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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

Necessary? Maybe not, but then again there’s a good argument to be made that entertainment, diversion, inspiration, pride and such are also vital to our holistic well-being. It’s intangible, but not trivial.

Are elite athletes over-valued? Their material wealth and market value is only as much as we, the great masses, the working people, allow them to be. Their worth to their clubs, their teams and their sponsors comes down directly to how many kids want to put their posters on their walls; how many shift workers want to wind down by switching on their TVs to watch them; how many wage earners want to spend part of their earnings on tickets to see them in action on the field, pitch or arena; how many fans will click an internet link to read about them or like an instagram post; how many consumers want to buy the same sports shoes, watches, fragrances etc that their idols use. In other words, WE ultimately pay their wages and determine their worth, and for every cent they make they’re also propping up industries employing millions of people whose livelihoods depend on people striving to be “the best” and by doing so engaging with the the great masses. The market decides their worth, and we - everyone from essential workers and struggling casual shift employees to investment traders and the comfortable middle classes - are the market.

Finally, mental health is NOT contingent on material wealth or lack there of. And while elite athletes may well reap rewards out of most people’s imaginings, they also face unique pressures that WE place on them and which are beyond most people’s comprehension. 

Postscript - just as I posted this, myself and my partner - a frontline nurse working at the coalface of the pandemic - were up and cheering with joy to see an Australian just win a gold medal in the swimming pool. What’s the worth of raising the spirits and putting a smile on an essential workers face?

I don’t fall into the nationalism trap myself, I watched Olympics moreso for the competition. The online streams that CBC provides show a neutral approach to the direct OBS broadcasts. As in we actually see every medal ceremony in its entirety and not what CBC wants us to see. (as in only hearing a national anthem if it’s O Canada)

Just like earlier this evening there was a nice competitive race in the Relay Triathlon. The Canadians finished in 15th but I more or less wanted to see a good event.

 

As for pro sports, fans pay the salaries but it seems like the players and owners forget that. We go through this all the time when these leagues have their incredibly selfish strikes/lockouts and when the stoppage ends, the fans simply re-enter the arenas and stadiums like lemmings, ready to spend their money. If people had brains and actually stopped watching, these out of reality athletes would realize who ultimately pays their salary. The real losers to work stoppages in sports are restaurants and bars who show the games, but again no one cares about them.

Lets change things around, would you feel sorry for billionaires having mental health issues, heck no, I’d be gladly happy if that were the case.

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7 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Lets change things around, would you feel sorry for billionaires having mental health issues, heck no, I’d be gladly happy if that were the case.

So, to you, compassion is contingent upon material wealth. Indeed, you feel the right to take joy, be “gladly happy” if someone materially better off than you were suffering from mental demons. That’s pretty twisted.

How about considering that such a case would show that wealth is no shield against mental illness, that rather mental health is a great leveller that can afflict both rich and poor.

20 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

I don’t fall into the nationalism trap myself, I watched Olympics moreso for the competition. The online streams that CBC provides show a neutral approach to the direct OBS broadcasts. As in we actually see every medal ceremony in its entirety and not what CBC wants us to see. (as in only hearing a national anthem if it’s O Canada)

Who said fandom is contingent upon nationalism? You don’t have to be Portuguese to have a Christian Ronaldo poster on your wall, plenty of Australians admire Michael Phelps, Simone Biles has inevitably inspired young gymnasts outside the US, and Naomi Osaka has no lack of tennis fans outside Japan. Indeed, it’s the fact that their popularity transcends national boundaries that make them such valuable commodities.

28 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

As for pro sports, fans pay the salaries but it seems like the players and owners forget that. We go through this all the time when these leagues have their incredibly selfish strikes/lockouts and when the stoppage ends, the fans simply re-enter the arenas and stadiums like lemmings, ready to spend their money. If people had brains and actually stopped watching, these out of reality athletes would realize who ultimately pays their salary. The real losers to work stoppages in sports are restaurants and bars who show the games, but again no one cares about them.

Yet people DO continue to follow sports. To them they feel they get value spending money to watch or support their teams.  You yourself have mentioned your support for various teams. 

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33 minutes ago, AustralianFan said:

From ‘Lay-down Sally’ to Biles: how our views of athletes’ mental health have changed
 

Let us remember that Simone probably quit because her team and herself would not be hearing The Star Spangled Banner in that arena:

She may have been going through a rough patch but whatever happened to the old saying which is true about life “winners never quit and quitters never win”

Instead in Orwellian fashion, the media is praising the exact opposite effect. You know as in “war is peace” and “ignorance is strength”. I guess then that “quitting is bravery”.

Many runners in say a track race know that they made a crucial mistake that will not allow them to win. As in missing a hurdle and taking a tumble, but in nearly all cases, they get back up and finish the race and audiences appreciate that.

Instead, Simone quitting is reminiscent of how Michael Johnson quit in that infamous 150m race at Toronto’s Skydome when he knew he couldn’t beat Donovan Bailey.

 

As for you in Australia, where would society be if quitting was deemed acceptable. I’m sure the veterans you acknowledge on ANZAC Day went through a heck of a lot worse, and they never ever quit. They kept going, and god knows what could have happened if they simply surrendered because they were having “demons”. I’m sure those that did die in the many wars would be spinning in their graves about this attitude.

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1 hour ago, Sir Rols said:

So, to you, compassion is contingent upon material wealth. Indeed, you feel the right to take joy, be “gladly happy” if someone materially better off than you were suffering from mental demons. That’s pretty twisted.

How about considering that such a case would show that wealth is no shield against mental illness, that rather mental health is a great leveller that can afflict both rich and poor.

Who said fandom is contingent upon nationalism? You don’t have to be Portuguese to have a Christian Ronaldo poster on your wall, plenty of Australians admire Michael Phelps, Simone Biles has inevitably inspired young gymnasts outside the US, and Naomi Osaka has no lack of tennis fans outside Japan. Indeed, it’s the fact that their popularity transcends national boundaries that make them such valuable commodities.

Yet people DO continue to follow sports. To them they feel they get value spending money to watch or support their teams.  You yourself have mentioned your support for various teams. 

Olympic fandom is usually tied to nationalism, unless you are an absolute superstar in the sport like the examples you mentioned.

For example, how many general people who aren’t big followers of swimming or the Olympics outside Australia will remember who Ariarne Titmus is?

 

As for pro sports, I said I was a season ticket holder of the Toronto Rock, in that league, since the sport isn’t popular, all the players work regular jobs and thus nearly all games are on weekends. With the small amount of money made there, it’s actual about love of the game in that league.

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The Anzacs actually did quit and evacuate Gallipoli eventually. Indeed their withdrawal was a 100 per cent success, not a life lost. Desertions and mutinies by army groups also became a problem for the High Commands on both sides by the final years of the war.

You’re being incredibly disingenuous bringing war into the discussion, but seeing you did - PTSD, or what they called shellshock then, wasn’t widely understood or recognised at the time. It inevitably contributed to an incredible high suicide rate in the 1920s among combatants from all sides in World War !. PTSD still contributes to veteran suicides today, but at least it is more recognised and actively treated by most nations.

Because something wasn’t acknowledged in the past doesn’t mean things were better in the “old days. I’m sure we could find many an athlete who cracked under pressure, with tragic end results, in those past years.

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35 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Olympic fandom is usually tied to nationalism, unless you are an absolute superstar in the sport like the examples you mentioned.

For example, how many general people who aren’t big followers of swimming or the Olympics outside Australia will remember who Ariarne Titmus is?

 

As for pro sports, I said I was a season ticket holder of the Toronto Rock, in that league, since the sport isn’t popular, all the players work regular jobs and thus nearly all games are on weekends. With the small amount of money made there, it’s actual about love of the game in that league.

Of course, people like to cheer on and see success by their national team. There likely also more familiar with sports more widely and competitively practiced in their country. But I think the Olympics have a broader appeal than just that. Take, for example, gymnastics in the summer games, or ice dancing in winter. Neither are sports where Australia are ever serious title contenders, yet both are among the higher rating sports watched here at any games, and given prime time screen time and rebroadcasts. Similar in athletics - people still relish watching Bolts in the 100m, or the Africans in the distance events. The odd breakthrough like Cathy Freeman or Sally Pearson are rare, and just the icing on the cake. 

Also, one of the delights of the Olympics is watching those sports that rarely get much airtime at other times. I love flicking through the feeds (we get the OBS broadcasts too) of the likes of skateboarding, fencing, BMX, archery etc.  

Edited by Sir Rols
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Ok, I shouldn’t have brought war into this. And you’re probably shocked I knew of the ANZACs. Well, in the Gallipoli Campaign, the Newfoundlanders were there as well. My ancestors are from Newfoundland, and well most Canadians aren’t even aware that Newfoundland was its own dominion from 1907-1949, it got dominion status the same date as New Zealand actually.

As for Newfoundland and the Olympics, they never had an Olympic committee or whatever it was called back then, and the Olympians which did exist back then competed for either Great Britain or USA, none to my knowledge competed for Canada. I do sometimes wonder what Newfoundland’s IOC code would have been.

 

But I’m going way on a tangent, in many ways the olympics, especially in team sports is kind of like war without casualties. The victor of an event has their national anthem played along with the flags raised.

So the Ice Dancing event in particular is very popular in Australia? Interesting, what about the basic solo performances or the pairs?

As for how nationalism plays into this, has the main broadcaster in Australia who has the rights shown a medal ceremony where there’s no Australian athlete on the podium? Better yet, have they shown a medal ceremony where an Australian athlete has won silver or bronze and actually shown the national anthem of the victor country? I know on CBC’s terrestrial feeds I haven’t seen either.

The OBS feeds which appear on CBC’s website have CBC’s logo on them, but the streams usually have (I think) commentators speaking with Australian and Irish accents. Some feeds have no commentary at all. Such as the rare Handball feed they gave us a few days ago. I’m hoping they’ll show Modern Pentathlon on the feeds as that was an interesting sport I witnessed live during the Pan American Games in 2015.

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24 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

So the Ice Dancing event in particular is very popular in Australia? Interesting, what about the basic solo performances or the pairs?

Yes, all the figure skating program.

24 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

has the main broadcaster in Australia who has the rights shown a medal ceremony where there’s no Australian athlete on the podium?

Not that I’m aware of in Tokyo yet, but yes in the past - Phelps, Bolt, Alexie Nemov, Canadian ice hockey at Vancouver - indeed a lot in the case of winter.

actually, edit about Tokyo - we did see the medal ceremony with the 13 year old Brazilian and Japanese girls in skateboarding.

24 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Better yet, have they shown a medal ceremony where an Australian athlete has won silver or bronze and actually shown the national anthem of the victor country?

Yes, all of them

Edited by Sir Rols
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16 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

Let us remember that Simone probably quit because her team and herself would not be hearing The Star Spangled Banner in that arena:

She may have been going through a rough patch but whatever happened to the old saying which is true about life “winners never quit and quitters never win”

Instead in Orwellian fashion, the media is praising the exact opposite effect. You know as in “war is peace” and “ignorance is strength”. I guess then that “quitting is bravery”.

Many runners in say a track race know that they made a crucial mistake that will not allow them to win. As in missing a hurdle and taking a tumble, but in nearly all cases, they get back up and finish the race and audiences appreciate that.

Instead, Simone quitting is reminiscent of how Michael Johnson quit in that infamous 150m race at Toronto’s Skydome when he knew he couldn’t beat Donovan Bailey.

 

As for you in Australia, where would society be if quitting was deemed acceptable. I’m sure the veterans you acknowledge on ANZAC Day went through a heck of a lot worse, and they never ever quit. They kept going, and god knows what could have happened if they simply surrendered because they were having “demons”. I’m sure those that did die in the many wars would be spinning in their graves about this attitude.

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Simone Biles has now withdrawn from the floor final. This means that she only has one event left, if she competes.

I feel so much for Simone. Whatever is wrong with her must be really bad for her to withdraw from all of these events on the worlds biggest stage and what will most likely be her last olympic Games.

I have a feeling we may get a tell all Oprah interview when she is back in the states.

As an athlete myself i know that her decision will not be taken easily.

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NBC Universal is expecting to turn a profit on the Tokyo Olympics. Meanwhile the revised figures for Tokyo's financial losses have gone from $20 billion to $30 billion.

I doubt these numbers go unnoticed by the No olympics crowd

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44 minutes ago, stryker said:

NBC Universal is expecting to turn a profit on the Tokyo Olympics. Meanwhile the revised figures for Tokyo's financial losses have gone from $20 billion to $30 billion.

To put things in perspective, that $30 billion is $562.53 lost per Japanese household across the entire country.

I doubt there will ever be another Olympics held in Japan after this.

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2 hours ago, stryker said:

NBC Universal is expecting to turn a profit on the Tokyo Olympics. Meanwhile the revised figures for Tokyo's financial losses have gone from $20 billion to $30 billion.

I doubt these numbers go unnoticed by the No olympics crowd

Where'd you get that figure?  

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2 hours ago, Nacre said:

To put things in perspective, that $30 billion is $562.53 lost per Japanese household across the entire country.

I doubt there will ever be another Olympics held in Japan after this.

"ever" is a long time.  Remains to be seen if this kills off any chances for Sapporo.  But yea, there may be another Olympics in Japan, but that's decades off if it happens

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6 hours ago, Nacre said:

To put things in perspective, that $30 billion is $562.53 lost per Japanese household across the entire country.

That doesn't seem that expensive when you put it in the perspective of the bigger picture. Just skip this year's "latest smartphone" craze, & you'd still come out ahead, considering the flagship models are well in excess of $1K these days.

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How much of that would they have made back in ticket sales though? Seems silly to use that figure in anti Olympic arguments, since (hopefully, please) these will be the only Olympics ever to be without crowds and that revenue. 

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We always knew Tokyo weren’t going to be a cheap games, but the Japanese seemed to be prepared to wear it until Covid. The pandemic really hit that bottom line hard, though, and unfortunately brought the whole investment in new stadia and the like into question. I hope the Japanese are enjoying the action and getting a lift out of their really good medal successes, but these are always going to be tarred as the Covid Games.

The NoOlympics crowd will of course milk that for all the mileage they can get. And social media these days gives them, like anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers, a disproportionately large megaphone.

The IOC, however, must be counting their blessings that if they were ever gonna have to take such a hit, they did it at a time when they already had three summer hosts locked in and up their sleeve. The proof of the pudding will now be how those games turn out, and on paper at least you’d have to say the Paris-LA-Brisbane sequence have the potential to be a solid successful run.

Will Japan ever bid again? I’d guess probably eventually. The jury’s still out on how the Japanese will regard these games long term. But I guess Covid will take a lot of the heat for many of the negatives rather than the Olympics per-se. All it will take is a few positive Olympics to come. Look at it this way, Montreal left a ledger in the red and a bad stench in Canada, but they didn’t stop Canada since 1976 going on to host two winter games and bid for two summer games.       

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29 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

We always knew Tokyo weren’t going to be a cheap games, but the Japanese seemed to be prepared to wear it until Covid. Will Japan ever bid again? I’d guess probably eventually. Look at it this way, Montreal left a ledger in the red and a bad stench in Canada, but they didn’t stop Canada since 1976 going on to host two winter games and bid for two summer games.       

That's a great analogy. And in regards to the Japanese, the case can be made the result that was Tokyo 2020ne, was something that was well beyond the TOCOG to even foresee back in 2013 when they won the bid.

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52 minutes ago, FYI said:

That's a great analogy. And in regards to the Japanese, the case can be made the result that was Tokyo 2020ne, was something that was well beyond the TOCOG to even foresee back in 2013 when they won the bid.

And on top of that, in terms of Montreal and Calgary, the Canadians didn’t even get the benefit of gold medals in front of a home crowd to stoke their future enthusiasm. The Japanese at least are getting lots of home town heroes to cheer them.

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It’s interesting that with what’s happened/happening with Tokyo 2020 that this 12 July 2021 report shows Sapporo 2030 is still on the radar (?).  Is this way out of date or is Sapporo 2030 pressing ahead? The two Games are very much connected now by the opinion polls of the Japanese people and the IOC’s new rules around public support:
 

Sapporo Wins Olympic Bid Backing - 12 July 2021 - Around The Rings via Infobae.com

“ATR: The site of the first Winter Olympics in Asia aims for an encore in 2030.”

“Sapporo, host of the 1972 Winter Games, is now the official candidate from Japan for 2030. The Japanese Olympic Committee met January 29 to endorse Sapporo’s efforts to secure the Games. The capital city of Hokkaido Prefecture was the only city responding to a call for bids in Japan that ended in December.”

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6 hours ago, stryker said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2021/07/30/tokyo-olympics-expected-to-lose-30-billion-huge-disaster/amp/

I am usually skeptical of the NY Post especially since it was Trump's mouthpiece in New York but Zimbalist is usually spot on.

They've had a lot of anti-Olympics articles recently.  I'm not going to automatically dismiss their sources, but it feels like it be another hit job from a media company that's a direct competitor to Comcast/NBCU

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2 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

Will Japan ever bid again? I’d guess probably eventually. The jury’s still out on how the Japanese will regard these games long term. But I guess Covid will take a lot of the heat for many of the negatives rather than the Olympics per-se. All it will take is a few positive Olympics to come. Look at it this way, Montreal left a ledger in the red and a bad stench in Canada, but they didn’t stop Canada since 1976 going on to host two winter games and bid for two summer games.       

Like I said, "ever" is a long time.  Would guess it'll take a long time and a new generation that has little memory of these Olympics to whet their appetite again.  Little different though than Canada since there were different cities involved.  We'll see what happens with Sapporo and how that will be received.  But in terms of a Summer Olympics, I can't see another city in Japan bidding, so I think the lingering memories and the numbers will be a turn-off for awhile to come

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