Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 hour ago, StefanMUC said: Now I'm curious to see which tricks Bach will play to avoid a complete ban. The IFs still in favour of Russian participation (eg Judo, Table Tennis...) apparently don't mind having their Rio results stained from the start. I can imagine that Bach will say that the single Sport IF's have the power to decide themselves - I just wonder which IF's have a Russian president.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JO2024 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 What's best? Completely ban Russia of the Rio Games, or have some of them participate, win some medals, and be completely destroyed by the media and the whole world. I mean, if some Russian athletes get to participate and win some medals, what would you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 31 minutes ago, JO2024 said: What's best? Allow a few, supposedly "clean" athletes to compete under the Oly flag to show that it's NOT a punitive thing -- and to send the message that if you are clean, then you can compete. However, it is only the IF's who can determine how to fill the ranks removed of Russian, etc., athletes and at the same time, maintain high-level competition. But with 15 days to go before Opening, many decisions are going to have to be made overnight. I don't know why WADA and all these bodies waited until the last minute. They should have all come to a position at least a month ago. Am glad am not involved in the organization of THESE Games. For the 2018 Games, they have enough time to make sure that Russia is properly censured for their great deceit in 2014. However, 2018 will also take place a few months before World Cup 2018, so it will be very tricky how to tell the world why Russia has been punished, yet they are holding the GREAT summer sports event of that year in Russia. I mean FIFA will look like an even bigger fool again that year. And to be followed by the farce that 2022 will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 ^^ Complete ban. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Rob. said: ^^ Complete ban. I'm inclined to agree. It's late in the game, but if you want to be taken seriously, do not allow the Russian flag to enter the stadium and like baron said, allow individual athletes or perhaps even teams to compete as Independent Olympic Participants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, baron-pierreIV said: Allow a few, supposedly "clean" athletes to compete under the Oly flag to show that it's NOT a punitive thing -- and to send the message that if you are clean, then you can compete. However, it is only the IF's who can determine how to fill the ranks removed of Russian, etc., athletes and at the same time, maintain high-level competition. But with 15 days to go before Opening, many decisions are going to have to be made overnight. I don't know why WADA and all these bodies waited until the last minute. They should have all come to a position at least a month ago. Because they (esp. Bach) wanted to play time so a Russian ban couldn'tbe implemented for practical reasons. Re Which IFs are led by Russians - I don't think the nationality matters, but the connections. Vizer (Judo) or the Serbian wrestler wouldn't have their jobs without Kremlin cash, that's pretty much established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker2001 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 hour ago, plusbrilliantsexploits said: Western NOCs should certainly seriously consider boycotting the Rio Games. Disagree. Completely. Boycotts are not going to accomplish anything. Hey Usain Bolt.. we told all of the Russians from your sport that they are banned from competing at the Olympics, but you should take a stand and protest by not competing yourself. Or Michael Phelps.. you're not going to compete in another Olympics, but sit this one out anyway while there are supposedly tainted Russians competing in your sport. I get what you're saying about wanting Rio 2016 to be a failure, but you can't ask athletes 2 weeks out from the games who are focused solely on next month to turn around and not go. That's not going to accomplish anything and the other people who will be hurt by that are the athletes and the Rio. Like you said, the city doesn't deserve to lose out any more than they already have. And to the extent you want the IOC to pay for all this, you can't put that on the Rio organizers and ask them to take the hit if it's not going to mean anything in the long run. I know it's a difficult situation for everyone involved because we're so close to the Olympics, but the Games are going to go on, and for the sake of those with the most to gain or lose from this, let them have it. Punish the guilty and those associated with them. Don't tell the innocent it's on them to fix the problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 I think the IOC will compromise and ban the Russians in the 20 sports implicated. Thus allowing Russian gymnasts to compete. I am really surprised that the two other federations that have rules in place for complete bans, and have used them for Rio, haven't already banned Russia. Just did a bit of digging for team sport replacements Handball: women's team: either Germany as the highest ranked country not competing, or Poland, the next highest non-qualifier in the group. Volleyball: men's team: either Germany as the next best non-qualifier in the European championships, or Germany has the highest ranked team not qualified Volleyball: women's team: either Turkey as the best non-qualifier in the European championships, or Dominican Republic as the highest ranked team not qualified. Synchronized swimming: Canada either as the rightful Pan American representative or the next best finisher at the qualification tournament. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatinXTC Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I'm all for a complete ban, but if the IOC wants to do something shady then they should allow Russian athletes in events where they have absolutely no chance of winning a medal. I think that would be far more embarrassing than a complete ban. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) Breaking: IPC opens suspension proceedings against NPC Russia. Russia set to miss Rio Paralympic Games following McLaren report. Wonder if the IPC going first paves the way.... Edited July 22, 2016 by Rob. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Craven has been a lot more vocal about the scandal in his reaction then Bach and the IOC. So it would make sense that they would have the balls to go through such a move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainad Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 While I believe Russia cannot, in these circumstances, be allowed to participate officially at Rio, I do believe innocent Russian athletes should be allowed to compete under the Olympic flag. I don't believe the innocent should be made to suffer for the sins of the guilty. But what an almighty depressing mess to come on the very eve of the Rio Games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Mainad said: But what an almighty depressing mess to come on the very eve of the Rio Games! The Russians have only themselves to blame for it. They have been cheating for decades. It's only that the East Germans before them were more blatant and of course, the GDR dissolved. So long as Putin and remnants of the USSR-KGB are in power, Russia will forever be a "dishonest" nation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 Maybe his is old news....... Forty-five athletes have failed dope tests after their samples from the 2008 Beijing Olympics and 2012 London Games were reanalysed, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) said on Friday. The results are from a second wave of retests and take the total number of athletes who tested positive for prohibited substances to 98, the IOC added in a statement. Of the 45 failed tests announced on Friday, 30 were from Beijing, including 23 medallists, and 15 were from London. The IOC did not say if any of the London athletes had won medals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 I know I said that ban on Russia from the 2016 games this close would be inappropriate, but I didn't realize the scale to which the doping was going on. I agree with Baron, as long as Putin and the KGB-esque government are still in power in Russia, we can not trust them to play fair, and they should not be allowed to participate in the games. What's the point of having athletes and coaches take an oath before billion of people during the opening ceremony when they know that more than likely the Russian have been doping? With cheating on a national level like this, the only fair and responsible thing to do for the Olympic Movement, and for the athletes who have earned their spot at the games fairly, without the use of drugs, is to exclude Russia from all competition until they prove that they have changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Mainad said: While I believe Russia cannot, in these circumstances, be allowed to participate officially at Rio, I do believe innocent Russian athletes should be allowed to compete under the Olympic flag. I don't believe the innocent should be made to suffer for the sins of the guilty. Unless they've been regularly tested outside of the institutionally corrupt Russian system we can't tell who the clean ones are. A blanket ban is not just a symbolic punishment for Russia. It's the only surefire way of not letting doped Russians in the field. I agree with you that the handful of certainly clean Russians (i.e. those training abroad tested under other systems) should be allowed to compete under the Olympic flag. That is exactly the IAAF's stance too. Coe and co got it right. Can the IOC and other federations? Edited July 23, 2016 by Rob. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 Speaking of doping: Kendra Harrison breaks a dark-ages world record in a year when she has also run the co-3rd fastest of all time. When in the last 10 years only two other women have come within 8 seconds of the dark-ages record. When she couldn't even run a 12.54 at the US trials. Another Genzebe Dibaba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiejie Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Faster said: Speaking of doping: Kendra Harrison breaks a dark-ages world record in a year when she has also run the co-3rd fastest of all time. When in the last 10 years only two other women have come within 8 seconds of the dark-ages record. When she couldn't even run a 12.54 at the US trials. Another Genzebe Dibaba. Possibly doping. I'm sure her samples will be looked at closely. If it turns out she's juiced up, it isn't with the blessing of her federation and her country nor the participation of the anti-doping lab. At any rate, Kendra Harrison isn't going to be at Rio Olympics as she didn't make the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nykfan845 Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Faster said: Speaking of doping: Kendra Harrison breaks a dark-ages world record in a year when she has also run the co-3rd fastest of all time. When in the last 10 years only two other women have come within 8 seconds of the dark-ages record. When she couldn't even run a 12.54 at the US trials. Another Genzebe Dibaba. Is there ANY basis for the accusation? I mean, really, Faster? And what does this have to do with the Russian doping scandal? Edited July 23, 2016 by nykfan845 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekekelso Posted July 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 33 minutes ago, nykfan845 said: Is there ANY basis for the accusation? I mean, really, Faster? And what does this have to do with the Russian doping scandal? This is where we are in Track and Field, and the Russian doping scandal is part of the problem. There's tons of evidence that not only does doping work, but you can get away with it. Just because you've passed some tests means nothing. Any exceptionally fast time is suspicious. And when it seemingly comes out of nowhere? That's plenty of basis for an accusation. Fair? Nope. Neither is banning the entire Russian team. But that's where we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 1 hour ago, nykfan845 said: Is there ANY basis for the accusation? I mean, really, Faster? And what does this have to do with the Russian doping scandal? When you break a record from a time of known rampant doping, there is always going to be suspicion. With how doping is being conducted now, it makes it even more suspicious when you can't even run an average time at a meet you will get tested at, compared to beating a 21 year old world record that no one has touched. This falls into the same category of Dibaba breaking a Ma's Army record a few months ago. When you beat a doped record, being doped to do it is not exactly a logical leap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 Funny she failed in the trials... Anyway, back to Russia: They still have loyal friends. https://mobile.twitter.com/JensWeinreich/status/756164322284281856/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nykfan845 Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) Meh. Show me the receipts. I don't give a **** about speculation. Suspicious is understandable, but you essentially accused Harrison of doping. Has she ever tested positive? Ever been connected to doping scandals before like Dibaba? Nah. My tune will change if that ever happens. And anyways, she's not even in the Olympics because of the brutal one-and-done US trials. So . . .what is the point of even mentioning it in this thread in the first place? Edited July 23, 2016 by nykfan845 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plusbrilliantsexploits Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 A complete ban is the only credible solution. The corruption of sports for political reasons runs deep in Russia - Putin is merely continuing a time-honoured Soviet tradition here. That said, the systematic, persistent and brazen state-sponsored, FSB-enforced doping of Russian athletes is without example in Olympic history and needs to be met with a clear response. I have never had a particularly high opinion of Thomas Bach - he comes across as a thoroughly uninspiring apparatchik who weaseled his way to the presidency, in lieu of being a particularly remarkable advocate for integrity in sport or radical, root-and-branch modernization of the Olympic Movement. That said, he is in charge now - and is therefore in charge of the reputation of the Olympic Games. In a time filled with news about terrorism, rampant xenophobia, war after war and a general corrosion of public trust, the Olympics can be a much-needed antidote to the toxicity of the public mood. However, with the moral hypocrisy of attempting to give Russia a kid's glove treatment (when smaller NOCs would have been summarily banned), Mr Bach is only placing the Olympics in the same sordid enumeration of events that have undermined the international community's wider confidence in institutions, whether political, economic or sportive. Banning Russia completely would be a powerful signal - and would have a huge deterrent effect. So what if some competitions will lack star power? At least they will be cleaner (I'm not naive enough to believe they will be entirely clean), and the lessons will be learnt. Of course, there are legitimate doubts about nations like China and Jamaica as well - and maybe those nations would also be made to think twice. This may not change transgressions of the past, but could certainly have a salutory effect for the future of the Games. Russian intransigence and whining is a price well worth paying for the probity of the Olympic Games and their long-term credibility. Let's hope Mr Bach understands the mould-breaking role he can play - and much praise to Philip Craven for being so vocal, clear and decisive in opposing Russia's state doping. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, plusbrilliantsexploits said: A complete ban is the only credible solution. The corruption of sports for political reasons runs deep in Russia - Putin is merely continuing a time-honoured Soviet tradition here. That said, the systematic, persistent and brazen state-sponsored, FSB-enforced doping of Russian athletes is without example in Olympic history and needs to be met with a clear response. I have never had a particularly high opinion of Thomas Bach - he comes across as a thoroughly uninspiring apparatchik who weaseled his way to the presidency, in lieu of being a particularly remarkable advocate for integrity in sport or radical, root-and-branch modernization of the Olympic Movement. That said, he is in charge now - and is therefore in charge of the reputation of the Olympic Games. In a time filled with news about terrorism, rampant xenophobia, war after war and a general corrosion of public trust, the Olympics can be a much-needed antidote to the toxicity of the public mood. However, with the moral hypocrisy of attempting to give Russia a kid's glove treatment (when smaller NOCs would have been summarily banned), Mr Bach is only placing the Olympics in the same sordid enumeration of events that have undermined the international community's wider confidence in institutions, whether political, economic or sportive. Banning Russia completely would be a powerful signal - and would have a huge deterrent effect. So what if some competitions will lack star power? At least they will be cleaner (I'm not naive enough to believe they will be entirely clean), and the lessons will be learnt. Of course, there are legitimate doubts about nations like China and Jamaica as well - and maybe those nations would also be made to think twice. This may not change transgressions of the past, but could certainly have a salutory effect for the future of the Games. Russian intransigence and whining is a price well worth paying for the probity of the Olympic Games and their long-term credibility. Let's hope Mr Bach understands the mould-breaking role he can play - and much praise to Philip Craven for being so vocal, clear and decisive in opposing Russia's state doping. Very well said. I don't think he's going to go that far though. His first concern is himself, not the Olympic movement anyway. And as long as he's friends with Vlad & al Sabah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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