Berlin To Unveil 2024 Games Bid

[StefanMUC]

I can't imagine Germany saying, "We don't want the Olympic Games because we're afraid they will remind people of Nazism and the Holocaust." It certainly didn't stop them from wanting to host in 1972. I don't see why it would now.

1972 was a bit different from what I read about the motivation (mainly Willi Daume's as the driving force, he as NOC head went to the Munich mayor and convinced him to bid) was that they wanted to bid exactly because they wanted to do it differently and show the "friendly" face of Germany. Eventually, this rather relaxed approach, also in security matters, may have unintentionally contributed to the massacre.

[Tony E Loves Architecture]

Which German City does everybody believe would be the 'Strongest' City IF Berlin and Hamburg didn't announce their intentions and Munich wasn't involved. Which City would have the Best chance other than these 3 in Your opinions? I reckon Dortmund.

Surely the Olympic Stadium in Berlin would need another lot of Renovations and a slight Expansion? I say this, because of those Support Pylons that block some Views on the Top Tier Seating. Also, 80,000 is the usual Capacity of a Modern Day Summer Olympic Stadium and the Olympic Stadium in Berlin has a Capacity of 74,000 Seats. Also, in Hamburg's Plans, are they planning on Building a Brand New Olympic Stadium? I ask this aswell because the Hamburg Stadium only has a Capacity of around 49,000 Seats.

[Rob.]

It was good enough for a World Cup final and a World Athletics Championships. There's no way they'll renovate a stadium that was only renovated (very carefully and artfully imo) a few years ago.

And I don't why you think 80k is set in stone. Sydney and Beijing were much bigger. Athens' was 'only' 70k. The Maracana is not quite 80k either and the Rio athletics stadium is only 60k. There seems to be some flexibility here but even if there wasn't Berlin's 77k would be just about perfect.

[intoronto]

60k is the minimum mandated by the IOC, so Berlin is well above that.

[baron-pierreIV]

Barcelona hovered between 71K+ for the OC and 73K for the competition.

[ofan]

London was 60k for the ceremonies.

[Quaker2001]

Wasn't Athens somewhere in the 70,000 range? And that was for an existing stadium. As Rob noted, since the stadium was recently overhauled, I have to imagine they'd only need minor improvements to be ready for 2024, should Berlin win the bid

[StefanMUC]

Which German City does everybody believe would be the 'Strongest' City IF Berlin and Hamburg didn't announce their intentions and Munich wasn't involved. Which City would have the Best chance other than these 3 in Your opinions? I reckon Dortmund.

This is not even a question that will ever be seriously considered, no matter if it's Dortmund, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Nürnberg or, heaven help us, Leipzig again.

As for the stadium in Berlin...I think I've said it on here some months ago already - if the IOC is not happy with the way the stadium is now in its IAAF Worlds-2009 state, then Berlin shouldn't bother at all with bidding. Of course by the time the Games would take place, a bit of fresh paint here and there would be necessary, but you won't get this stadium changed significantly that soon again, most certainly not because of a couple of thousands of seats missing.

[Athensfan]

The capacity of Berlin's stadium is just fine. I think that's been clearly established.

[Gold Coast Lions]

The capacity of Berlin's stadium is just fine. I think that's been clearly established.

The only things that will probably needs to be done on the stadium is an fresh paint job, New seats and restore the historical ramp on the west side of the Stadium.

[Lord David]

Barcelona hovered between 71K+ for the OC and 73K for the competition.

I thought Barcelona barely made today's 60k mark. Yes, the Official Report states:

"In the new Stadium, the old neo-Classical facade harmonises with the functionality demanded by a facility of this type. To make the building suitable for the Olympic Games it was necessary, first of all, to extend the area available for seating. This was achieved by lowering the arena level by eleven metres and building a lower bank of seating. In this way the seating capacity was increased to 60,000 and a good view of the arena was ensured from anywhere in the stands."

[StefanMUC]

restore the historical ramp on the west side of the Stadium.

Why?

[Lord David]

I'd personally give the whole stadium and surroundings a facelift. Make the concourse fully enclosed with glass paneling (which of course would probably draw much critics), remove the clock with a new one (still analogue) and replace the rings with coloured ones which light up at night.

But that's just me. The idea would be to totally (mostly) remove the connotations associated with the stadium and Hitler and the 1936 Olympics.

[runningrings]

You think converting a historic 30s clock to analogue will remove the connotations associated with Hitler? You make the most bizarre and redundant inferences sometimes....

[binary]

The berlin olympic stadium is one of the most historic structures in, not just berlin, all of germany. It does not need to be bastardized by adding glowing lights, and replacing every nostalgia factor with something superficial. And no you can't not undo the holocaust with a very slight renovation. A little bit late to be trying that imo.

PS: I was typing this as runningrings made his post, but I was mid rant soooo...

[StefanMUC]

I'd personally give the whole stadium and surroundings a facelift. Make the concourse fully enclosed with glass paneling (which of course would probably draw much critics), remove the clock with a new one (still analogue) and replace the rings with coloured ones which light up at night.

But that's just me. The idea would be to totally (mostly) remove the connotations associated with the stadium and Hitler and the 1936 Olympics.

This stadium already had a major facelift before the FIFA WC 2006 and the IAAF Worlds 2009.

The only way to remove connotations to 1936 would be to tear it down completely. And that won't make history undone either. So better find a tasteful way to reflect that history.

[Rob.]

I'd personally give the whole stadium and surroundings a facelift. Make the concourse fully enclosed with glass paneling (which of course would probably draw much critics), remove the clock with a new one (still analogue) and replace the rings with coloured ones which light up at night.

But that's just me. The idea would be to totally (mostly) remove the connotations associated with the stadium and Hitler and the 1936 Olympics.

There's no need to remove the connotations associated with the stadium. Berliners are incredibly open about their city's modern history and it's one of the things that makes it such an interesting place.

And architecurally, it would be almost vandalism to alter the facade to that extent. The recent renovation involved removing every stone tile of which there were hundreds of thousands, numbering them, then putting them back in the same place once the strcture was secure and modernised. It was a very careful and tasteful renovation and the thought of adding coloured lights and a glass facade to it is horrible.

[Gold Coast Lions]

Why?

The Ramp is an historical part of the stadium like the Archers at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum keep the old look on the outside and make it modern in the inside that ramp is the only visible historical part you can see in the inside of the stadium and will make an fine spot for the Cauldron to go and keep the 1936 Cauldron too and have 2 going on like Innsbruck now has 3 of them.

[baron-pierreIV]

I thought Barcelona barely made today's 60k mark. Yes, the Official Report states:

"In the new Stadium, the old neo-Classical facade harmonises with the functionality demanded by a facility of this type. To make the building suitable for the Olympic Games it was necessary, first of all, to extend the area available for seating. This was achieved by lowering the arena level by eleven metres and building a lower bank of seating. In this way the seating capacity was increased to 60,000 and a good view of the arena was ensured from anywhere in the stands."

OK, I sit corrected. I guess I remember reading other reports which must've pumped up the original stats. No sweat.

[mr.bernham]

I'd personally give the whole stadium and surroundings a facelift. Make the concourse fully enclosed with glass paneling (which of course would probably draw much critics), remove the clock with a new one (still analogue) and replace the rings with coloured ones which light up at night.

But that's just me. The idea would be to totally (mostly) remove the connotations associated with the stadium and Hitler and the 1936 Olympics.

It's not like Speers architecture was a terrible thing. Ever been to DC?

All Nazi architecture is is neo-classical on a gargantuan scale. Though it would be cool to see the building get the all glass facade it was planned to have.

The only thing that makes the architecture evil is what it represented. Today I think it represents Germany's ability to change and accept the past, but do so with style and class. That stadium represents more now then the power of the Nazi regime and it is important to understand that.

There's no need to remove the connotations associated with the stadium. Berliners are incredibly open about their city's modern history and it's one of the things that makes it such an interesting place.

And architecurally, it would be almost vandalism to alter the facade to that extent. The recent renovation involved removing every stone tile of which there were hundreds of thousands, numbering them, then putting them back in the same place once the strcture was secure and modernised. It was a very careful and tasteful renovation and the thought of adding coloured lights and a glass facade to it is horrible.

I think some new Olympic rings would be very cool though.

[Nacre]

The only thing that makes the architecture evil is what it represented.

Well, it represented pretty much the same thing as neoclassical architecture everywhere. I guess you can argue that American neoclassical architecture is supposed to emphasize a link to Republican Rome rather than the empire, but then why incorporate Egyptian elements? (IE the Washington Monument copies Egyptian obelisks.) The pharaohs weren't running a republic.

Back on topic . . .

Is the Olympiapark Schwimmstadion still Olympics-worthy, or would a new aquatics center have to be built?

[mr.bernham]

Well, it represented pretty much the same thing as neoclassical architecture everywhere. I guess you can argue that American neoclassical architecture is supposed to emphasize a link to Republican Rome rather than the empire, but then why incorporate Egyptian elements? (IE the Washington Monument copies Egyptian obelisks.) The pharaohs weren't running a republic.

Back on topic . . .

Is the Olympiapark Schwimmstadion still Olympics-worthy, or would a new aquatics center have to be built?

Notice a theme? Some of the greatest empires the world has ever known? Egyptian elements were planned for Post-War Nazi Germany as well. I mean Berlin would have had tons of obelisks and Munich would have had the largest/tallest in Europe.

It is meant to show the superiority or greatness of the said nation and alludes to the idea that the said nation is a descendant of Rome or the other great ancient empires.

I think that Berlin proposed a new Aquatic Center and Velodrome in their 2000 bid.

[StefanMUC]

I think that Berlin proposed a new Aquatic Center and Velodrome in their 2000 bid.

Both were built. The Aquatics Center hosted the 2002 Euro Champs, but for this year's edition also in Berlin, swimming events were held in a mobile pool inside the velodrome because LEN (the European Swimming League) had audience capacity requirements the Aqua Center did not fulfil anymore. For the Olympics, I think a new one would be built.

[zekekelso]

Both were built. The Aquatics Center hosted the 2002 Euro Champs, but for this year's edition also in Berlin, swimming events were held in a mobile pool inside the velodrome because LEN (the European Swimming League) had audience capacity requirements the Aqua Center did not fulfil anymore. For the Olympics, I think a new one would be built.

Wouldn't it be fun if they didn't? We'd have swimming and track cycling in the same building at the same time.

I can't being to think how hard that ticket would be to get.

[DamC]

The responsive thing to do for Berlin would be to use the old 1936 pool and refurbish it, add temporary seats and maybe a temporary roof. No need to plan a spanking new olympic swimming center when they already have one that opened less than fifteen years ago.