Plane Crash in the French Alps

[LatinXTC]

So Lufthansa has come out and admitted they knew of Lubitz's previous medical issues, yet they still kept training him. This for sure will lead to countless lawsuits from victims' families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/lufhansa-knew-of-co-pilots-previous-severe-depression-in-2009/2015/03/31/4db5387e-d7ab-11e4-bf0b-f648b95a6488_story.html

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

So Lufthansa has come out and admitted they knew of Lubitz's previous medical issues, yet they still kept training him. This for sure will lead to countless lawsuits from victims' families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/lufhansa-knew-of-co-pilots-previous-severe-depression-in-2009/2015/03/31/4db5387e-d7ab-11e4-bf0b-f648b95a6488_story.html

Careful there, they knew of one instance of severe depression. Without foreknowledge of this massacre and given the overall picture in the aviation industry, would it appear to the reasonable, outside, dispassionate observer that the Lufthansa Group violated its duty of care to its passengers and personnel?

That is the decisive issue that would be probed in any lawsuit. One instance isn't enough, especially if the Lufthansa Group acted in accordance with internationally recognized and prevalent standards. I'm fairly certain that it would be impossible to prove that Lufthansa violated its duty of care. Bear in mind that its CEO didn't just have that press release sent out without legal counsel by the company lawyers. And any lawyer worth his salt will read and cross-check that statement 2,3 or 4 times before sending it out. Trust me, given that they themselves leaked it, it shows two things: 1) They are excellent at controlling the flow of the story, and evidently have an excellent crisis communications strategy (so, kudos to whatever PR agency is behind that) and 2) They are damn sure that they will not be exposed to any liability for the action of one lunatic - a systemic failure and culture of negligence would have to be proven, and I suspect that won't happen.

So, any lawsuits will either end with an out-of-court settlement well below the thresholds of financial compensation seen in US or even German courts, or be completely dismissed after an examination in court.

[baron-pierreIV]

So Lufthansa has come out and admitted they knew of Lubitz's previous medical issues, yet they still kept training him. This for sure will lead to countless lawsuits from victims' families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/lufhansa-knew-of-co-pilots-previous-severe-depression-in-2009/2015/03/31/4db5387e-d7ab-11e4-bf0b-f648b95a6488_story.html

They probably never tried to hide it. It takes a while to go back and scour old archives; make sure whatever notes in there are authenti; are in context, etc., etc. Then they have to run things first by Legal counsel before releasing the info in public, i.e., would they also be in violation of the patient-physician-confidentiality statutes of the land, etc.?).

They're NOT stupid ya know. You are soooo rash to always make snap judgments.

[Mainad]

So Lufthansa has come out and admitted they knew of Lubitz's previous medical issues, yet they still kept training him. This for sure will lead to countless lawsuits from victims' families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/lufhansa-knew-of-co-pilots-previous-severe-depression-in-2009/2015/03/31/4db5387e-d7ab-11e4-bf0b-f648b95a6488_story.html

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh about this but it seems common sense to me that if any pilot has been treated for depression within, say, the last 5 years or so, he shouldn't be allowed to fly or put in a position where he could be a danger to the lives of others. That Lufthansa now admits they KNEW about Lubitz's mental problems all along is a bit of a damning indictment of them and a wake-up call, if any more is needed, that airline policy on depressed pilots must change to reflect passenger concerns and protect the lives of innocent people. International law must back them up on this. There just cannot be a repeat of this type of incident whereby one lone pilot sitting alone in the cockpit allows his mental problems to compel him to kill himself and murder everybody else along with him!

If Lufthansa and the airline industry want to restore passenger confidence in its safety procedures regarding their most senior staff anytime soon then they must act quickly along the lines I have suggested!

[Faster]

Isn't that being too hard on people that suffered from depression? If someone is actively going through cycles of maniac and depressed states then they should be kept from all high risk jobs. But to completely dismiss someone for their entire life because they suffered from a mental illness in the past is unethical. It would create a society where anyone with a mental illness is ostracized and would dramatically reduce any benefits to getting treatment and makes recovery rather pointless. In a climate like that the actions you saw that lead to this crash would happen more often as people would try to hide any mental health diseases and there would be serious consequences to wider society for this. Western countries already have an epidemic of negative effects from the poor understanding, mistreatment and neglect of people that suffer from mental illness and making it more difficult to rejoin society in any capacity would dramatically increase the problems we already see.

This crash is not just the action of one man but society at large that treats people with mental illnesses as lesser, weak and shameful. Instead of making the lives of people that suffer more difficult, making it more shameful to suffer and making it more difficult to want to reach out and get help the lesson that needs to be taken from this is that mental illness needs to come into the light. It needs to be taken seriously as a disease that people have no control over if they are victims of it or not.

Depression alone cannot explain this action as well. Depression leading to suicide usually is done alone. This has elements of megalomania and narcissism that go beyond depression into other personality disorders that were clearly not diagnosed.

[LatinXTC]

Careful there.

I'll be as careful as Lufthansa was at handling his condition!

[baron-pierreIV]

Depression alone cannot explain this action as well. Depression leading to suicide usually is done alone. This has elements of megalomania and narcissism that go beyond depression into other personality disorders that were clearly not diagnosed.

Indeed, plus probably wanting to redress some perceived slight he felt that Lufthansa might have caused him. "I'll show 'em."

[Mainad]

Isn't that being too hard on people that suffered from depression? If someone is actively going through cycles of maniac and depressed states then they should be kept from all high risk jobs. But to completely dismiss someone for their entire life because they suffered from a mental illness in the past is unethical. It would create a society where anyone with a mental illness is ostracized and would dramatically reduce any benefits to getting treatment and makes recovery rather pointless. In a climate like that the actions you saw that lead to this crash would happen more often as people would try to hide any mental health diseases and there would be serious consequences to wider society for this. Western countries already have an epidemic of negative effects from the poor understanding, mistreatment and neglect of people that suffer from mental illness and making it more difficult to rejoin society in any capacity would dramatically increase the problems we already see.

This crash is not just the action of one man but society at large that treats people with mental illnesses as lesser, weak and shameful. Instead of making the lives of people that suffer more difficult, making it more shameful to suffer and making it more difficult to want to reach out and get help the lesson that needs to be taken from this is that mental illness needs to come into the light. It needs to be taken seriously as a disease that people have no control over if they are victims of it or not.

Depression alone cannot explain this action as well. Depression leading to suicide usually is done alone. This has elements of megalomania and narcissism that go beyond depression into other personality disorders that were clearly not diagnosed.

I did not say that anybody who has ever suffered from depression should be permanently banned from flying. I suggested a possible time limit of about 5 years. If, in that time, the pilot has not exhibited any signs of recurring mental illness or, more importantly, has not required medical treatment for the condition, then I guess he should be cleared to fly. I understand that there will never be an ideally guaranteed solution to this problem but the airline industry must narrow the options for disaster as tightly as they possibly can. Innocent lives are at stake so anything less will be unacceptable.

[BR2028]

Maybe all new pilots should undergo mandatory mental evaluations?

[Faster]

I did not say that anybody who has ever suffered from depression should be permanently banned from flying. I suggested a possible time limit of about 5 years. If, in that time, the pilot has not exhibited any signs of recurring mental illness or, more importantly, has not required medical treatment for the condition, then I guess he should be cleared to fly. I understand that there will never be an ideally guaranteed solution to this problem but the airline industry must narrow the options for disaster as tightly as they possibly can. Innocent lives are at stake so anything less will be unacceptable.

What you say still amounts to the same thing and still creates the situation where hiding the illness to preserve your career comes into matters. He did receive treatment and was cleared to fly over 5 years ago. This entire situation creates ethical considerations that are not easy to deal with. If you exclude someone because of mental illness, a company can open itself up to potential discrimination accusations, if a company goes into monitoring of the situation and something bad happens. The company opens itself up to lawsuits.

Like I said before, this has more signs of an act by someone with a personality disorder then someone that is clinically depressed. Grand actions are not in the general characteristics of a depressed state. This is more than just a suicide. Depressed suicide, especially for males, is executed by firearms or hanging. This tragedy is not just damning on the individual that took this action but on our society and views on mental illness. Something needs to be done but the solution is not going to be some knee-jerk end of the line action but a broader and more holistic approach to treating mental health issues seriously.

[Mainad]

What you say still amounts to the same thing and still creates the situation where hiding the illness to preserve your career comes into matters. He did receive treatment and was cleared to fly over 5 years ago. This entire situation creates ethical considerations that are not easy to deal with. If you exclude someone because of mental illness, a company can open itself up to potential discrimination accusations, if a company goes into monitoring of the situation and something bad happens. The company opens itself up to lawsuits.

Like I said before, this has more signs of an act by someone with a personality disorder then someone that is clinically depressed. Grand actions are not in the general characteristics of a depressed state. This is more than just a suicide. Depressed suicide, especially for males, is executed by firearms or hanging. This tragedy is not just damning on the individual that took this action but on our society and views on mental illness. Something needs to be done but the solution is not going to be some knee-jerk end of the line action but a broader and more holistic approach to treating mental health issues seriously.

I have no doubt you are right about the way society has viewed mental illness but until society gets it sorted out I'm afraid I won't feel entirely confident getting on a plane again until the airline can assure me that pilots currently undergoing treatment for mental illness of any kind are kept clear of the cockpit. I'm sorry, it's just common sense. I view any restriction on a mental patient's right to fly as the lesser evil compared to the potential threat to hundreds of innocent lives on board the plane he is flying. Andreas Lubitz is not the first pilot to crash his plane while suffering from mental illness and he won't be the last unless the industry tightens up its procedures in these cases.

[Quaker2001]

Let's pull some of the important lines from that article in the Washington Post, shall we..

Under European aviation law, pilots with active and untreated cases of depression are prevented from flying. But if deemed medically cured, there may have been no legal impediment for Lubitz to continue his training and obtain his license, experts say.

However, pilots who have attempted “a single self-destructive act” — such as suicide — are legally barred from commercial flying. Also, pilots who are taking psychotropic medications — such as popular antidepressants — as part of their therapy, for instance, have some limitations, including a stipulation that they not be alone in the cockpit.

German prosecutors said Monday that Lubitz had suffered from “suicidal tendencies” for which he was treated over an extended period. The prosecutors said that the treatment occurred before he was issued a pilot’s license and that they had found no indications that he was recently suicidal.

This isn't about depression. That's a serious issue, but not one that should prevent a person from flying for the rest of his life. However.. this goes beyond that. Doctors had seemed him unfit to fly an airplane, but he didn't disclose that to his airline. To me, that's the big problem here. Not whether or not someone who was once treated for depression should be allowed in a cockpit.

I agree with Faster that it shouldn't be so black-and-white as to say that someone who has suffered from depression can't be a pilot. That wouldn't have occurred to any of us before this incident, so let's not react to the immediacy of the situation and think otherwise. However, I do agree with Mainad that they do need to tighten up some of the rules on this one. If a pilot is self-reporting these issues, that's a problem for me as well if there are laws that say those being treated for depression can't be pilots for commercial airlines until they are cleared by a doctor (which may or may not be the case here)

[baron-pierreIV]

I think Lubitz got possessed by demonic forces in order to accomplish his mission -- and of course, I mean that figuratively. I bet if one did a chart on his horoscope, one will find a "dark cloud" over his lifeline.

So tragic.

[plusbrilliantsexploits]

Turns out that the second black box only confirms that the act was premeditated, as does his search history on the tablet they confiscated from his home...Not a suicide, but murder in plain sight.