Winter Games outside of the February-March slot will NEVER be feasible.  

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8 hours ago, AmaniS said:

Personally, I  think Biles did just the opposite of Kerri Strug. Injury is injury? Why should I give more sympathy to mental than physical? She had to know she was having problems before she came to Tokyo. She should have given her place to someone else to have the experience or compete.

Biles was good enough to qualify for all 4 individual event finals.  That's how much better she is than anyone else out there that she wasn't right and still put up the highest score in qualifying.  Until she had the issue with the vault in the team final, we didn't truly know what was going on with her.  So to say "she should have not competed" is absurd Monday morning quarterbacking.

And if we're going to make a comparison to Strug.. she asked Bela Karolyi if they needed her to attempt the 2nd vault to win the gold.  The answer was no, they did not (only a 9.9 from Russia could have beaten Strug's first score and that would have been higher than literally any other routine the entire Olympics.  There's the other aspect that she wanted to get the last spot for the all-around, which she did.  But obviously then couldn't complete.

They're different scenarios.  Empathize with Strug because she was forced to compete when she probably shouldn't have.  Empathize with Biles because mental health is a bigger deal than we ever give it credit for and she her it in her to acknowledge that rather than risking her health and safety.

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1 hour ago, iceman530 said:

Well, from the COVID monster standpoint, halfway through this thing, it has not been anywhere near as bad as it could have been.  We aren't done yet, but if trajectory holds, Tokyo will have done much better than expected keeping COVID from interfering with the Olympics.  Gladly will eat my crow there, I thought we would absolutely see its presence rear its head to a much higher degree than it has thus far.

Here's the issue, though.  COVID is surging throughout Tokyo.  And the test positivity rate is increasing.  So the question at this point is not whether or not the Olympics could be held safely.  Clearly they can.  The question is did the Olympics worsen the pandemic, if nothing else for taking resources after from prevention measures that could have been allocated elsewhere.  That's the narrative we're likely to hear after the fact and I don't think it's that far off-base

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51 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

Here's the issue, though.  COVID is surging throughout Tokyo.  And the test positivity rate is increasing.  So the question at this point is not whether or not the Olympics could be held safely.  Clearly they can.  The question is did the Olympics worsen the pandemic, if nothing else for taking resources after from prevention measures that could have been allocated elsewhere.  That's the narrative we're likely to hear after the fact and I don't think it's that far off-base

 

completely agree, that is a very valid take.  Tokyo and the IOC are less then a week away from breathing a collective sigh of relief it went off reasonably okay. 

Now we see if the IOC makes a flex and awards winter games to Sapporo 2030 :D .  No bids.  No strings attached.  Handshake deal that is painless and at the same time appealing enough to not pass up from Japan's point of view.  That would be kinda a "sorry" and a "thanks" gesture all at the same time from the IOC to Japan.  I know odds are small but......heres hoping, I really want a Sapporo games thats probably not gonna happen.  

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3 hours ago, iceman530 said:

Well, from the COVID monster standpoint, halfway through this thing, it has not been anywhere near as bad as it could have been.  We aren't done yet, but if trajectory holds, Tokyo will have done much better than expected keeping COVID from interfering with the Olympics.  Gladly will eat my crow there, I thought we would absolutely see its presence rear its head to a much higher degree than it has thus far.

Remember two years ago when all we had to worry about with these Olympics was with Japan's searing heat? Oh, how trivial that was in hindsight Corona comparison.

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2 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

The clash between the 2022 World Cup and FOX's football coverage will occur next year and that doesn't really seem to be an issue. So I do think saying TV concerns is merely a cop out.

I've been thinking about that as of late myself. Not so much with the Winter Olympics, but the Summer Olympics. The IOC has specifically narrowed down the window of when a host city can host the summer Games - July 15th-Aug 31st. So much is made of that, the IOC can't deviate from this window cause of said TV contract negotiations. But if FIFA is now going to have a World Cup in Nov/Dec, why can't the IOC do the same in the future.

Case in point, Tokyo's unbearable summer heat warranted another October hosting like it was in 1964. Albeit though, the 2022 WC was moved from the summer months after Qatar was awarded that tournament. Still, this should be a test of how well the WC will do against other said American sport events vying for advertisement attention at the same time.

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If New Zealand and other southern countries could host a wintergames in august/september. Why don´t the winter seasen start with world cups in Biathlon, alpine competitions etc etc in those countries and expand the season. The wintersports season are generally short. So why not expand the world cup season... If a succes, perhaps in time an early winter games could happen. But get big world cup events in those time slots at first I think... 

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It’s intriguing to think what might have happened had NZ thrown its hat in for the dire 2022 race. I still doubt they would have got it, but it would have put the notion to the test at least. It may have been their ever-so-slightest chance -I doubt now they‘’S ever be able to receive the invite to move on to “preferred candidate” stage now.

As for Qatar - well, that was the other sh!tty decision for 2022. It won on one of the dodgiest votes imaginable, and then FIFA was left to clean up the mess of their own making. Qatar’s vague promises of air-conditioned stadiums turned out to be so-much bullish!t and FIFA was forced to change the dates to make it work. NOBODY, bar maybe the Qatari royal family and a few FIFA executive committee members with bigger bank balances, were happy with the shift.

I won’t dispute that the WC is also a big deal in the States (I was in the US for the last one), but I doubt the US TV rights holders hold anything near as much sway as NBC has over the Olympics. It’ll also be interesting to see when push-comes-to-shove whether the round ball or the pigskin holds the most viewers loyalties in the US next year (though I’d guess the time zones of matches probably will avoid many, if any, direct match clashes).

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5 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

Would there be a clash if the games were held in late August-September? The only ever Winter Pan American Games for example happened in September in Argentina in 1990.

Doesn't FIS hold its traditional alpine events in the southern hemisphere in August?

TV concerns, if we are going into September, there would be upsets with NFL and NBC. But as it stands, NBC only covers one NFL game per week (usually), the Sunday Night Football broadcast of course. The clash between the 2022 World Cup and FOX's football coverage will occur next year and that doesn't really seem to be an issue. So I do think saying TV concerns is merely a cop out.

I think the southern hemisphere Olympics, be it in South America or Oceania would be a hit mainly because of the unusual curiosity it would be to most people.

Curiosity generally doesn't bring viewers to their TV sets.  Are people really going to gravitate towards winter sports in the middle of July when the weather is good?  I doubt it.  And yes, FIS does hold some events in June/July/August, but they rarely get top athletes to participate.  A lot of them will train in the southern hemisphere, but competing is a different story.  But the problem - and this goes to Hans' point - what happens to the calendar?  Throws off the entire year to have the premier event of all the winter sports in August as opposed to its usually spot in February in the middle of the world cup seasons.  It's not like they can extend that out through the summer.  So as much as you say it might be interesting, all of the sports federations would never go for it?  Would a southern hemisphere country really want to invest in building a sliding track or a ski resort capable of host world class competition?

As for the TV coverage.. NBC has the NFL once a week, but they also have Notre Dame as well.  They have golf running into September.  The World Cup issue with Fox is a little different because all of the games in Qatar will be going on in the mornings and early afternoon.  That's going to be a problem for them.  On the Sunday of the final, what do you think is going to be on Fox.. NFL or World Cup?  I think we both know the answer to that.  And again, it's not just TV concerns, but all of the sports federations and their calendars as well

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2 hours ago, FYI said:

I've been thinking about that as of late myself. Not so much with the Winter Olympics, but the Summer Olympics. The IOC has specifically narrowed down the window of when a host city can host the summer Games - July 15th-Aug 31st. So much is made of that, the IOC can't deviate from this window cause of said TV contract negotiations. But if FIFA is now going to have a World Cup in Nov/Dec, why can't the IOC do the same in the future.

Case in point, Tokyo's unbearable summer heat warranted another October hosting like it was in 1964. Albeit though, the 2022 WC was moved from the summer months after Qatar was awarded that tournament. Still, this should be a test of how well the WC will do against other said American sport events vying for advertisement attention at the same time.

Look at the circumstances of 2022 with the World Cup.  They bid for a World Cup in the usual summer window with the promise of air conditioned stadiums.  Then it was "psyche, just kidding, yea we need to do this later in the year."  And Fox was ready to sue FIFA as a result, so FIFA basically just handed them the rights to 2026 to prevent a fight.  In hindsight, that's a big oops.  Imagine how much those rights might have gone for in open bidding once the the United States/Canada/Mexico were announced as hosts.

Cities could bid outside the usual window if they wanted.  Doha offered up an October bid.  But the IOC told them "DOn't.. HA!"  We know Australia wrestled with that, whether to bid with Brisbane or with Melbourne.  The calendar won out there.  It's possible in the new city selection process, the timing may be negotiable.  But there's still a preference on the part of a lot of people to stick to that window, for reasons that go beyond TV negotiations.

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