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IOC, Almaty 2022 Complete Intensive Meetings, PM Absent

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I guess you failed to read my post in reply to you in which I discussed in detail several aspects of the evaluation. :rolleyes:

In Darcy's defense here, and how many times have we seen this on GB.. his is a statement of opinion. He tried to clarify that. It's where everyone else treats it like a statement of fact and demands "proof" or "evidence" (which is odd, I didn't know Athensfan was back posting on here :lol:) that this all falls apart. What Darcy is saying (correct me if I'm wrong here) seems to be based on personal intuition and a gut instinct that something is not right. And I can relate to that; I've certainly made arguments the same way and I'll defend them for no other reason than that I believe them to be true, even without some sort of burden of proof. Now I've said to you before that if these instincts/intuition are based on nothing more than that you can't believe the scores that Beijing got, well then you don't necessarily have a case to say things were manipulated. It's like making the assumption when there's a bad call or a bad judgment in a sporting event that the official is biased. It's certainly happened before, but often times the best explanation is that he didn't see things the same way and, right or wrong, that's how he called it. I get what you're saying that some of the numbers don't make sense. Just keep in mind that when you talk about the scores being "manipulated," now you're taking this to the next level where you're essentially accusing the IOC of shady business. Maybe you're right, but to me, that part of the equation on it's own doesn't necessarily add up because what's the point?

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In Darcy's defense here, and how many times have we seen this on GB.. his is a statement of opinion. He tried to clarify that. It's where everyone else treats it like a statement of fact and demands "proof" or "evidence" (which is odd, I didn't know Athensfan was back posting on here :lol:) that this all falls apart. What Darcy is saying (correct me if I'm wrong here) seems to be based on personal intuition and a gut instinct that something is not right. And I can relate to that; I've certainly made arguments the same way and I'll defend them for no other reason than that I believe them to be true, even without some sort of burden of proof. Now I've said to you before that if these instincts/intuition are based on nothing more than that you can't believe the scores that Beijing got, well then you don't necessarily have a case to say things were manipulated. It's like making the assumption when there's a bad call or a bad judgment in a sporting event that the official is biased. It's certainly happened before, but often times the best explanation is that he didn't see things the same way and, right or wrong, that's how he called it. I get what you're saying that some of the numbers don't make sense. Just keep in mind that when you talk about the scores being "manipulated," now you're taking this to the next level where you're essentially accusing the IOC of shady business. Maybe you're right, but to me, that part of the equation on it's own doesn't necessarily add up because what's the point?

Shady business sounds extreme. And when I said manipulated suddenly FYI turned it into "downright deciept". It comes down to how severe you think the word manipulated is. A quick google definition (I know that sounds a year 5 student) says manipulated means "handle or control (a tool, mechanism, information, etc.) in a skilful manner.". Or "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously.". And i've said this. I believe the IOC anticipated Oslo would drop out and wanted to make the evaluation scores look like they had a clear frontrunner instead of 2 cities with pretty average scores. Beijing definitely should have scored lower in a variety of areas. Not everyone is going to believe this. But surely everyone has to agree at least that the environment score was ridiculously high for Beijing. 8.0-9.0 for a city with one of the worst air pollution in the world..

But I well and truly don't want to argue again with FYI.

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Well, you can't make accusations that the IOC gave wrong scores to Beijing, without proof. Whether it's opinion or fact, there is no evidence that the IOC done that.

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I think what Kazakhstan Government doing now over the anti Gay laws being pass the Senate things are not looking good for Kazakhstan to get this do the IOC want another bad PR after what happen in Sochi, What the Senate done in Kazakhstan was the kiss of death to the Almaty 2022 bid. Beijing China despite the protest of Free Tibet and environment issue I think Beijing will be a better city then Almaty to host the 2022 Winter Games, Pretty much all the Winter Sporting powers apart from Russia have protections for Gay people and the winter world is becoming more and more Gay Friendly it will be foolish to pick Almaty Kazakhstan.

I wish time will hurry up too July 31st and put a end to this bad bidding race and just give Beijing China the 2022 Winter Games.

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In Darcy's defense here, and how many times have we seen this on GB.. his is a statement of opinion. He tried to clarify that. It's where everyone else treats it like a statement of fact and demands "proof" or "evidence" (which is odd, I didn't know Athensfan was back posting on here :lol:) that this all falls apart.

Just keep in mind that when you talk about the scores being "manipulated," now you're taking this to the next level where you're essentially accusing the IOC of shady business.

There's quite a difference though, between asking for "evidence" on hypothetcal intangibles, like; New York & Chicago most likely are/aren't going to bid for 2024 (like Athensfan use to incessantly do in that case), & actually accusing someone of manipulation. While I myself haven't necessarily asked for such proof, I can see where PBE would ask for it, bcuz when someone directly accuses, the 'burden of proof' lies with the accuser.

And yes, while darcy has tried to "clarify" his position, well, but so have all we, i.e. "none of us are saying that Beijing's bid is somehow superior, etc". We've acknowledged all of their flaws but somehow he just wants to keep coming back at some of us, me especially (& at times very abrasively & patronizing); like; "you're just sticking your head in the sand"). And that's really how the discussion starts to deteriorate IMHO. It then seems to become personal at that point.

Shady business sounds extreme. And when I said manipulated suddenly FYI turned it into "downright deciept". It comes down to how severe you think the word manipulated is. A quick google definition (I know that sounds a year 5 student) says manipulated means "handle or control (a tool, mechanism, information, etc.) in a skilful manner.".

But I well and truly don't want to argue again with FYI.

While I don't want to argue with you again, either. Seriously. But since Quaker wanted to stir this topic back up,

I don't necessarily take manipulation to be anything but a negative in the context that you're intending to use it. Especially when you go on with "how could the IOC give Beijing such high scores in these areas, & give Almaty lower scores in areas where they scored higher in the 2014 preliminary. It's just laughable, etc, etc". To me, in that context, that does sound like deceit &/or 'shady business'.

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I think what Kazakhstan Government doing now over the anti Gay laws being pass the Senate things are not looking good for Kazakhstan to get this do the IOC want another bad PR after what happen in Sochi, What the Senate done in Kazakhstan was the kiss of death to the Almaty 2022 bid. Beijing China despite the protest of Free Tibet and environment issue I think Beijing will be a better city then Almaty to host the 2022 Winter Games, Pretty much all the Winter Sporting powers apart from Russia have protections for Gay people and the winter world is becoming more and more Gay Friendly it will be foolish to pick Almaty Kazakhstan.

I wish time will hurry up too July 31st and put a end to this bad bidding race and just give Beijing China the 2022 Winter Games.

I was actually beginning to root for Kazakhstan before this anitigay **** started happening. And it was mainly due to they have had experience in hosting a winter event on an internaitonal scale compared to Beijing, and also to avoid giving the games to Beijing so as to not give them the insinuation that it was ok that they failed to permanently deliver every promise they made to the IOC for the 2008 Olympics and beyond, especially when it came down to their air pollution control.

BTW forgive me if I sound moronically stupid right now, I just came back from the bar-be-que cookoff at the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo, so I have plenty to eat and plenty to drink to not make complete sense of everything.

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There's quite a difference though, between asking for "evidence" on hypothetcal intangibles, like; New York & Chicago most likely are/aren't going to bid for 2024 (like Athensfan use to incessantly do in that case), & actually accusing someone of manipulation. While I myself haven't necessarily asked for such proof, I can see where PBE would ask for it, bcuz when someone directly accuses, the 'burden of proof' lies with the accuser.

And yes, while darcy has tried to "clarify" his position, well, but so have all we, i.e. "none of us are saying that Beijing's bid is somehow superior, etc". We've acknowledged all of their flaws but somehow he just wants to keep coming back at some of us, me especially (& at times very abrasively & patronizing); like; "you're just sticking your head in the sand"). And that's really how the discussion starts to deteriorate IMHO. It then seems to become personal at that point.

While I don't want to argue with you again, either. Seriously. But since Quaker wanted to stir this topic back up,

I don't necessarily take manipulation to be anything but a negative in the context that you're intending to use it. Especially when you go on with "how could the IOC give Beijing such high scores in these areas, & give Almaty lower scores in areas where they scored higher in the 2014 preliminary. It's just laughable, etc, etc". To me, in that context, that does sound like deceit &/or 'shady business'.

Accusations of saying that the IOC gave the wrong scores, is serious and negative. Like I said, the IOC has no reason to fake any scores, especially in these difficult times for the IOC.

Let's just look at it like this. The IOC doesn't have a record of faking scores. If they did, Almaty would have hosted the 2014 Winter Olympics, Salzburg hosting the 2010 Winter Olympics, Annecy hosting the 2018 Winter Olympics etc. Almaty didn't even make it as a Candidate City for 2014. Beijing has the experience. They hosted the biggest mutli sporting event in the World and the second biggest sporting event behind the Fifa World Cup. Almaty hasn't.

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The majority of the population is muslim. So no big surprise. And before you call me racist, that's how their religion work. I've yet to see a muslim who likes homosexuals.

There goes my support of Almaty, then. Please hurry up and end this terribad race already, IOC.


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I think the IOC should stay away from all of Eastern Eurupe and russian influenced countries for a looooooong time until they stop being so backwards and fucking stupid.

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I was actually beginning to root for Kazakhstan before this anitigay **** started happening. And it was mainly due to they have had experience in hosting a winter event on an internaitonal scale compared to Beijing, and also to avoid giving the games to Beijing so as to not give them the insinuation that it was ok that they failed to permanently deliver every promise they made to the IOC for the 2008 Olympics and beyond, especially when it came down to their air pollution control.

BTW forgive me if I sound moronically stupid right now, I just came back from the bar-be-que cookoff at the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo, so I have plenty to eat and plenty to drink to not make complete sense of everything.

Not bad considering I had like 15 rum & cokes last night lol

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Good grief. I sure hope that you didn't drink & drive then.

I don't drive in general. And yea my cousin and I are not that foolish we took the light rail to meet up with her boyfriend, who doesn't drink at all, to take us home. And the only reason why I even drank that much is it was free all you can eat and drink lol. My first time at the rodeo cookoff and was surprised that it was a very exclusive event in a sense. Anyone can go to the cookoff, but each tent you have to have a ticket to get in that are hard to come by.

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