2024 thoughts, why not Copenhagen?

[Hansfromdenmark]

Hello

I´m new here on this fantastic forum. I´m from Denmark and is very pationated about sport in generel, and especially the Olympics.

I have just recently found this forum and have travelled trough it the last days, and love the debate about what cities/countrys should get the different sporting events. Let me also start out by saying that English is not my best in written. So sorry for typing errors.

I can see that you have already discussed the Hamburg/Copenhagen news recently which i also think is completely foolish idea... If we should bid with another country it should be Sweden and Malmø so the Whole region around the "Øresund" is a part of the Olympic games. But I can´t see why not Copenhagen should not bid alone for 2024?

I know you all think Denmark is too small etc etc etc. But does size really matter? If the Olympic games is perfectionally hold, and all goes smoothly, does it then matters if the Olympic Stadium has 60.000 or 100.000 spectators? Or the swimming arena has 10 og 20.000 spectators etc etc. Yes Copenhagen don´t have either of those at the moment. But what Olympic games don´t build a new stadium and swimming arena etc? And Denmark could really need a fair athletics stadium and especieally a Water arena! What shall Copenhagen do with the Olympic stadium afterwords? Well, we could hope/try to arrange more athletics games. Even a yearly event. Norway, Sweden and Finland all have yearly events for athletics, why could we not hope so. If we make it for 60.000 it is also possible for national football games that can attrack more than the 40.000 we have in "Parken" today. But a third sport that could use this arena is Speedway! Denmark is a very proud speedway nation, and we yearly have speedway in Parken (sold out every year as far as i know), and with this stadium we could use this for speedway, and maybe more times than just once a year (team cup etc etc). So I think it could be used for different kind of sports also after the Olympics.

Copenhagen and Denmark in generally has hold many internationally championschip in the last years and in the years to come. Let me list some of them up:

World Championschip in Wrestling (2009)

World Championschip in Taekwondo (2009)

European championschip in womens handball (2010)
World Championschip in Track Cyckling (2010)
World Championschip in road cyckling (2011)
World Championschip in BMX cycling (2011)

World Championschip in Curling (2011)
U21 European championschip in football (2011)
European Championschip in Table Tennis (2012)
European Championschip in Swimming (short track) (2013)

World championschip in different boatclasses in different years
European championschip in mens Volleyball (2013)
European championschip in mens handball (2014)

World championschips in many different boatclassees in different years

And the following years we at the moment have:
World Championschip in Badminton (later 2014)
European championschip in BMX cyckling (later 2014)
World championschip in archery (2015)
World championschip in Trampolin (2015)
World championschip in Womens Handball (2015)
World championschip in all Olympic boats (2018)
World championschip in icehockey (2018) (just awarded this)
World championschip in mens handball (2019)

Beside the mentioned championschips there are a lot minor events and World cups etc. And I also want to say that after every event we get a lot af positive feedback for the hosting of the events both from spectaters and athletes and the different international federations. Denmark is organisation wise a very good country who can make good events which will be perfect organized.

Yes, but all of this are not a multi event you will probably say?. And that I´m very aware of. But what multi event should Denmark be the host for? beside the summer Olympic games? We are not in the Commenwealth, or other games. The new European games could be a possibility if it continue after Baku 2015. But it seems like there are not much talking for that?

Where are all the athletes going to live you ask? Well Copenhagen city is growing every year. We are about 1,3 million now, and is growing with 10-20.000 people a year at the moment. Copenhagen needs more homes for the normal family. A Whole new citypart for athlete and for journalist would surely be need for afterwords. And with that growing city more and more sportsarenas for the ordinary people is needed. Because of my bad English i will not go out in detail with every arena for the Olympic, but many of them can be bulid and be rebuld to ordinary use afterwords.

The infrastructure in Copenhagen, and Denmark in generally is about to be perfect. Over the next 8-10 years we are using about 10 billions dollars in new metro, lightrail and faster trains through Whole Denmark. It will be possible to travel for Western Denmark to Copenhagen within 2 hours. The place where I predict the main area for the Olympic village has a trainstation within 1-2 km depending on where in the area you walk to (And also metro stations in the area, and perhaps light rail if we follow my thoughts in detail).

There are 5 minutes from that trainstation to the Copenhagen international airport. Hotels in Copenhagen are about 20.000 rooms, but with Cruiseships (which we have a good harbour for) we can have 20-30.000 more rooms out there. And dont forget within one hour with train you get Odense another large city, and hour more Århus, the second largest city in Denmark. And of course in Sweeden and Malmø 15 minutes away from the main Olympic area is there 5-10.000 more hotels. And with the airport so close it is surely possible to fly in, take a train and within 20-30 minutes after you land you sit on the Olympic stadium. It will also be possible to take a train direct from Hamburg to the Olympic village and walk directly to the stadiums (most of them). And im sure more hotels will turn up automatically also.

Why should it only be big big cities that host? I believe and think that Denmark and Copenhagen could host a perfect organized Sommer Olympic games. And for fewer Money then most of the upcoming cities around the World who just pump billions and billions to prove they can look good to the World. Denmark is a fairy tale country (With HC Andersen in mind) and energywise leading within windpower and could market this Olympic games as a fairy tale Olympic games with green invorement, public transport with green energy etc etc etc. I really believe it is possible. Why shouldn´t it be?

To make up for the ongrowing larger and larger scale, it is about time to stop op, and show the World a bit smaller games (not fewer sports or athletes) you can still make an extradinary games to show the World and give the spectaters a lot of good experiences.

So why not? Shoot me down why should Copenhagen and Denmark not make this happen? Also Denmark was one of the European countries who gets best out of the Financial crises...

And 2024 is the perfect timing for Denmark in many ways. And I am sure 2024 is going to Europe, after 2 times away if there comes a fair bid. The Southern Europe don´t have the Money at all. So in my opinion there is Germany (Hamburg or Berlin) and Paris to compete with, if they apply. One bad thing could be if Oslo get Winter 2022, then I don´t think they will go to Scandinavia again, but perhaps?

Kindly regards
Hans From Denmark

[StefanMUC]

Welcome here! You're passionate indeed, it seems, but I fear a European Games is the best you can hope for (and CPH would be great for it).

Summer Games have grown so big that a country with less people than any of the four most recent/future host cities would struggle in terms of size and legacy. And the Rogge "doctrine" of cities needing at least 2.5m people sounds reasonable. You'd probably get there taking Malmö/Helsingborg into account, but the IOC still has enough single-nation options for summer, they might be more inclined to multinational bids in winter, but that's not on the agenda for DK anyway, I guess.

[zekekelso]

Interestingly, we were discussing Copenhagen recently, as one of the Hamburg politician suggested a joint Hamburg / Copenhagen bid. Not gonna happen, but fun to think about.

[mr.bernham]

Very passionate and you make an interesting argument. I thin CPH could certainly host more events in the future and from the looks of things many are planned. However I think a YOG or a European games would be your best bet for the time being. Like Stefan said, the games have grown massively in the past and it is becoming increasingly harder for traditional European cities like Amsterdam of CPH to host.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Hej Hans, velkommen!!!

Great to see a Danish guy here on the boards. I spent a week in København for the Eurovision Song Contest (and I had been in Malmö for the Eurovision Song Contest last year). I had been in London for the whole time of the Olympic Games and I watched a lot of events.

I have no doubt that the Danish people would be a great host - I can imagine some wonderful venues in København for different sports (like Rosenborg Slot for dressage or Beach Volleyball; an aquatic centre close to the spectacular Opera at the water; or an Olympic Park with several venues on Refshaleøen; or an Olympic Park close to Ørestad station.

I think the most difficult thing for a København bid is the the number of venues - you would require for Summer Olympics for example:

1 stadium for 80,000

1 aquatic centre for 15,000

8 arenas for more than 10,000

3 arenas for less than 10,000

I wouldn't rely on Malmö Arena or Scania, since joint bids are not allowed by the IOC at the moment - Odense and Århus are easily to reach by train or by car, but in my point of view you shouldn't include them, since you have to bear in mind the huge number of persons (athletes, coaches, officials, referees and visitors), who have to get from their accommodation to the venue and back or from one venue to another venue at different times in different directions you need more than one railway track resp. motorway link between Jylland, Fyn and Sjælland.

You will even have problems with the current public transportation system in Copenhagen. In my point of view you won't have a problem with the metro system, but with the S-tog system (not because of the wagons - they are fantastic), but with the central track between Valby and Hellerup, because of the same reason, what I have already mentioned about the link between Jylland and København.

Interestingly, we were discussing Copenhagen recently, as one of the Hamburg politician suggested a joint Hamburg / Copenhagen bid. Not gonna happen, but fun to think about.

It was the other way round the mayor of Copenhagen suggested a joint Hamburg/Copenhagen bid during a speech, which he held in Hamburg.

[woohooitsme83]

Despite the issues, Copenhagen would still be a better idea than a Perth 2024 'lympics, IMO

(sorry GCL!)

[Nacre]

To me the accommodations are the biggest problem for almost any bid.

10,000 - 25,000 security personnel (Sochi had over 40,000)

20,000 - 25,000 media personnel for summer games

11,000 athletes for 2012 summer games

Add in housing for the IOC, referees and facility workers on top of that.

Even if Copenhagen had a use for all the stadiums and arenas, it would have to build housing for at least 30,000 people (at the bare minimum) to host.

[woohooitsme83]

Solution: Build an Olympic island to accommodate capacity issues, such as housing, stadia capacity, etc.

Denmark has money, right?

[StefanMUC]

Solution: Build an Olympic island to accommodate capacity issues, such as housing, stadia capacity, etc.

Denmark has money, right?

They can use the ex-shipyard turned "Eurovision Island" for that...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refshale%C3%B8en,_Copenhagen

:-)

[mr.bernham]

So who wants to make the pitch?

[Gold Coast Lions]

Despite the issues, Copenhagen would still be a better idea than a Perth 2024 'lympics, IMO

(sorry GCL!)

I know Perth will not be ready in 10 years to host the Olympics and Paralympics Games but in 20 years it will be ready to host an Summer Olympics and Paralympics Games I'm an realist, But Copenhagen is way to small for an Olympics Games and does not have the same growth rate as Perth does. Copenhagen would be great to host the Euro Games and Youth Games.

[Hansfromdenmark]

Thanks for the debate.

I have to ask the question... WHY is it so important that the city is big? What are the needs for the city to have 2,5 million in stead of 1,5 million? Is it because of the fear of fewer spectators? I don´t believe that will be the case at all. So why does there have to be 1 million more?

And WHY does there hos to be a stadium to 80.000? Why is 60.000 not enough? Again why does it have to be so big? (Rio Olympic stadium is only 60.000). You all keep saying like the games has grown to big... But it is not like the number of athletes has grown with many thousand. I think the reason the games has grown big is because the host-city everytime has to try and be bigger than the last game. But is there really a reason for that? Or is it just the host citys ego that has to be supplied... I still believe it is possible for fewer money to make an fairy tale games that everybody loves.

That said I would love a map where you could put a pin in a place and a circle around and see the number of inhabitants. For do you go 80 km around Copenhagen you are on the plus side of 3 million people. So i would love to see the same for Berlin and Hamburg for an example. It is hard for me to find out how many city area around the cities that are not a part of them, it is easier for me here in Denmark where i know it.

Regarding "Refshaleøen" that hosted the song contest it is not near big enough to host a whole Olympic village, and the transportation options for that area is hopeless, and would cost way to much. Perhaps it could be used as one arena, as well as it did for the song contest, i could imagine boxing or something who needs a small arena for the athletes. But it will not be easy logisticly.

Again thanks for the debate.

Kindly regards
Hans

[Athan]

They can use the ex-shipyard turned "Eurovision Island" for that...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refshale%C3%B8en,_Copenhagen

:-)

I was also thinking of the Eurovision Island. I had read there were plans for it to become some sort of Olympic Park of the ESC, but I'm afraid none of that really happened in the end. It could be a good place to build an Olympic Park with all the missing sports venues, and having the sea so close could give great pictures of the canoeing/rowing/sailing competitions with the Olympic Stadium in the background.

As for the stadium capacity, I don't know what's the required minimum capacity, but I remember the Madrid 2020 stadium being criticised because its 65000 seats were very few.

[Athan]

Regarding "Refshaleøen" that hosted the song contest it is not near big enough to host a whole Olympic village, and the transportation options for that area is hopeless, and would cost way to much. Perhaps it could be used as one arena, as well as it did for the song contest, i could imagine boxing or something who needs a small arena for the athletes. But it will not be easy logisticly.

Do you know if it could be possible to build the Olympic Park in the island's surroundings at least? Its location looks perfect, but you're right about transport. There were complaints during the ESC about how difficult it was to get there.

[FYI]

I have to ask the question... WHY is it so important that the city is big? What are the needs for the city to have 2,5 million in stead of 1,5 million? Is it because of the fear of fewer spectators? I don´t believe that will be the case at all. So why does there have to be 1 million more?

Former president Jacques Rogge is the one that came up with the 2.5 million metro mark as the "minimum". It's not so much the fear of 'fewer spectators', but the amount of already well established infrastructure that much larger cities have (quality accommodations, transport links, big airports, etc), to comfortably accommodate a 21st century Summer Olympics. And even then, it's still a big challenge for these big cities. So what more could really be expected from much smaller locales.

And WHY does there hos to be a stadium to 80.000? Why is 60.000 not enough? Again why does it have to be so big? (Rio Olympic stadium is only 60.000). You all keep saying like the games has grown to big... But it is not like the number of athletes has grown with many thousand. I think the reason the games has grown big is because the host-city everytime has to try and be bigger than the last game. But is there really a reason for that? Or is it just the host citys ego that has to be supplied... I still believe it is possible for fewer money to make an fairy tale games that everybody loves.

Rio's athletic stadium (Joao Havalenge) is 60,000. But the stadium where the Opening & Closing ceremonies will take place (the refurbished Maracana) seats 90,000. And that's a big ticket item that generally generates quite a bit of revenue for the organizers.

And I wouldn't necessarily say that hosts try & 'bigger' the last Games. London 2012 didn't do that, despite the extravagance that was Beijing 2008. And while PyeongChang 2018 still won't be cheap, it's not gonna be anywhere near that was the obscenity of Sochi 2014. And yes, it's still possible to have great Games with much less expense. But the real question lies, is the IOC really interested in such a thing. They might say that they are, but until they put their money where their mouth is, such a concept is still a 'fairy tale', for the time being.

[Quaker2001]

So why not? Shoot me down why should Copenhagen and Denmark not make this happen? Also Denmark was one of the European countries who gets best out of the Financial crises...

And 2024 is the perfect timing for Denmark in many ways. And I am sure 2024 is going to Europe, after 2 times away if there comes a fair bid. The Southern Europe don´t have the Money at all. So in my opinion there is Germany (Hamburg or Berlin) and Paris to compete with, if they apply. One bad thing could be if Oslo get Winter 2022, then I don´t think they will go to Scandinavia again, but perhaps?

Kindly regards

Hans From Denmark

Hans.. I admire your passion on this one, but the better question to ask is "Why Copenhagen?" As others have pointed out, hosted an Olympics is an expensive endeavor, one that requires a lot of use of public money and public resources. We've already seen 1 of your Northern European neighbors get scared off at the prospect of hosting a Winter Olympics (much less costly than the Summer version, Sochi notwithstanding), another one could soon fall by the wayside. So for a city and a country as small as Denmark to pursue a Summer Olympics, it may be too much for them to handle. If they are to build all the infrastructure that is needed, will that be a good investment for the city, or is it going to be like Athens with a lot of venues sitting unused after the games are over, all having been built at great expense to the economy.

As others have noted, the reason it takes a large enough city/country to host is that you're talking about dozens of venues (not to mention accommodation for tens of thousands of athletes and media members, not to mention hundreds of thousands of spectators), all active at the same time condensed into a 2 1/2 week period. That's a tall order for much larger cities to handle. You mention all the events Copenhagen has hosted. Not imagine all of those events being held in Copenhagen at once, all requiring their own venue, with a large number of spectators and athletes and media there to cover them. That's what an Olympics requires.

The argument has been made here many times about smaller cities hosting. A city like Copenhagen could pull off a successful Olympics. But how do they sell themselves to the IOC? If Copenhagen offers a 60,000 seat stadium and another offers 80,000 seats, which do you think the IOC will favor? More spectators to watch the events which means more tickets sold and more revenue. Therein lies the problem for Copenhagen.. can they justify a larger stadium or is it going to be an unnecessary expense? As I point out often here.. this is a competition. The IOC is going to choose the city they believe is best suited for them to host the Olympics. And more often than not, a larger more prominent city is going to be a more suitable host than a city that is smaller and has lesser needs once the games are over.

[Nacre]

You all keep saying like the games has grown to big... But it is not like the number of athletes has grown with many thousand.

It's not the number of athletes but the number of officials, security, television crews, etc that have grown.

ATHLETES

Barcelona 1992: 9,356

Atlanta 1996: 10,318

Sydney 2000: 10,651

Athens 2004: 10,625

Beijing 2008: 10,942

London 2012: 10,568

MEDIA PERSONNEL

Barcelona 1992: 13,000

Atlanta 1996: 15,000

Sydney 2000: 16,000

Athens 2004: 21,500

Beijing 2008: 24,500

London 2012: 21,000

[FYI]

I'm a realist,

:lol:

[zekekelso]

You need a certain amount of infrastructure in order to run a SOG. Airports, hotels, transportation, restaurants, etc. Population of a city is a reasonable gauge for how much infrastructure exists. Plus you need enough of a population to buy event tickets, become volunteers, etc. That second point probably isn't an issue for the very connected cities in Western Europe... but is a huge problem for someplace like Qatar.

Another reason you need a "big" city to host the Olympics is you need lots of people to make use of all the "stuff" the Olympics leave behind.

However, the IOC could scale back a bit. The seating requirements for venues is all about ego.

[baron-pierreIV]

It's not the number of athletes but the number of officials, security, television crews, etc that have grown.

ATHLETES

Barcelona 1992: 9,356

Atlanta 1996: 10,318

Sydney 2000: 10,651

Athens 2004: 10,625

Beijing 2008: 10,942

London 2012: 10,568

Tokyo 2020 25,000

MEDIA PERSONNEL

Barcelona 1992: 13,000

Atlanta 1996: 15,000

Sydney 2000: 16,000

Athens 2004: 21,500

Beijing 2008: 24,500

London 2012: 21,000

Tokyo 2020 178,000

That's why you need cities of at least 20 million by 2020. 24 million by 2024, etc., etc.

[Hansfromdenmark]

Hi agian

I can´t seem to find out how to "quote" you, so I hope you can find out what my comments are for.

Regarding "Refshaleøen" i really dont think there is any room in that area for more than 1-3 events. The place there is very small, and Again, the infrastructure in that corner is not good, so in my opinion it is not there the Olympic village should be.

Regarding the size of a city and the infrastructure it is in my opinion not necessarily that a city with 4 million has better infrastructure than a city with 2 million. And may I Again say, that in a circle around Copenhagen in 80 km we are over 3 million people, with great infrastructure to and from Copenhagen...

Regarding that Rio dont use the athletics stadium for the opening and closing ceremonies dit surprice me. That detail I have missed out on. Has that ever happen´d before? And will the Olympic flame then not be at the athletics stadium?

On the question "Why Copenhagen?", well... I say because it can be a fantastic fairy tale event, with fantastic crouds and organisation in top. There could be beatiful shots from the sailing competetion with the beatifull "Øresundsbro" to Sweden in the back. The "Open Water Swimming" competetion could swim pass "The Little Mermaid" to "Nyhavn" and underway pass our royal residence "Amalienborg" for exsample, but there many many options I think. To make it short, simply because "We can do it and make a small bird to a big beautifull swan, likea fairy tale. If we take other big cities, like Boston, What does those have that are World wide known attractions? I cant mention any... Perhaps its me though.

Regarding housing, as I earlier told Copenhagen grows with 10-20.000 people a year and we do need more and more Apartments, Regarding the stadums, yes there will be perhas more temporarilly stadiums than other games. But why not recognize at first, that we can´t use them after, and plan for that for some of them at the beginning, in stead of letting them be years after. That said the Olympic village with aprox. 30.000 people after the games of course need sporting fascilities. Of course not with the 10.000 seats for spectaters. But I cant see why you cant build a indoor arena with temporarily seatings arond, and after the games simply remove the seating, make a wall or 2, and have smaller sports halls for the every day use. With that growing of people there are good use of those fascilities. Indoor sports like Badminton and handball is very popular in Denmark and i know many small Towns with 2-4000 people dont have capacity enough en one sports hall, so why should a new Olympic village with 30.000 people, and perhaps more in the future, not could use perhaps 8-10 small regular sports halls? Well that´s just my opinion.

Regarding convincing the IOC that it is better with 60.000 than 80.000 and so on is perhaps a big question. They say that the Olympic costs goes to far. But as you say, are they really willing to accept a bit smaller stadiums? good question. But if the rest of the bid has great potentiale, perhaps it could succeed. It is really not to know, if they are talking one thing, and voting another.

Is there any where an official list of seating requirements for the different sports? I have searched with no luck.

Kindly regards
Hans

[FYI]

Regarding the size of a city and the infrastructure it is in my opinion not necessarily that a city with 4 million has better infrastructure than a city with 2 million. And may I Again say, that in a circle around Copenhagen in 80 km we are over 3 million people, with great infrastructure to and from Copenhagen...

Depends in what context you're defining this. Of course in the literal sense, a city of 4 million in let's say India or China, isn't necessarily going to have better infrastructure than a city of 2-3 million in Scandinavia. But in the bigger countries of Western Europe, you can bet your bottom dollar that cities of 4-5 million would have greater infrastructure. And it's precisely these Western European cities (not to mention whatever large U.S. city might be in the mix, too) that a hypothetical Copenhagen bid would find themselves in competition with. Even in the greater scope that you're describing of over 3 million, still falls way short of Paris' 10 million or Berlin's 5 million, for examples. Not to mention how those cities are iconic beacons of Europe.

Regarding that Rio dont use the athletics stadium for the opening and closing ceremonies dit surprice me. That detail I have missed out on. Has that ever happen´d before?

.No, it hasn't. But it looks like the IOC was willing to make that exception in order to finally take the Games to South America. That was the pull in the 2016 race.

On the question "Why Copenhagen?", well... I say because it can be a fantastic fairy tale event, with fantastic crouds and organisation in top. There could be beatiful shots from the sailing competetion with the beatifull "Øresundsbro" to Sweden in the back. The "Open Water Swimming" competetion could swim pass "The Little Mermaid" to "Nyhavn" and underway pass our royal residence "Amalienborg" for exsample, but there many many options I think. To make it short, simply because "We can do it and make a small bird to a big beautifull swan, likea fairy tale. If we take other big cities, like Boston, What does those have that are World wide known attractions? I cant mention any... Perhaps its me though.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Copenhagen wouldn't make for a beautiful setting, because it would. I've been there & it truly is a beautiful city. But again, unless the IOC is willing to scale-down their grandiose expectations, then how is Copenhagen going to compete. And as far as Boston goes, that's not a given either. They're still exploring their 'options' as to what they could offer to entice the USOC to make them their bid candidate, let alone the IOC. And it's looking pretty grim at this point. So I wouldn't use Boston as your gauge, but again, more the likes of Paris, Berlin, Rome, Istanbul or South Africa or even Los Angeles, where the IOC could see potential where the Olympic Movement might make the most impact.

[woohooitsme83]

Hi agian

I can´t seem to find out how to "quote" you, so I hope you can find out what my comments are for.

Use the MultiQuote button (next to the quote button on the bottom of the post) for each post you want to respond to. Every time you click "MultiQuote", a box (on the bottom right corner) will appear and say "reply to # quoted posts" and "clear". Just click the "reply to # quoted posts" button when ready and it should paste. If you are using the mobile version, then click on the post and press the "Quote" button and you should be sble to respond to it one by one. If you only want to reply to one post, then simply use the "Quote" function.

[Gangwon]

The quoting button doesn't work for everyone. I'm not able to quote either.

[FYI]

A 'premium' member that can't use the quote button. Hmmmm.