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UK. EU. Yes? No? Referendum 23 June.


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I ask myself what are the best answers of the general questions of our time...

We all are facing in my point of view two major revolutions at the moment, which depend/interact on/with each other: globalisation and a world-wide technical one...

Globalisation is everywhere and we recognise that our neighbourhood/region/country isn't as before - labour, which doesn't rely on your neighbourhood/region/country directly, like groceries, services, cultural institutions...., can be done everywhere in the world, due the technical development makes it more and more possible. Our earth became a "village" - and we all face the consequences - the good and the bad...

At the same time we had major political changes in Europe, which we all welcomed and made our continent different - we shouldn't think in patterns like "East-" and "West-Europe" anymore, but we see a lot more of immigration of the former "East-Europe" to "West-Europe"than the other way round. The article is about how we people from "former West-Europe" esteem people from "former East-Europe" and Suzana shows us, that we still differ between two Europes. When "West Europe" is really interested in "democracy" and "liberty" we have to find a way to "cope" with this immigration, since Putin will do everything to unstable Europe and get Russia's influence sphere back. When I read the last sentence it seems that this immigration is just a burden, but thats not - it is funny when you talk in general you esteem it as a burden, but when you talk with one person from e.g. Poland - you start to differ, like: yeah, there is a lot of immigration and there are so many people, who abuse our social system, but you are different... Is that right? This Polish person might feel very offended or humiliated, since they are proud in their country and countrymen like us...

At the same time we have huge political changes/wars in the Middle East and Africa going on, which make people try to escape - do we have a responsibility for them respectively for the changes/wars? Yes, since our deeds had and have impacts on the Middle East and Africa and we committed ourselves when we all the convention relating to the status of refugees (all European states did that)...

So how can we handle best the challenges of today:

- immigration

- refugees

- "Putin's threat"

- globalisation

- social injustice?

I am sure that we don't find answers in the past (where the sun was always shining, the lawn was green, you got an appointment at the GP right away, you didn't have to stand that people are talking in a foreign language in the bus, the technical development has to be ignored therefore labour stays where it is...)

We all tend to keep in the comfort zone, but the world around us is changing permanently and even faster than before

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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Johnson's leadership campaign has so far cost £130bn

I yet have to recover - yesterday, I was honestly depressed about the result. While it was apparent that the Leave camp might win for weeks, I regained my old hope that reason (and therefore, the Rema

"Immigration":
Well, Germany doesn't esteem itself as a country with immigration - I wonder why, since there is immigration, but we don't have an immigration law like e.g. Canada (which is often used as positive example of a country with an immigration law in Germany). There are several reasons of this immigration - one is our definition of German citizenship - Germany has an ius sanguinis approach, which means, when one of your ancestors owned the German citizenship you can get the German citizenship wherever you were born. This approach caused immigration from e.g. Kazakhstan, Russia or Romania after the end of the cold war, since these countries have huge German ethnic groups ("Volga Germans", "Transylvanian Saxons") - 5.613 immigrated from Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan in 2014. These people are not seen as immigrants by our law, since they own the German citizenship anyway - in German you use another phrase for these immigrants: "late repatriates". You can be very sure that these people don't want to be called "immigrants", since they esteem themselves as Germans and they are Germans by definition...

Since they need homes some towns built new houses for them or old houses were refurbished - you can imagine that this caused envy and and resentments by people, who can't afford to live in new houses or old housed, which were refurbished. You can hear xenophobic rants sometimes like "you just need to own a German shepherd dog and you can get a German citizenship" by xenophobic Germans about these late repatriates... When the late repatriates are not able to find a job these residential areas are changing into kind of social hotspots (there are surveys that the right wing party AfD is the leading party in these social hotspots, which is strange since that is the same no matter if late repatriates or "normal Germans" are living in these social hotspots - in one social hotspot the AfD is elected because of envy toward these Volga Germans/Transylvanian Saxons in the other one because of the envy toward refugees).

Isn't the debate about immigration "just" a debate about social justice and a kind of distribution conflict? We open a box of pandora when you put people into a special corner ala "you receive the German citizenship only, since you own a German sheperd dog" - that hurts people personally and it makes a solution of the problem much more difficult. So isn't it more important to talk about the distribution conflict and if we have the monetary means...

In regard of the EU - when you want to have a free democratic "East Europe" or "South Europe" then you shouldn't treat people from there in a bad way - our wealth is based on stable circumstances in Europe and it would be an immense loss when East Europe gets lost again...

By the way East Europe is not against refugees, but they fear that they get less of the money they get now - it is a distribution conflict also.

It is all about money - which gets fewer and fewer and we have to decide very fast how we can solve this conflict. I recommend not to put it onto the level of immigration "yes" or "no", but "how" and how we can keep social peace and justice, which isn't less important!

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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"Immigration":

Well, Germany doesn't esteem itself as a country with immigration - I wonder why, since there is immigration, but we don't have an immigration law like e.g. Canada (which is often used as positive example of a country with an immigration law in Germany). There are several reasons of this immigration - one is our definition of German citizenship - Germany has an ius sanguinis approach, which means, when one of your ancestors owned the German citizenship you can get the German citizenship wherever you were born. This approach caused immigration from e.g. Kazakhstan, Russia or Romania after the end of the cold war, since these countries have huge German ethnic groups ("Volga Germans", "Transylvanian Saxons") - 5.613 immigrated from Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan in 2014. These people are not seen as immigrants by our law, since they own the German citizenship anyway - in German you use another phrase for these immigrants: "late repatriates". You can be very sure that these people don't want to be called "immigrants", since they esteem themselves as Germans and they are Germans by definition...

Since they need homes some towns built new houses for them or old houses were refurbished - you can imagine that this caused envy and and resentments by people, who can't afford to live in new houses or old housed, which were refurbished. You can hear xenophobic rants sometimes like "you just need to own a German shepherd dog and you can get a German citizenship" by xenophobic Germans about these late repatriates... When the late repatriates are not able to find a job these residential areas are changing into kind of social hotspots (there are surveys that the right wing party AfD is the leading party in these social hotspots, which is strange since that is the same no matter if late repatriates or "normal Germans" are living in these social hotspots - in one social hotspot the AfD is elected because of envy toward these Volga Germans/Transylvanian Saxons in the other one because of the envy toward refugees).

Isn't the debate about immigration "just" a debate about social justice and a kind of distribution conflict? We open a box of pandora when you put people into a special corner ala "you receive the German citizenship only, since you own a German sheperd dog" - that hurts people personally and it makes a solution of the problem much more difficult. So isn't it more important to talk about the distribution conflict and if we have the monetary means...

In regard of the EU - when you want to have a free democratic "East Europe" or "South Europe" then you shouldn't treat people from there in a bad way - our wealth is based on stable circumstances in Europe and it would be an immense loss when East Europe gets lost again...

By the way East Europe is not against refugees, but they fear that they get less of the money they get now - it is a distribution conflict also.

It is all about money - which gets fewer and fewer and we have to decide very fast how we can solve this conflict. I recommend not to put it onto the level of immigration "yes" or "no", but "how" and how we can keep social peace and justice, which isn't less important!

Does it matter how far back your German ancestry is so long as you can prove a German ancestor? Ireland, for instance, will not accept anyone further back than a grandparent (I am currently exploring the process of applying for Irish citizenship because my maternal grandfather was Irish).

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Does it matter how far back your German ancestry is so long as you can prove a German ancestor? Ireland, for instance, will not accept anyone further back than a grandparent (I am currently exploring the process of applying for Irish citizenship because my maternal grandfather was Irish).

Yes - when one of your parents owned the German citizenship at your birth you are automatically German citizens - wherever you were born.

When no one of your parents owned the German citizenship at your birth then you have to prove that one of your parents was an ethnic German, which becomes more and more difficult the longer the citizenship of your ancestors is ago... And there should have been ties with being German - e.g. the Transylvanian Saxons in Romania have a rich German culture...

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I think that's where the Brexiters were coming from CAF. There is a new form of "cultural nationalisim" growing around the world. More so towards the top end industrialised "Anglo/European nations that the less look on as having everything. So they head towards the "shining city on the hill" hoping for the better... Only to realize once they eventually make it through the gates...it was all a facade. They just walked in as someone elses problem.

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The immigration issues in the EU are partly as a result of globalisation but also about EU policies and ideology. It's right that richer countries should offer opportunities and refuge to immigrants from poorer EU countries and war torn countries. But, you have to look at the environmental and social constraints in the host country. You can't build a better world by making everyone poorer - that is why socialism / communism failed. The host countries can benefit from immigration - and the UK certainly has. You also have to acknowledge that at a certain point, if immigration is left uncontrolled, then the benefits tip in to costs (not just financial). I think the EU referendum result shows that in broad terms the UK population has calculated that the costs now outweigh the benefits.

Of course a loud small minority makes that choice look racist / nationalistic. / far right. However, only listening to those voices misses the bigger point. The majority of people in the UK live and work alongside Poles, Latvians, spaniards, Italians etc etc and there is no problem. British culture and society doesn't recognise itself as an ethnicity because we're not. The White population is a melting pot of ethnic ancient tribes which was added to by later influxes of Vikings, French, Germans, Indians, Africans, Pakistanis and others. Immigration is not a new phenomenon and has broadly happened without incident. It doesn't matter where the latest influx has come from, the fact is for most in the UK it's a pure numbers game. Many Brits with a immigrant background voted to leave the EU because of immigration and the effect it was having on their lives - not because they resented any particular cultural traits of the immigrants. The EU just doesn't get this.

It's probably true to say that most refugees and immigrants have English as a second language. They will naturally come to the UK if they could. That's not arrogance it's a significant probability. It's the "path of least resistance" for a significant number of immigrants and refugees to settle in an English speaking country. Thousands are living in squalor in calaise for the chance of a new life in the UK. Anyone driving to the Channel Tunnel or port will feel scared and under siege at the sight that meets them. This is the background to the immigration debate in the UK. With a population increasing at a rate of 330,000 people per year no one can argue the uk has / is not taking its fair share of immigrants. - refugees are a separate issue but the EU arguably dampened people's enthusiasm to offer refuge in the way Germany has. I think that's a shame and is wrong. - but we are where we are.

Get a map of Europe. - look at the size of the U.K. Is it right that this relatively small island will have the largest population in the EU by 2030?

Edited by Ripley
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Theresa May is now the most powerful woman in the World... Or at least until January 20th.

I'm just wondering if a seal it up tight Snap election will be held next month?

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Theresa May is now the most powerful woman in the World... Or at least until January 20th.

I'm just wondering if a seal it up tight Snap election will be held next month?

Angela M might disagree...

Don't think they'll call an election now. Neither Tories nor Labour seem really prepared for it, to put it mildly.

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Angela M might disagree...

Don't think they'll call an election now. Neither Tories nor Labour seem really prepared for it, to put it mildly.

Oddly enough, I think the power to force an election is precisely what makes Theresa May more powerful than Angela Merkel just now. Because the referendum was technically "advisory" but has to be considered by the government elected with it as a manifesto pledge in 2015 as binding, the one way Brexit can be avioided with any semblance of grace is to somehow turn the implementation into an election issue. In theory May's Tories will have to go into the election promising to implement Brexit, but as we keep seeing in Britain this summer, unexpected is the new inevitable.

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May has just appointed Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary.

Think about that for a minute.

Boris Johnson as Fucking Foreign Fucking Secretary.

Ridiculous. Didn't May mock his negotiating skills with the Germans only last week or so?

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No surprises that NZ Immigration has had a surge of inquiries from Brittons looking at moving here...

Actually in their favour as NZ is short of specialist health workers and housing/infrastructure builders. Of course Brittons fit right in easy.

Boris Johnson as been put where he is simply because this is the mess he needs to repair, he made...

As for that US Supreme Court judge (Ginsburg) that said she'll move to NZ if Trump becomes President... Sorry, not welcome. Clean up you're own back yard first.

Edited by Alexjc
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Boris Johnson as been put where he is simply because this is the mess he needs to repair, he made...

Johnson won't really be involved in delivering Brexit. The very competent David Davis has been been made the new Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. It's his new department that will be negotiating with Brussels.

I'm feeling slightly more positive about it with him overseeing it. Only slightly, mind you.

Edited by Rob.
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May has just appointed Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary.

Think about that for a minute.

Boris Johnson as Fucking Foreign Fucking Secretary.

I've slept on it. I've been to work all day and it still seems as wrong as it did when I first read the news last night. I'm not sure whether our new Prime Minister has gone mad or given him sufficient leeway to destroy his career. Either way, it is striking how the key Brexit jobs have gone to hardened Leavers and yet the context being created by May and Hammond (and I can't think of those names without expecting Clarkson to appear round the Cabinet table) is one where continued access to the single market appears to be a red line. I'm not sure how that resolves itself without a compromise that is politically damaging to the Tories one way or other, or without resignations. I wouldn't put much money on that team still being intact this time next year.

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Six weeks ago he wrote a poem about the Turkish prime minister having sex with a goat. Now he's the Foreign Minister.

Yeah.....context is kind of important here though! :lol:

He came up with a limerick during a radio interview and it was later entered into The Spectator's "President Erdogan Offensive Poetry competition"

The reason The Spectator was running such a competition was in protest at Germany allowing Erdogan to prosecute a comedian in its courts for "insulting" him. (i.e. making fun out of him during a TV sketch show).

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/merkel-approves-prosecution-german-comedian-insulting-turkeys-president-erdogan-1555071

I don't like Johnson, but his terrible limerick deserves to be shared widely. It was one occasion he got something dead right.

There was a young fellow from Ankara

Who was a terrific wankerer

Till he sowed his wild oats

With the help of a goat

But he didn’t even stop to thankera.

Well done Boris!

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