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yoshi

UK. EU. Yes? No? Referendum 23 June.

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I'm in favor of whichever decision weakens the British pound. I want to visit England, but everything is ridiculously expensive there lol

:D haha...doesn't quite work like that.

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As many of you will know, my instincts are Eurosceptic. I believe the European Union, in its current form, is in need of radical reform and that feeling was summed up very well for me in a tweet I saw from John Cleese a few days ago in which he said: "If I thought there was any chance of major reform in the EU, I'd vote to stay in. But there isn't. Sad."

Wait. John Cleese is on team "Leave". But I swear I saw him on a boat protesting to stay in. Can anyone find him in this picture?

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Christ, the battle on the Thames made news in the US?! How fucking embarrassing. :ph34r:

It was also a Jeopardy answer in an episode that aired today! Sadly no one got it right lol

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It was also a Jeopardy answer in an episode that aired today! Sadly no one got it right lol

:rolleyes: The chimp watches Jeopardy? Oh right, it's got images, I forgot.

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:rolleyes: The chimp watches Jeopardy? Oh right, it's got images, I forgot.

Teeehee heeeheee heeeheee. GB still a fun place...:D

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Leave: jump out of a moving bus at 90 kph

Remain: sit in the bus while Brussels drives it into the ocean

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Leave: jump out of a moving bus at 90 kph

Remain: sit in the bus while Brussels drives it into the ocean

London still has a chance to grab the wheel...

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Im in. The in campaign has depressed the hell out of me with their scare stories, but Im still voting in. I want them to sell me the positives not try to frighten the bejeezers out of me. Farrage, Boris, Grove etc, don't care about me. They care about themselves and if The Sun, Farrage and Boris Johnson tell me to do something, you can bet by god I will do the opposite.

Im voting in and Im voting in for Jo.

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My gut instincts have always been the same. I've always been a committed Europhile and that will never change. There's no question that I will vote 'Remain'.

To be honest, this whole referendum lark is just a ridiculous waste of time as far as I'm concerned. Who does it possibly benefit apart from the likes of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and a bunch of die-hard Tory Eurosceptics who have never been able to accept that we joined the EU in the first place?

To those who are undecided I will say this:

1. Is the European Union perfect?

Of course it isn't. It has many problems and many things it could do better. But it does far more good than harm and it's the job of all the member countries to pull together and work to find common consensus on how to make it work better. If it is such a rotten organisation, why are countries queuing up to join it and why do we not see other member countries complaining that they made a mistake by joining?

2. Just because the European Union isn't perfect, is that a valid argument for pulling out?

Of course not. As I just said, it has done us far more good than it has ever done us any harm. Think how stable our economy has been for most of the time we have been members! We have low unemployment, extremely low inflation and the second largest economy in Europe. Are we willing to risk all that by plunging into an unknown future based on nothing more than a vague assurance on the part of Johnson, Farage and co that things will somehow be much better if we just up sticks and go our separate way? Name me one single institution that IS perfect and doesn't have its problems? Does that mean we should get rid of all of them too? Of course not!

3. Does Brexit really have a coherent set of arguments for leaving?

If so, where is their detailed plan for what will happen when we leave and how this is going to safeguard our jobs, our pensions, our standing in the international community and make us all better off all round? Or is their position more rooted in an emotional, virtually atavistic dislike of being associated with anything European? Consider Johnson's and Farage's nonsensical statements about the EU being the successor to Nazi Germany and you decide who are the irrational, lunatic fringe in this particular debate?

I would add that, like arwebb and Rob, I too deplore the depressingly negative campaigning and pointless but all too predictable mud-slinging that both sides have indulged in. Instead of scaring us all with dire predictions, why the f**k can't Cameron and co come out and give us the POSITIVE reasons for being an EU member and reminding us all of the BENEFITS rather than trying to terrify us into staying? And as I already said, why can't Johnson and Farage put a POSITIVE spin on the case for leaving instead of trying to persuade us what a nasty, untrustworthy lot those Europeans are and that therefore it would be better if we had no close associations with them?

There's an old adage that's never been truer: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

The EU may have its problems but the UK has done very well by being a member and negotiating all the various opt-outs it thinks it requires. Our economy and standard of living has never been better and that should be SOME indication of the benefits of membership. Why tear that all up and risk our relationship with our closest neighbours just to accommodate the strange and unreconstructed prejudices of certain politicians? The European Union has been good for Europe and it has been good for the UK. For f**k's sake, lets not put that at unnecessary risk and plunge us all into an uncertain future!

I intend to do the right thing on Thursday. I just hope and pray that a majority of my fellow Brits will find the courage to do the same!!!

Edited by Mainad
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Even though the polls are 50/50, I still think "remain" will win.

Too many people say they are going to pull out but fail to do so at the critical moment.

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Well, I've now passed the point of no return. After watching the BBC debate at Wembley Arena tonight, I've made my decision and put the cross in my chosen box on the ballot paper, which will be in the post first thing tomorrow morning.

I'm not going to say how I've voted at this stage. I believe there are powerful arguments on both sides of this debate and I feel that others who are still undecided should be given the time and space to reach their own conclusions, as I have done. There is no perfect solution. But I've voted for the option that I believe is the best for me, for my family, for my friends and for my country. Ultimately, that is what we must all do between now and 10pm on Thursday.

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Well, I've now passed the point of no return. After watching the BBC debate at Wembley Arena tonight, I've made my decision and put the cross in my chosen box on the ballot paper, which will be in the post first thing tomorrow morning.

I'm not going to say how I've voted at this stage. I believe there are powerful arguments on both sides of this debate and I feel that others who are still undecided should be given the time and space to reach their own conclusions, as I have done. There is no perfect solution. But I've voted for the option that I believe is the best for me, for my family, for my friends and for my country. Ultimately, that is what we must all do between now and 10pm on Thursday.

Are you not resident in the UK at the moment, arwebb?

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To be honest, this whole referendum lark is just a ridiculous waste of time as far as I'm concerned. Who does it possibly benefit apart from the likes of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and a bunch of die-hard Tory Eurosceptics who have never been able to accept that we joined the EU in the first place?

I think your question strikes at the heart of why the tone of this campaign has been as hard-edged as it has been. There are a lot of people in this country who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the EU of today is a fundamentally different institution to the one that we joined in the 1970s. The Eurosceptic movement has, broadly speaking, grown steadily in strength for the last 20 years or so, really from the moment that the EC became the EU through the Maastricht Treaty, and I think a key reason for that is the reluctance of successive governments to actively engage in debate with them. If this had happened 20, 10 or even five years ago, I don't think it would be as tight as it seems right now.

Most fundamentally, though, I don't see it as a waste of time to ask a population, a large majority of whom have never been asked before, to consider this matter. David Cameron, in my view, is to be commended, whatever the reasons, for doing what should have been done a long time ago.

Are you not resident in the UK at the moment, arwebb?

Very much resident in the UK and also very much working covering the count. My polling day will be spent in the office and then trying to get some rest ahead of what I suspect will be a long and historic night, either way.

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Of course it isn't. It has many problems and many things it could do better. But it does far more good than harm and it's the job of all the member countries to pull together and work to find common consensus on how to make it work better. If it is such a rotten organisation, why are countries queuing up to join it and why do we not see other member countries complaining that they made a mistake by joining?

For national and political reasons rather than economic reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI

You'll never find common consensus on how to deal with the problems in the EU because its constituent countries all have different national interests. Hence conflict between Greece and Germany over how to handle sovereign debt, the Balkan countries being angry about the influx of refugees, and Western European anger about unskilled workers flooding in from Eastern Europe.

Superstates like China or the USA only work because the national governments are not really democratic. The corrupt two party political system in the USA (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/11/facebook-posts/congress-has-11-approval-ratings-96-incumbent-re-e/) and willingness to use military force to suppress renegade states means there is no choice but to accept the national government. If Hong Kong tries to leave China the Chinese will simply gas the city.

The problem is that it is not in the national interest of the UK to stick with the EU, but leaving would also be disastrous both to the UK's trade relations and the future of the Europe. So Britain has two terrible choices. Do you weaken the living standards of the working class and give up some degree of democracy, or do you make a selfish decision that threatens the stability of the continent Britain is a part of?

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I think your question strikes at the heart of why the tone of this campaign has been as hard-edged as it has been. There are a lot of people in this country who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the EU of today is a fundamentally different institution to the one that we joined in the 1970s. The Eurosceptic movement has, broadly speaking, grown steadily in strength for the last 20 years or so, really from the moment that the EC became the EU through the Maastricht Treaty, and I think a key reason for that is the reluctance of successive governments to actively engage in debate with them. If this had happened 20, 10 or even five years ago, I don't think it would be as tight as it seems right now.

Most fundamentally, though, I don't see it as a waste of time to ask a population, a large majority of whom have never been asked before, to consider this matter. David Cameron, in my view, is to be commended, whatever the reasons, for doing what should have been done a long time ago.

Very much resident in the UK and also very much working covering the count. My polling day will be spent in the office and then trying to get some rest ahead of what I suspect will be a long and historic night, either way.

I just think that all this has been an unnecessary diversion from what should be the real business of the day ie. to keep the economy going and address the many domestic problems we are experiencing. I can't escape the feeling that all this has come about solely to appease an aggressively Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party which has never been able to accept seeing the UK as part of something wider admidst the continent we all share. If it wasn't for their constant scaremongering and unscrupulous politicking backed up by the feral Tory dominated tabloids, I seriously doubt the average person in the UK would have given a second thought about whether it would be a good thing to pull out of the EU. I haven't come across a single person who was concerned or energised by any of this before the Tory Eurosceptics and their buddies in Fleet Street pushed Cameron into promising this referendum! In my opinion it is an agenda pursued by some primarily for the benefit of themselves with little or no thought to what it might actually entail for the rest of the country and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we will all not have to face these consequences after Thursday!

By the way, I asked if you were resident because I noticed you said you had a postal vote. That was the only reason.

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For national and political reasons rather than economic reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI

You'll never find common consensus on how to deal with the problems in the EU because its constituent countries all have different national interests. Hence conflict between Greece and Germany over how to handle sovereign debt, the Balkan countries being angry about the influx of refugees, and Western European anger about unskilled workers flooding in from Eastern Europe.

Superstates like China or the USA only work because the national governments are not really democratic. The corrupt two party political system in the USA (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/11/facebook-posts/congress-has-11-approval-ratings-96-incumbent-re-e/) and willingness to use military force to suppress renegade states means there is no choice but to accept the national government. If Hong Kong tries to leave China the Chinese will simply gas the city.

The problem is that it is not in the national interest of the UK to stick with the EU, but leaving would also be disastrous both to the UK's trade relations and the future of the Europe. So Britain has two terrible choices. Do you weaken the living standards of the working class and give up some degree of democracy, or do you make a selfish decision that threatens the stability of the continent Britain is a part of?

I disagree. I think that it very much IS in the interest of the UK to stick with the EU, however flawed it might be because the alternatives are so much worse. We made a commitment back in 1973 after pressing hard for many years to be allowed to join and we should stick by that commitment and work to make it better. In my opinion, that is the only mature and sensible thing to do and I just hope that those of us still undecided will come to that same conclusion on Thursday.

By the way, the US is very much a democratic country. Like the EU, its democracy is flawed but that's no argument for wanting to leave the union and break up the country, is it? You work with it, flaws and all, and try to make it better because the alternatives are so much worse. Ditto the UK's relationship with the EU.

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Iirc exit polls aren't allowed to be reported until after the polls are closed. Not sure about the official results though. UK Members keep us posted, yeah? :)

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I guess it depends on how they are announcing the results. If it is like the general elections and the 2014 Scottish Referendum then they should announce each area, with the results coming in over the night.

If they just announce a general leave or remain outcome then they may wait until morning...

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Iirc exit polls aren't allowed to be reported until after the polls are closed. Not sure about the official results though. UK Members keep us posted, yeah? :)

As with the IndyRef, there won't be any exit polls. Exit polls work by asking people how they voted then comparing it to previous election results and their exit polls. There's no historical data for this so no exit polling.

Edited by Rob.

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The results from each area are being declared throughout the night. If it's as close as has been suggested, we won't know anything until dawn at the earliest.

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Stay with or opt out of the UK?

Stay with or opt out of the EU?

Stay with or opt out of the Commonwealth?

stay with or opt out of planet Earth? :blink:

FGS, British people, make up your minds once and for all!! :wacko:

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By the way, the US is very much a democratic country. Like the EU, its democracy is flawed but that's no argument for wanting to leave the union and break up the country, is it?

The two party USA is less democratic than multi-party states are, and one party states like China are still less democratic. And that restraint on democracy is needed to keep sectional interests from gaining more political power in governments where people have very different economies and social views.

My state in the USA is libertarian, with legal euthanasia and marijuana in addition to lots of guns & hunting and no state-level personal income tax. Other states are as conservative as many middle eastern countries. Yet other states believe in big government as in Europe. If the USA were fully democratic Seattle, Dallas and Boston would never be able to coexist.

I think the UK should stay in the EU. But to make that work requires yielding more control to the political elite in Brussels and sacrificing the interests of the working class to further wage competition from EU migration.

It is the promise that the union will be good for everyone that has gotten the EU in trouble. In fact, making the system work requires sacrifices from everyone. Germany has to reduce its exports and subsidize the rest of the continent, France has to reduce its socialist tendencies, etc. And for Britons it is the same.

Edited by Nacre

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