Russian Doping Scandal = BIG Olympic Threat

[Rob2012]

16 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

I don't think a blanket ban would have been workable. Preventing "clean" athletes their shot at the games would have been a real denial of their natural justice and would have left the field open for all kinds of legal problems ahead.

Given that we can't know who is clean from Russia the IOC have instead decided to deny natural justice to every other athlete. They've also denied natural justice to every athlete in the past who's been cheated out of medals by Russia. It looks like the IOC has given no thought to these clean athletes.

In truth, whichever choice the IOC made clean athletes would've been harmed. But only one choice would send a strong message about doping and actually punish those responsible. It was the one they refused to take. As such Bach is a failure.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Rob.

[Sir Rols]

3 hours ago, Rob. said:

In truth, whichever choice the IOC made clean athletes would've been harmed. But only one choice would send a strong message about doping and actually punish those responsible. It was the one they refused to take. As such Bach is a failure.

 

This is where I think the India formula - allow Russian athletes who meet the criteria the IOC is now proposing to compete, but have them march under the Olympic flag instead of the Russian - would have worked better. It would have been a big sanction and spit in the eye at the Russian authorities and NOC, but still left the window open for those who could prove their innocence to not get hit in the crossfire. 

 

I agree, that what they have decided is just lily-livered piss weak appeasement.

 

I take it the IAAF ban is still in force? At least Isabayeva won't be there. I used to like her, but since her homophobic comments during Sochi, her ongoing role as a Putin poster girl and her more recent petulant remark, I've really come to despise her.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Sir Rols

[Citius Altius Fortius]

2 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

 

I take it the IAAF ban is still in force? At least Isabayeva won't be there. I used to like her, but since her homophobic comments during Sochi, her ongoing role as a Putin poster girl and her more recent petulant remark, I've really come to despise her.

Yes, of course!

The IOC delegated the decision to the IF's - so every international sports federation can join the IAAF to ban Russia

Edited July 25, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[stryker]

I don't think the threat to ban Russia completely from the Olympics was ever that serious, and I say that for the same reasons FIFA never considered taking the 2022 WC away from Qatar - the political fallout would be disastrous, perhaps (albeit a longshot) enough to destroy the IOC.

The IOC just banned Kuwait for government interference in their Olympic team. It's much easier to ban a country like Kuwait than it is a country like Russia. How would Putin have responded to a blanket ban? That was more than likely the foremost fear on the mind of Thomas Bach. What happens if you poke a bear that's cornered? Probably would have gone to the CAS first and if that didn't work out, Russia would probably do everything in its power to damage or even bring down the IOC entirely, call it the scorched earth approach. Perhaps they would try to pull close allies out of the Olympics and stage a rival games. The Eastern Bloc countries did it in 1984. Countries like Russia are too big and too powerful to give blanket bans to.

[Faster]

9 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

The issue there is whether or not there was a greater presence involved with Gaitlin and his actions involving doping.  It's the reason we look at cyclists from the last decade the way we do because so many of them conspired together rather than acting on their own.  That's why someone like Gaitlin might get a second chance whereas the Russians may not.  It's definitely a slippery slope, but again, it's where the line is being blurred over what is the appropriate punishment and what is too harsh that it potentially hurts innocent athletes.  And PBE is right to the extent the the IOC may or may not be responsible for creating this culture where athletes believe it's acceptable to cheat in order to gain greater glory and take the risk of getting caught.  As a baseball fan here in the States, it's 1 of the issues that MLB has where someone can use PEDs, get caught, and then resume their career and make millions of dollars as if it's ancient history.  That's what the IOC needs to stamp out here, because this is very much in the present.

 

Gatlin's on his 3rd chance. He popped a positive in 2001 and 2006 and should have gotten a life ban, but things being the way they are his first suspension was reduced.

[StefanMUC]

2 hours ago, stryker said:

I don't think the threat to ban Russia completely from the Olympics was ever that serious, and I say that for the same reasons FIFA never considered taking the 2022 WC away from Qatar - the political fallout would be disastrous, perhaps (albeit a longshot) enough to destroy the IOC.

The IOC just banned Kuwait for government interference in their Olympic team. It's much easier to ban a country like Kuwait than it is a country like Russia. How would Putin have responded to a blanket ban? That was more than likely the foremost fear on the mind of Thomas Bach. What happens if you poke a bear that's cornered? Probably would have gone to the CAS first and if that didn't work out, Russia would probably do everything in its power to damage or even bring down the IOC entirely, call it the scorched earth approach. Perhaps they would try to pull close allies out of the Olympics and stage a rival games. The Eastern Bloc countries did it in 1984. Countries like Russia are too big and too powerful to give blanket bans to.

Not to forget: In Kuwait, the government interfered because of issues within the NOC, run by good Bach friend al Sabah. 

Honni soit qui mal y pense.

[Mainad]

On 24/07/2016 at 3:31 PM, plusbrilliantsexploits said:

An avowal of failure and a complete surrender to the likes of Vladimir Putin: The decision to not impose the well-deserved blanket ban on the delegation from the Russian Federation just proves that connections appear to talk louder in the International Olympic Committee than ideals. As I had suspected before his election, Thomas Bach is yet another apparatchik without visions, integrity or desires to genuinely enact a root-and-branch reform of the Olympic Movement. At this rate, even Gianni Infantino of FIFA deserves more praise (though some of his actions are, well, also questionable)...What is to distinguish Bach from the feckless Avery Brundage (with his anti-Semitic tendencies and stubborn refusal to countenance a change to the antiquated adherence to amateurism) and the lacklustre Lord Kilanin (who undermined the Olympic Movement through his bad handling of the political controversies in Montréal 1976 and his lack of engagement)? Bach too only seems to stubbornly stick to "business as usual" at the IOC.

Being German, I have been able to follow the press coverage of his tenure quite closely. Other than the uncritical public broadcasters (which are dependent on the IOC for TV rights), there has been plenty of criticism of this fellow citizen of ours. Public sentiment in Germany has decisively turned against the hosting of Olympic Games - and, quite frankly, as long as the iron-cast bureaucrats à la Bach are in charge, the Olympic Movement will remain and reinforce its reputation for overladen bureaucracy, profilgacy, overspending, architectural excesses and disrespect for the needs of local communities.

Seriously, I'm so angry at this lack of respect for clean athletes and those coaches who encourage their charges to compete fairly. And that doesn't even start to consider the manner in which the Lords of the Rings have stabbed Messrs Coe and Craven, as well as WADA, in the back. Unbelievable and brazen disregard for enforcement.

There is a proverb in German: "Der Ehrliche ist der Dumme" ("The honest one is the stupid one"). Pretty much sums up the fatal signal sent by Mr Bach. After this, I genuinely hope that Rio 2016 ends in a massive failure. The International Olympic Committee deserves no better. 

Thomas Bach has completely undermined his credibility and the IOC looks pretty pathetic right now but I don't want any of that to impinge on Rio 2016. It's not Rio's fault that all this has been dumped on them for reasons beyond their control. I hope for a successful Rio Games despite all this mess going on around them. Rio and the sporting world deserve as much even if the IOC and Putin do not.

[zekekelso]

1 hour ago, Mainad said:

Thomas Bach has completely undermined his credibility 

Thomas Bach had credibility?

[Faster]

Status Update

Federations have given approval:

Archery

Gymnastics

Tennis

Federations that have either forced withdrawals or removed

Swimming (including all medalist from Kazan 2015)

Weightlifting

Cycling

Athletics

Still waiting to hear what the final decision from the ICF, IWF and UWW which all have regulations in place to ban entire countries for multiple doping offenses

Federations that are being opaque

Judo

[baron-pierreIV]

/\/\  Faster, what do you mean given "approval"?  For what -- to accept all the Russian athletes for thsoe sports?

Where does FIVB stand?  Have been checking their website, but it looks like they haven't decided.  I doubt that FIVB will remove the M&W Indoor teams.  The competition looks formidable with the Russians in there.  

[StefanMUC]

1 hour ago, Faster said:

Status Update

Federations have given approval:

Archery

Gymnastics

Tennis

Federations that have either forced withdrawals or removed

Swimming (including all medalist from Kazan 2015)

Weightlifting

Cycling

Athletics

Still waiting to hear what the final decision from the ICF, IWF and UWW which all have regulations in place to ban entire countries for multiple doping offenses

Federations that are being opaque

Judo

I don't think Judo is opaque. Vlad is IJF Honorary President, no need to say more.

[Faster]

IJF's statement was dodging and opaque. It didn't come out on either side of the question.

[Rob2012]

OK, the Telegraph has a very different take on what could happen....

Quote

 

Up to 90 per cent of Russia’s team for the Olympics could still be banned from next month’s Games, despite the International Olympic Committee’s refusal to expel the entire country from the event.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that the IOC is expecting the majority of the rogue nation’s athletes to fail to meet the eligibility criteria laid down after the decision of its executive board not to issue a blanket ban on them competing at Rio 2016.

...

As well as denying admission to any Russian to have been sanctioned for doping, the IOC will use an independent expert to weed out those considered to have undergone insufficiently rigorous drug-testing in the build-up to Rio.

It was anticipated last night that this process would reduce the Russia team from what would have been almost 400 at full strength to a delegation that could even end up as small as 40.

A cull in the hundreds would go some way to appeasing critics of the IOC’s refusal to follow the lead of the International Association of Athletics Federations, whose outright ban on Russia’s track-and-field team from Rio was ratified last week by the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2016/07/25/russia-olympics-team-could-be-cut-to-40-as-ioc-backlash-grows/

[StefanMUC]

Robert Harting, discus gold medalist, isn't sitting on the fence. He said today: "For me, Thomas Bach is part of the doping system, not of the anti-doping system. I'm ashamed for him."

I guess that also sums up public opinion in Germany quite nicely.

[paul]

I still don't understand what is happening, who is or is not banned....etc. I get the feeling that some athletes will be playing because the IFs don't want to and don't have time to deal with sorting this out at the VERY last minute. Perhaps this was the IOCs intention to create so much overwhelming work for everyone that it allows the Cheating Russians to slip in regardless of their dope records.

IOC = look the other way, dodge responsibility, take not action, overwhelm others with workload, talk about the youth of the world, eat, beat off, go to suck the blood of the next host, get fatter

[StefanMUC]

1 hour ago, paul said:

I still don't understand what is happening, who is or is not banned....etc. I get the feeling that some athletes will be playing because the IFs don't want to and don't have time to deal with sorting this out at the VERY last minute. Perhaps this was the IOCs intention to create so much overwhelming work for everyone that it allows the Cheating Russians to slip in regardless of their dope records.

IOC = look the other way, dodge responsibility, take not action, overwhelm others with workload, talk about the youth of the world, eat, beat off, go to suck the blood of the next host, get fatter

You actually understood very well the IOC's intention.

[LinkParkFn]

Let me be perfectly blunt: I support the Olympic Games, I DO NOT AND WILL NOT support the IOC. If only FIFA, the NCAA and IOC had any common sense, but they don't.

[JMarkSnow2012]

On 25/07/2016 at 6:09 PM, Mainad said:

Thomas Bach has completely undermined his credibility and the IOC looks pretty pathetic right now but I don't want any of that to impinge on Rio 2016. It's not Rio's fault that all this has been dumped on them for reasons beyond their control. I hope for a successful Rio Games despite all this mess going on around them. Rio and the sporting world deserve as much even if the IOC and Putin do not.

Agreed. What I wonder is whether machinations will start, after Rio, to have a fairly nasty clean-up of top IOC management.

 

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

3 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

Robert Harting, discus gold medalist, isn't sitting on the fence. He said today: "For me, Thomas Bach is part of the doping system, not of the anti-doping system. I'm ashamed for him."

I guess that also sums up public opinion in Germany quite nicely.

And he's damn right about that - that said, Harting has never been one to be shy about his views!

[StefanMUC]

2 minutes ago, plusbrilliantsexploits said:

And he's damn right about that - that said, Harting has never been one to be shy about his views!

Yes, but Bach already hit back, check Spiegel Online. I guess he's already looking for ways to ban Harting too.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

1 minute ago, StefanMUC said:

Yes, but Bach already hit back, check Spiegel Online. I guess he's already looking for ways to ban Harting too.

Which will render Bach even less popular than he is - and makes him look thin-skinned. Gut so!

[Rob2012]

3 hours ago, StefanMUC said:

Robert Harting, discus gold medalist, isn't sitting on the fence. He said today: "For me, Thomas Bach is part of the doping system, not of the anti-doping system. I'm ashamed for him."

I guess that also sums up public opinion in Germany quite nicely.

I wish there were more willing to speak so openly. This also from two years ago:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/harting-withdraws-from-athlete-of-the-year-list-1412625704

[Citius Altius Fortius]

... interestingly Back tries to defend the decision of sunday when he replied to the blame of Harting - if he were really sure about the decision he wouldn't have felt the need to defend it...

He is feeling that the IOC has lost all its credibility in concern of sport

Edited July 26, 2016 by Citius Altius Fortius

[Faster]

Quote

Quote

For one, a blanket ban on Russian athletes would likely have been derailed by numerous legal hurdles. The Court of Arbitration for Sport, among others, would likely overturn a universal ban that included athletes who haven't been implicated in doping.

"We were mindful of the need for justice for clean athletes," IOC vice-president John Coates told reporters. "We did not want to penalize athletes who are clean with a collective ban and, therefore, keeping them out of the Games."

Instead, the IOC opted to punt the decision on whether to allow Russian athletes to compete to the 28 federations that govern summer Olympic sports. Those federations are reviewing Russian athletes' records and deciding who can compete in Rio next month. Some, like swimming and canoe/kayak, have already issued their decisions

 

http://olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/full-olympic-ban-russia-never-had-chance.html

That is John Coates being quoted, someone that is widely respected within the sporting community.

The IOC had a choice between a blanket ban, that would likely not withstand a CAS hearing. Or using the CAS precedent for the IAAF rulling to force individual IFs to exclude contaminated athletes. If they went with the blanket ban and CAS ruled against them. It would have left no time for the IOC to force the hands of the IFs. 

I mean what has already been announced is going to CAS as is. And others are trying to get into civil courts. But that won't work because of the jurisdiction issues. Swiss courts won't hear them and any national courts have no jurisdiction over the IOC or the federations. 

[StefanMUC]

There are articles in the IOC Charta that, with a proper reasoning, would have allowed a complete ban and survive a CAS ruling. IAAF managed as well, no?

 

If the IOC had wanted to, they could have gone for it. As for the lack of time: That's also their own making, they pushed the decision as far behind as possible and dumped it on the IFs, who have even less time now. 

 

It's all IOC spin, and I don't buy it for a split second.