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Potential 2026 and 2028 bids


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8 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

Much of Oslo's bid was based in Lillehammer/Hamar etc.

I'm starting to think the IOC knows the Winter Games need more help (thus the suspicious request to Toronto to not bid for 2024 etc)...  I could see a time where the IOC chip in considerably more to sure up the Games.

Based on what the IOC is and what they've done, is that something you actually think would happen, even down the line?  They need to loosen requirements for hosting.  To me, that's the logical first step.

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9 hours ago, thatsnotmypuppy said:

Much of Oslo's bid was based in Lillehammer/Hamar etc.

I'm starting to think the IOC knows the Winter Games need more help (thus the suspicious request to Toronto to not bid for 2024 etc)...  I could see a time where the IOC chip in considerably more to sure up the Games.

Only the Bobsleigh and Alpine events were in the Lillehammer area

Indoor events, Nordic events, biathalon were all to be in and around Oslo

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1 hour ago, intoronto said:

Until 2014, no new sport or discipline was added to the sports program where a new venue was needed (slopestyle). So the main cause of concern is the amount of athletes involved, which has almost doubled from 1994. 

-That increases costs for the village, transportation, accreditation etc. 

I know this will get slack, but why not introduce a system where athletes compete one week and leave, with the other sports athletes arriving the next week. This happens at the Canada Games and helps too keep costs down. 

Not slack.  I think you're looking for "I know this will catch flak."  Slack is the opposite.  But I digress..

So you want to tell the athletes when they are or aren't allowed to stay?  And what about team officials.  Media and press.  Besides, how many athletes out there are competing in multiple events spread out throughout the games.  Probably not as many athletes as you think that are only competing in a single event.  Even then, you're going to tell those guys they're not invited to the opening ceremony unless they can go find a hotel?  That doesn't sound like the Olympic spirit to me.  I don't think that's the solution.

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17 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

The problem isn't the Olympics.  The problem is the IOC.  Yes, it would help matters to stop expanding the games and adding sports/disciplines.  But it would help even more if they eased up a bit on the burden they're putting on these host cities.  They know it, but they're hardly willing to do anything about it.

The burden comes from the growth of the Olympics in general rather than the number of sports or events. Adding cricket would not have hurt London, for example, and hosting baseball will not hurt Japan. It is the size of the Olympic village, the constant increase in the media hotel rooms, the corporate hotel rooms, venue size and amenities, etc.

And while there are other big cities out there like Denver or Seattle that can theoretically host the winter games, few of them are actually in the mountains. (Denver is high elevation, but it is actually just outside the edge of the Rockies: it is almost a two hour drive to Vail and three and a half hours to Aspen.) Even if the USOC could convince Seattle or Denver to bid, they would be mediocre host cities.

The IOC can't tell the media of the world to not attend, or their corporate sponsors that they won't get free tickets, or that countries in Africa and Asia won't get to send very many athletes and that the Olympics are going back to their European-based roots.

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1 hour ago, Nacre said:

. It is the size of the Olympic village,

 

Maybe the IOC is hoping that more countries dope up, so they can be banned and boycotted from the next Games.  Voila!  Smaller sports attendance; smaller villages!!

Let's encourage China and Ukraine to also dope up!!  LOL!!

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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5 hours ago, Nacre said:

The burden comes from the growth of the Olympics in general rather than the number of sports or events. Adding cricket would not have hurt London, for example, and hosting baseball will not hurt Japan. It is the size of the Olympic village, the constant increase in the media hotel rooms, the corporate hotel rooms, venue size and amenities, etc.

And while there are other big cities out there like Denver or Seattle that can theoretically host the winter games, few of them are actually in the mountains. (Denver is high elevation, but it is actually just outside the edge of the Rockies: it is almost a two hour drive to Vail and three and a half hours to Aspen.) Even if the USOC could convince Seattle or Denver to bid, they would be mediocre host cities.

The IOC can't tell the media of the world to not attend, or their corporate sponsors that they won't get free tickets, or that countries in Africa and Asia won't get to send very many athletes and that the Olympics are going back to their European-based roots.

2 things there..

1.) The USOC doesn't have to convince those cities to bid.  They have to *allow* them to bid.  Denver moreso than Seattle, who hasn't really shown any interest in a Winter Olympics  Denver has, (yes, I know that whether or not a serious bid could ever get off the ground is another discussion) so had the USOC entertained Winter Olympic bids, maybe there would have been something there.

2.) Would they be so mediocre?  Is Beijing supposed to be some sort of superior host city?  Would Almaty have been better?

This is what Agenda 2020 is supposed to be about (which it's not, since the IOC needs to start believing their own hype before we can believe that, especially on the Winter side).. allowing cities and bids that may have some flaws to be considered in spite of those flaws.  Last I checked, Beijing isn't exactly in the mountains either.  I know it's easier for China to spend billions on infrastructure to try and make that work than it would be in Colorado.

The "burden" I'm talking about isn't just the size of the games.  It's all the demands the IOC places upon the host city that gets piled on top of that.  Again, Oslo is the perfect example of a city that's not in the mountains, but is close enough to make it work.  Stockholm not as much, but those are the types of cities being scared off by the prospect of committing themselves to the IOC, not just to the size of the Olympics.

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10 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

1.) The USOC doesn't have to convince those cities to bid.  They have to *allow* them to bid.  Denver moreso than Seattle, who hasn't really shown any interest in a Winter Olympics  Denver has, (yes, I know that whether or not a serious bid could ever get off the ground is another discussion) so had the USOC entertained Winter Olympic bids, maybe there would have been something there.

Neither city has any interest in bidding, so if the USOC or IOC want them to bid they need to be proactive.

10 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

2.) Would they be so mediocre?  Is Beijing supposed to be some sort of superior host city?

Of course not, but people have been rightly critical of Beijing hosting. Just as they were when port cities instead of mountain cities hosted in 2010 and 2014.

The growth of the winter games means there are fewer and fewer possible hosts. Oslo would be great, but they can't host every time. Even Switzerland would be challenging now, as the Swiss would need to spread things out among several cities.

Edited by Nacre
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8 minutes ago, Nacre said:

Neither city has any interest in bidding, so if the USOC or IOC want them to bid they need to be proactive.

Often amazes me what a very quick search in Google can come up with..

Colorado group seeks lessons from Rio for potential Olympics bid

But no, please tell us more about how Denver has no interest (and try to group them with your city of Seattle, where there ACTUALLY is no interest).  When that is clearly not the case.  If you want to argue that they don't have the means to put together a successful bid, that's something different.  But without the slightest shadow of a doubt, there is interest in Colorado, even if it's not something that's likely to come to fruition.  Forgive the likes of Denver and Salt Lake for not being more proactive when the USOC has given them no indication they're interested in entertaining bids for a Winter Olympics.  The USOC knows the interest is there.  They are the ones that need to reciprocate if a bid were to happen.  Remember Las Vegas and their ridiculous attempt at a 2020 bid without the USOC's backing a few years ago?  That's a city being proactive.  Doesn't mean anything if the USOC isn't interested.  It has to start with them, and again, it's not a lack of willing cities that's preventing them from a Winter bid.

14 minutes ago, Nacre said:

Of course not, but people have been rightly critical of Beijing hosting. Just as they were when port cities instead of mountain cities hosted in 2010 and 2014.

The growth of the winter games means there are fewer and fewer possible hosts. Oslo would be great, but they can't host every time. Even Switzerland would be challenging now, as the Swiss would need to spread things out among several cities.

Every time?  How about once for Oslo (well, twice since they had 1952).  Switzerland hasn't hosted since 1948, so how about once for them?.  That there are fewer possible hosts is just as much a function of the IOC not being as accommodating as it is the growth of the games.  And please, let's not put Vancouver and Sochi in the same category as "port cities."  Vancouver worked without stretching the boundaries of what's supposed to make for a suitable Winter Olympics host.  Beijing is pushing that line.  Sochi, it goes without saying they did.  The IOC should be trying to make these cities and countries work, even if it's not the ideal scenario.  Again, remember the key point here.. the IOC isn't rejecting these cities because they'd be too challenging.  These cities are rejecting the IOC because it's not an organization they want to work with.

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1 hour ago, Quaker2001 said:

Often amazes me what a very quick search in Google can come up with..

Colorado group seeks lessons from Rio for potential Olympics bid

But no, please tell us more about how Denver has no interest (and try to group them with your city of Seattle, where there ACTUALLY is no interest).  When that is clearly not the case.

I was in Colorado (although admittedly not Denver) this summer and don't believe for a second there is any more appetite for the Olympics there than in Boston.

It is also pretty obvious that this was just a political junket. A free vacation in Rio with campaign contributors is hardly a precursor to an Olympic bid.

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Could or should the Winter Olympics be split? To make it a 'snow Games' that can go back to mountain towns like Lillehammer, Aspen or Ostersund, & an 'ice Games' that could be held anywhere with a few suitable arenas - like Vancouver, Munich, even somewhere like London, it's not like you'd need certain geography for that. It seems to me that the need for the ice arenas is what's dragging the games to big cities - partly fuelling the gigantism we're seeing. 

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10 minutes ago, yoshi said:

Could or should the Winter Olympics be split? To make it a 'snow Games' that can go back to mountain towns like Lillehammer, Aspen or Ostersund, & an 'ice Games' that could be held anywhere with a few suitable arenas - like Vancouver, Munich, even somewhere like London, it's not like you'd need certain geography for that. It seems to me that the need for the ice arenas is what's dragging the games to big cities - partly fuelling the gigantism we're seeing. 

The games are already split. Pretty much all moderns hosts have had an ice cluster and a mountain cluster (or two). It's just a matter of how far apart the clusters can be. The farther the IOC is willing to allow, the more cities that can host. 

The ice venues aren't necessarily the problem. If the IOC would get rid of grandiose venue requirements, you could have all the venues in a ski town. Lake Placid hosted down a high school track to make an outdoor speed skating rink. Their skating rinks held 8,500 & 2,000. Go back to allowing that, and you've got a chance at holding the games in a small ski town. Of course, you've got to find 5 star hotels to suck up to the IOC and their VIP.... 

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30 minutes ago, Nacre said:

I was in Colorado (although admittedly not Denver) this summer and don't believe for a second there is any more appetite for the Olympics there than in Boston.

It is also pretty obvious that this was just a political junket. A free vacation in Rio with campaign contributors is hardly a precursor to an Olympic bid.

LOL, appetite.  Yea, we saw what that got Boston.  Bit off more than they could chew and then metaphorically threw up all over themselves.  I don't disagree that this "interest" had an ulterior motive, but it's still pretty disingenuous to group Denver and Seattle in terms of "interest" and pretend they should be grouped together.  And again, if you're arguing that if Denver should be more proactive to show their interest, what's the point in doing that if the USOC has flipped the script and is now soliciting cities (as evidenced by the letter they sent in 2013) rather than asking cities to come to them? 

Bottom line, IMHO, If the USOC indicated they were looking at putting forth an Olympic bid, we would see Denver mentioned in those conversations.  I don't think we'd see Seattle.

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36 minutes ago, yoshi said:

Could or should the Winter Olympics be split? To make it a 'snow Games' that can go back to mountain towns like Lillehammer, Aspen or Ostersund, & an 'ice Games' that could be held anywhere with a few suitable arenas - like Vancouver, Munich, even somewhere like London, it's not like you'd need certain geography for that. It seems to me that the need for the ice arenas is what's dragging the games to big cities - partly fuelling the gigantism we're seeing. 

21 minutes ago, zekekelso said:

The games are already split. Pretty much all moderns hosts have had an ice cluster and a mountain cluster (or two). It's just a matter of how far apart the clusters can be. The farther the IOC is willing to allow, the more cities that can host. 

The ice venues aren't necessarily the problem. If the IOC would get rid of grandiose venue requirements, you could have all the venues in a ski town. Lake Placid hosted down a high school track to make an outdoor speed skating rink. Their skating rinks held 8,500 & 2,000. Go back to allowing that, and you've got a chance at holding the games in a small ski town. Of course, you've got to find 5 star hotels to suck up to the IOC and their VIP.... 

What zeke said.  No one seemed to take issue with Salt Lake's setup or Torino's or Vancouver's.  There are cities left in Euope (i.e. Oslo) where the ice venues and the snow venues are split, but still accessible from one another.  And it's not really even the competition venues so much as the support facilities (media/press, hotels, etc.) that are the problem.  We're probably not going back to the days where a ski town can host, but there can easily be a wider net cast to include a city that's not too far from a mountain range, so long as transportation links the 2.  That's much more important than distance.  It's why Lillehammer worked as well as it did because there were train links from Oslo.  Splitting the games is not going to solve the problem so long as the IOC insists on a long list of requirements from a host city that has no interest in delivering them.

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21 hours ago, yoshi said:

Could or should the Winter Olympics be split? 

 

Why would you do that?  Ask yourself: shouldn't the Summer Games be split between the "black box" sports (the taekwondo, the judos, the table tennis ones (the ones held in a convention center with seating capacities of 5,000- 8,000; and the outdoor ones with overly elaborate set-ups (white water rafting, the BMX events, golf, etc.)?  I mean :wacko: .  The whole point of an Olympics is to find a "sucker" city, command them to fulfill an all-but-impossible, self-bankrupting to-do list, that'll bring everyone together for 17 days.  Where have you been, yoshi??  :rolleyes:

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Personally I'd love to see a Scottish Winter Olympics shared between Glasgow (pop.606,340) and Edinburgh (pop.464,990) which are 46miles apart with more than sufficient accommodation

Transportation

Two international airports at Glasgow and Edinburgh

Two national airports at Inverness and Aberdeen providing closer accessibility to some potential outdoor venues

Good rail and road links

Indoor arenas .... some potential options

  • Curling - Braehead Arena or Emirates Arena (temporary rink), Glasgow .... 4-6,000 seats depending on venue
  • Ice Hockey2SSE Hydro, Glasgow .... they should be able to find space for 6,000+ seats
  • Ice Hockey1 - Temporary Arena, Glasgow - venue to be relocated to Aberdeen and/or Dundee in much the same way as London Basketball Arena might have been relocated ... Aberdeen wish to join the EIHL, Dundee have 3(!!) Ice hockey teams including the Dundee Stars of the EIHL
  • Speed Skating - SECC Conference Centre - (it appears physically possible to squeeze in a rink) or a larger development of the Scotstoun Stadium imitating a proposal for providing a sliding roof on the Insell Speed Skating Centre which would allow for Speed Skating, Athletics (outdoors) as well as rugby with the Glasgow Warriors http://www.vonbeiden.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Eisstadion-Inzell-JSK-SOP-1161x800.jpg
  • Figure Skating/Short Track - new Edinburgh Arena to replace Meadowbank Centre .. both Bristol and Leeds are developing 12,000 seat+ arenas for Concerts etc. and in Edinburgh there could be further usage by the local ice hockey/proposed basketball teams. There has been talk for several years of a new facility in Edinburgh ranging from 7,000seats to 15,000seats and such an event could be an impetus

Outdoors you've got 4 potential outdoor locations

  1. Glencoe (803m vertical) .. 80miles from Glasgow, 105miles from Edinburgh
  2. Glenshee (460m) .... 99miles from Glasgow, 84miles from Edinburgh
  3. Cairngorm (500m) ... 148miles from Glasgow, 134miles from Edinburgh
  4. Nevis Range (538m after a 650m gondola ride to the station base) ...114miles from Glasgow, 139miles from Edinburgh

A sliding track could be built as a centre for British bobsleigh/luge which is one of the few winter sports the British seem to excel at. Either a permanent or temporary ski jump hill could be built using existing technology.

And for the ceremonies you have a choice of 4 stadia with 50,000 seat plus (Hampden Park, Murrayfield, Celtic Park and Ibrox)

The British tend to be fairly good at these multi-event games and there would be a desired legacy.

Of course the weather would always be a question - but as you can see from the current Four Hills Tournament, the Alps are not awash with snow

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I know we agreed to stop instantly shooting down "creative" suggestions, but there's no way in hell you host Winter games in Scotland. You don't have the mountains, the snow or the infrastructure.  And if you get beyond that somehow, you've got a transportation nightmare. The drive up to Glencoe one of the most beautiful drives you'll ever experience... but I can't imagine trying to get an Olympics up there.

Now a SOG? That's another story.  

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6 minutes ago, zekekelso said:

I know we agreed to stop instantly shooting down "creative" suggestions, but there's no way in hell you host Winter games in Scotland. You don't have the mountains, the snow or the infrastructure.  And if you get beyond that somehow, you've got a transportation nightmare. The drive up to Glencoe one of the most beautiful drives you'll ever experience... but I can't imagine trying to get an Olympics up there.

Now a SOG? That's another story.  

Here's the kind way to shoot it down..

The thread title here is Potential 2026 and 2028 bids.  Unless we're talking about Scotland bidding for 2026 (pretty sure we're not), then gromit's post doesn't belong here and instead should go in the fantasy land most of his other posts should be sent to.

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53 minutes ago, zekekelso said:

I know we agreed to stop instantly shooting down "creative" suggestions, but there's no way in hell you host Winter games in Scotland. You don't have the mountains, the snow or the infrastructure.  And if you get beyond that somehow, you've got a transportation nightmare. The drive up to Glencoe one of the most beautiful drives you'll ever experience... but I can't imagine trying to get an Olympics up there.

Now a SOG? That's another story.  

I was actually quite sympathetic to Gromit's post - a Scottish games split between Edinburgh and Glasgow has long been a pet notion of mine. But, like you, summer more than winter, and with a touch of fatalistic reasoning that it's so highly unlikely. For winter I agree with every single point you make - and was so glad you brought up the road north to Glencoe. So, so beautiful. So, so unsuited for the demands of the Olympics - I know it's a single lane in each direction, but even that was just in theory when having to go over the verge at the side any time an oncoming car - much less a bus - had to pass us.

 

I put a Scottish WOGs up there with a NZ or Chile/Argentina WOGs - a nice fantasy idea that many of us would love to see and have expressed so and argued for many times. But so unlikely to ever pass the test of reality.

Edited by Sir Rols
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On 12/30/2016 at 0:10 PM, Quaker2001 said:

Bottom line, IMHO, If the USOC indicated they were looking at putting forth an Olympic bid, we would see Denver mentioned in those conversations.  I don't think we'd see Seattle.

I am NOT arguing that Seattle is as likely or as suitable to bid as Denver. I am arguing that neither will make a bid. Denver may be mentioned by their mayor or by the USOC, but the people there do not want the Olympics. And a mayor of Minneapolis once talked about her city as a winter games candidate, so that shows how much political grandstanding means.

It is Salt Lake City or bust for the USA, and the pool of suitable cities for the winter games is shrinking rapidly due to the need for big ice venues and tens of thousands of hotel rooms to go along with the need for 1,000 meters of vertical drop for skiing.

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1 hour ago, Nacre said:

I am NOT arguing that Seattle is as likely or as suitable to bid as Denver. I am arguing that neither will make a bid. Denver may be mentioned by their mayor or by the USOC, but the people there do not want the Olympics. And a mayor of Minneapolis once talked about her city as a winter games candidate, so that shows how much political grandstanding means.

It is Salt Lake City or bust for the USA, and the pool of suitable cities for the winter games is shrinking rapidly due to the need for big ice venues and tens of thousands of hotel rooms to go along with the need for 1,000 meters of vertical drop for skiing.

That's a different argument than when you first brought up the word "interest."  I told you from the start I agree that Denver isn't likely to put together anything resembling a serious bid (although a lack of ice venues and hotels is certainly not their downfall as they have the city half of things covered, it's a connection to the mountain venues that makes it tough for them to get off the ground).  But again, that's not the same as interest. [Get the swear job because I'm about to say the T-word] You know what city was interested in the Olympics?  Tulsa. I know that was and continues to be something of a running joke him. No one actually believed anything would come of that, but everyone knocking then does not change the fact there was interest.

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12 hours ago, zekekelso said:

I know we agreed to stop instantly shooting down "creative" suggestions, but there's no way in hell you host Winter games in Scotland. You don't have the mountains, the snow or the infrastructure.  And if you get beyond that somehow, you've got a transportation nightmare. The drive up to Glencoe one of the most beautiful drives you'll ever experience... but I can't imagine trying to get an Olympics up there.

Now a SOG? That's another story.  

Scotland does have the mountains ... the fact that the International Ski Federation doesn't hold events there is moot. You could argue the same with South Korea until recently and lets not even discuss Xiaohaituo in 2022 !!!!! Glencoe has 803m vertical, the Nevis Range can possibly be developed to over a 1000m vertical

The Alps hardly has snow at the moment. You can jusitifably argue that Scotland has in fact got currently greater levels of snow. Maybe you should look at the historic record of snow and snow base levels over the last 10 years before commenting?

If Scotland can host the multi-sport Commonwealth Games then it can certainly host the Winter Olympics. If you look to investigate proposals about developing future arenas in and around Edinburgh, you certainly realise this was the case. And in terms of accommodation a combined Glasgow/Edinburgh is more than sufficient.

In terms of infrastructure, The Bridge of Orchy Rail station is less than 13 miles from Glencoe. As for the A82, " The majority of the route is a trunk road and hence managed by Transport Scotland, who view the road as a vitally important link through the Scottish Highlands and beyond" - you'd think this was some sort of dirt track with your comments

I cannot think of any Olympics that did not require a multitude of different investments and in the outdoor sporting facilities this is true but is not one of purposes of an Olympics to 1) have a legacy and 2) (secretly) avoid white elephants - both Outdoor and Indoor facilities have a legacy in terms of usage with no immediate competitors for future facilities use, as do the Indoor facilities which have been built/planned/mooted for several years and are simply awaiting an impetus.

If we can talk of the likes of Lake Placid (too small), Quebec (no mountain of minimum 800m vertical - BTW Scotland has one and potentially two), Stockholm (huge distances between events) Switzerland where both contenders have a sprawling venue plan and certainly this year, significant snow issues ... at the IOC is now slackening the rules of hosting the Winter Games, then all bets are off.

To suggest that Scotland would be able to host a SOG and not a WOG is laughable

 

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12 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

I was actually quite sympathetic to Gromit's post - a Scottish games split between Edinburgh and Glasgow has long been a pet notion of mine. But, like you, summer more than winter, and with a touch of fatalistic reasoning that it's so highly unlikely. For winter I agree with every single point you make - and was so glad you brought up the road north to Glencoe. So, so beautiful. So, so unsuited for the demands of the Olympics - I know it's a single lane in each direction, but even that was just in theory when having to go over the verge at the side any time an oncoming car - much less a bus - had to pass us.

 

I put a Scottish WOGs up there with a NZ or Chile/Argentina WOGs - a nice fantasy idea that many of us would love to see and have expressed so and argued for many times. But so unlikely to ever pass the test of reality.

In the last two years there has been two major projects to alleviate two of the biggest issues on the A82 ... the Crianlarich Bypass (now completed) designed to overcome problems encountered during the summer and Pulpit Rock which was a traffic light bottleneck and where the road has now been widened.

The entire Tarbet to Inverarnan route is now the focus of a 4 possible options consultation to improve this section and reduce traffic problems

I think we say that as a major commercial truck road and not one that goes to know where, infrastruture investment continues without any impetus of a Winter Olympics

 

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