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Ripley

Greece - who should pay?

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What's worse - a failed state in the EU, or paying for Greeks to get further into debt?

Is there hope that Greeks can learn to live within their means after a further bailout or is this just throwing away Eurozone tax payers money on a hopeless cause. I can't conceive of the UK electorate allowing our Government to spend billions bailing out another state with no hope of getting the money back - I have huge admiration for the Eurozone countries for doing this, but its not clear to me that its worth it in the long term.

What do you think? Is this European solidarity in action or just self preservation?

Edited by Ripley

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Euro taxpayers aren't bailing out Greece. They are bailing out the idiot German and French banks that loaned Greece the money in the first place.

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The moment they picked that commie as PM i knew stuff was going to get worse. It seems countries in economic crisis always tend to believe blindly on false prophets like this idiot.


I would feel sorry for Greece if it wasn't for the fact they inflicted this on themselves. They deserve what's going on in their country. Sorry but its the plain truth.

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Euro taxpayers aren't bailing out Greece. They are bailing out the idiot German and French banks that loaned Greece the money in the first place.

Yet German and French banks own a fraction of Greek debt. The vast majority of it is held by the IMF and the ECB. Greece is in this mess of their own making by not enforcing their own tax code, falsifying national financial records to qualify for the Euro and overspending while not investing significantly in their own economy. If Greece was outside of the EU like Iceland was, they would be able to default, write-down significant portions of their debt and get a move on. Instead they are on a pay-day loan treadmill because of German stubbornness to not just let it go. Geopolitically the only reason this is even an important issue is because their is still thinking that Greece is an important ally in any attempts at war with Russia especially since Turkey has become unreliable. With Bulgaria, Moldova and Serbia generally on the Russian side of things in the Balkans, handing over Greece is unpalatable to some.

Edited by Faster
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The moment they picked that commie as PM i knew stuff was going to get worse. It seems countries in economic crisis always tend to believe blindly on false prophets like this idiot.

I would feel sorry for Greece if it wasn't for the fact they inflicted this on themselves. They deserve what's going on in their country. Sorry but its the plain truth.

The ironic part is, no one from the consolidate parties can't resolve the current issues of the economic/financial state of Greece and couldn't find more reasonable solutions. That was the reason of the commie election, mostly because of the key incompetence and lack of awardness of the politicians of the other parties.

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Well I have read that Germany in fact owes Greece over $300 billion for war repatriations from WWII. Now i'm not an expert on this so it could be BS and either way, it's a bit of weak way of repairing the money from their past mistakes.

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Well I have read that Germany in fact owes Greece over $300 billion for war repatriations from WWII. Now i'm not an expert on this so it could be BS

It is

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Well I have read that Germany in fact owes Greece over $300 billion for war repatriations from WWII. Now i'm not an expert on this so it could be BS and either way, it's a bit of weak way of repairing the money from their past mistakes.

There are different legal opinions whether this money is owed or not. It was however opportune for syriza to bring this up again in the whole debate, as if nowadays Greece's problems have the root in German occupation 70 years ago.

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It’s interesting to observe that the Greeks think because they voted for a so called “end to austerity”, that it should just happen because of … democracy. There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about the role of democracy in terms of the relationship between a debtor and the creditor… ie in principle there is no role for democracy -you either pay on the terms being offered or you go bust.

Geopolitically I suppose it’s important for Greece to stay part of the “West”, but I’m not convinced even if they were expelled from the Euro that there would be any appetite among Greeks to leave the EU and join the Russia Sphere – a marriage of financial and moral bankruptcy… If I was Greece I would be spending my time and resources negotiating a controlled departure from the Euro and securing a future outside of the Eurozone, but within the EU… like most of the more successful EU economies in recent years… ahem.

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So now they'll have a referendum (after May 2014 I really hate those :wacko: )

Dear Fellow Europeans,
Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croats, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, French, Germans, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxembourgians Maltese, Dutch, Pols, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes and British,

Please allow me to explain to you what has been happening to my country in the last few months and how a group of left wing fanatic ideologues, extremists and opportunists, allied with racists, anti-Semites and neo-Nazis have been leading my nation towards an economic and political Armageddon.

On January 25, after 5 years of economic recession, two bailout packages by the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), an unprecedented unemployment rate that today exceeds 27% and a significant loss of the average household income, the Greek people (unwisely) decided to vote into power the Radical Left party of SYRIZA. SYRIZA is comprised of Marxist, Stalinist, Trotskyist and Maoist Communists, Anarchists, lots of opportunists without a clear ideology and Socialists, leftovers from the, once powerful, Socialist party of Greece.

Before the elections, SYRIZA exceeded in populism any political campaign in living memory. They literally promised everything to everyone. They took advantage of people’s despair and anger against the traditional, mainstream political parties that are, to a large extend, responsible for the Greek economic crisis. However, in every chance, they confirmed that they would not risk the country’s membership in the Eurozone and the EU. The party’s leader and current Prime Minister, Mr Tsipras, in his teens and early twenties, was a member of the Orthodox-Stalinist Communist party of Greece and has not work a single day of his life.

His coalition government partner is a right wing, extreme populist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, psychopathic party, the Independent Greeks, led by an insane fellow who believes in Chemtrails and other conspiracy theories (I kid you not!). He also believes that Greece can seek financial support from countries, such as Russia, China and Iran.
Before 2010, these parties would barely enter parliament reaching the 3% threshold of the popular vote. Exactly like in Germany in the interwar perion and for the same reason (an economic depression), extreme parties have flourished and populism has triumphed in Greece. SYRIZA became the first party with 36% of the popular vote and the Independent Greeks gained another 5%, giving them a parliamentary majority.

What followed was 5 months of so-called negotiations, during which the Minister of Finance, Mr Yanis Varoufakis, a Professor of Economics, specialized in Game Theory and an endless appetite for personal publicity, changed his position on a weekly basis and proposed to the Eurogroup (the Eurozone Finance Ministers’ assembly) unachievable economic targets for an economy that was back into recession after a trimester of economic growth in late 2014. In the meantime, in Greece, the coalition government increased public spending by hiring thousands people into the public sector. This completely derailed the economy and resulted in a deficit of more than 5 billion euros.

Additionally, there was a widespread media campaign to present the EU, the ECB and the IMF as bloodthirsty monsters that hate the Greek people and wish to starve and humiliate us. A lot of people in Greece actually BELIEVE that this is the true intention of our EU partners! Political parties, politicians, journalists or even regular citizens, like myself, who defend a United Europe and wish us a part of the Eurozone are characterized as “traitors” and “enemies of the people”.

On Friday, June 26, Mr Tsipras, after failing to reach a compromise with the EU and the IMF, called a snap referendum for Sunday, July 5, in which he is asking the people to vote YES or NO to the following question: “Do you approve the technical proposal of the Creditors of Greece (The EU, ECB and IMF) for the extension of the bailout programme?” This proposal, submitted to the Greek government a few days ago, includes reduction of public spending, increase of the VAT and liberal economic reforms. Keep in mind that increased taxation was proposed to our Creditors by the Greek government itself.

The question of the referendum is dishonest and deceiving. The average citizen, misinformed and confused from five months of conflicting information and the anti-European rhetoric of the coalition government, largely unaware of the dire situation of the economy and the consequences of his vote, angry by increased taxes and pension cuts, will naturally vote NO. The actual question that needs to be answered is whether the people want the country in the Euro with reforms or a National Currency without reforms. Of course the coalition government will not put the real question to the vote, they would never take responsibility, they will always blame “the others”.
What the Greek government does with this referendum is nothing less than a political extortion towards the entire EU.

On Saturday, June 27, this extortion was put on a vote in the Greek parliament and won a majority support by the MPs of the Radical Left party, its right-wing populist partner and the far-right racist Neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn (the shame of my country, or at least one of the recent shames). This broad anti-European coalition is officially leading my country into the abyss of extremism, populism, international isolation and bankruptcy. This should not come as a total surprise. Mr Tsipras and many SYRIZA party-members have declared, more than once, that Venezuela should serve as “a model of Democracy for Greece”. SYRIZA recognizes its ideological counterparts in Latin-American Socialist semi-dictatorships.

Mr Tsipras and his party, together with their lunatic partners, deceived the Greek people with false promises and stole the popular vote. They then bombarded the public with a coordinated anti-European campaign of lies. Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.

Please share this message and inform your friends about what is really happening in Greece and what is at stake.

https://www.facebook.com/constantinos.kyriakis/posts/10153517967257975?fref=nf

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:mellow: This was funny until now it's not...The ramifications wont just effect Europe, but the US and UK as well. It will be those two countries that will have to rush in and help when it really turns over for Greece...Meaning Russia walking in and bailing Greece out. All of a sudden Putin has a toehold in the EU.

That just cannot happen. Global economy will have no choice but to dip into recession for a short while. :mellow:

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Tsipras is a coward not willing to take responsibility.

I know lots of Greeks have been hard done by over the last few years and there was no improvement (unlike in Ireland, Spain, Portugal).

But saying No now would be economic suicide, and I don't believe in Putin's willingness to step in, or only for a price the Greeks would soon regret.

Polls seem to suggest a Yes majority though, so hopefully Tsipras and his Varoufakis clown get a slap and have to step down. Though a competent replacement doesn't seem to be available either sadly.

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Remove Greece from the Olympic movement until they act like an adult member of the family of nations. That's what Merkel, Hollande and the IMF should do.

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Remove Greece from the Olympic movement until they act like an adult member of the family of nations. That's what Merkel, Hollande and the IMF should do.

Gosh, remove Greece from the Olympic movement! How ironic would that be? B)

Would the Greeks allow anyone to obtain the sacred flame from Olympia? Would the Olympics be valid without it? ;)

Edited by Mainad

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I honestly think that Greece out of the Eurozone but in the EU with as much help and support as the EU can offer is the best thing for Europe, and the best thing for the Eurozone. As soon as everyone stops pretending they're capable of remaining in the Eurozone and we starting dealing with the consequences or Grexit, the sooner everyone can move on. The EU needs to send in a task force to help the Greeks collect their taxes and begin the political and cultural change the country needs to survive.

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Would the Greeks allow anyone to obtain the sacred flame from Olympia? Would the Olympics be valid without it? ;)

There is the alternate 'eternal' flame at IOC hqtrs in Lausanne which is from Olympia. (This is the flame Samaranch had snatched surreptitiously in 1984 when the Greeks were reneging on sending the flame to LA. ) So, an Olympics can carry on WITHOUT Greece and/or a flame from Olympia.

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Gosh, remove Greece from the Olympic movement! How ironic would that be? B)

Would the Greeks allow anyone to obtain the sacred flame from Olympia? Would the Olympics be valid without it? ;)

Err...wasn't the torch relay a Third Reich invention?

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Does this debt/ Eurozone crisis (not just Greece but the wider malaise) tell us that as soon as the EU gravy train stops for countries that have traditionally received money transfers, all the ideological ideas about European unity fall by the wayside? Suggests to me Europeans need to stop the fairy tales about a shared European ideal and start thinking much more pragmatically about how to make things work properly. That may involve less Europe and more genuine co-operation between nation states.

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The European Union made two key mistakes imo: a. Expanding a lot and adding new countries without a good sense of pragmatism and b. The machinary of the Euro came with huge mistakes and lack of proper changements from all the members. Now, with the current crisis, the advance of the eurosceptics and a partial failure of Angela Merkel in tactical power (As the Spiegel wrote), would have a bigger domino effect after Greece debacle.

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That's why the can't get a 2nd Euro Games going. Maybe they should have promised Euro Games 2 to Greece together with the bail-out pkg; and they would have hit 2 birds w/ one stone!!

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This is why leftards are a cancer. They just need to win once. Only once. That's all they need to **** up everything more than it already is.

Me, coming from a country which was also a victim of rancid populism should know better.

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